2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO. I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in. Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be! My only comment to this is that it's exactly what I'd expect from Cowherd and that comments like these are why, rather than hoping he (and many of his ESPN brethren) would talk more baseball, I'd prefer they talk less.

It's an interesting debate for sure. Do we want baseball to be closer to a tightly knit group of smart fans, or broad-reaching national pastime that everyone pays attention to? I lean towards the latter, which is why I always gladly welcome the Yankee bandwagoners to Queens when the opportunity arises.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't know how anybody gets such a high bullshit-per-word ratio into one entire essay. He threatens (but makes no commitments) to turn in his voting privileges. Somewhere at the Hall of Fame, somebody is saying, "Holy shit! Murray Chass still has voting privileges?!"

Funny thing-- the Times' writers, by paper policy, don't vote any longer for BBWAA awards, right? So the only reason he even retains the ability to vote is his dismissal.

[metirish]

From the Chass piece

For some reason, the news media have not talked about the former catcher and steroids the way they have talked about Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. When I worked for The New York Times, I tried more than once to write about Piazza and steroids, but the baseball editor said I couldn�t because his name hadn�t been linked to steroids. I can link his name to steroids, I countered, but I had to wait until I started this Web site to talk about Piazza�s acne-covered back, a generally accepted telltale sign of steroids use. Piazza�s passionate fans ridiculed me for that assertion (and surely will again) and ignored the fact that Piazza�s back cleared up as soon as baseball began testing for steroids. A book for which Simon & Schuster paid Piazza an advance of $800,000 or $750,000 had been scheduled for publication next month, but there�s talk about a delay because of a dispute between the publisher and Piazza over the subject of steroids and their presence in the book. The Hall of Fame wouldn�t look too good if Piazza were elected next week, and then his book came out with his admission that he used steroids. But maybe the Hall doesn�t care about Steroids. This was a headline on its Web site the other day:

For some reason????

So, he is indicating that Piazza is going to drop a steroid blockbuster is his book?

It's Murray Chass, I know.

[dinosaur jesus]

Has Chass maybe got Jack Morris mixed up with Cannonball Morris? Back when Chass was just a young beat writer on the Post-Gazette, Cannonball was about the biggest thing in Pittsburgh. Him and Pud Galvin. (These Bert Blylevens and Curt Schillings aren't fit to pull Pud's pud.) Or maybe in his mind they're the same guy, like Tony Fossas and Casey Fossum are for me. Forty-one wins in '86, and twelve shutouts! Three World Series titles! Four hundred and twenty-four wins in all, and the nastiest mustache in baseball! If that's not enough for the Hall of Fame, they need to build a new Hall just for him. Them. Whatever.

[metirish]

His "About" profile on his blog, sorry, site is hilarious....it's like he wants to be a wanker.

http://www.murraychass.com/?page_id=23

[Guest Swan Swan H]

metirish wrote: His "About" profile on his blog, sorry, site is hilarious....it's like he wants to be a wanker. http://www.murraychass.com/?page_id=23

Careful, there... one of his grandchildren may be on this forum.

[HahnSolo]

While 'willing' the Twins over the Braves in that game 7, did Morris also will Lonnie Smith to stumble around the base paths like Lindsey Lohan stepping out of a Meatpacking District club?

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, sometimes I feel like Chass is really savvy about keeping his profile up with provocative nonsense, and the joke is all on me, feeding him more page hits than he can handle.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: It's an interesting debate for sure. Do we want baseball to be closer to a tightly knit group of smart fans, or broad-reaching national pastime that everyone pays attention to? I lean towards the latter, which is why I always gladly welcome the Yankee bandwagoners to Queens when the opportunity arises.

I welcome intelligent, informed debate at any time or place.
The problem is that ESPN has become such the 800-lb gorilla of sports talk that what they do & say sets the agenda for much of the discussion in this country (in many smaller cities and towns the only choice for sports info is an ESPN-controlled outfit) and ESPN has decided to cast their lot almost entirely with football and basketball. The NFL because it's such a ratings monster; the NBA because the national TV package is a (mostly) ESPN/ABC product; and with NCAA football & hoops because they control virtually all of that too as those two provide most of their programming from August through April.

As a result, the hosts who man the everyday jobs up in Bristol are hired specifically because they're gridiron & hoops geeks knowing that when baseball does get on the four-letter network it's as a ghettoized sport and can be shunted off to the side and dealt with by the guys on BB2N and a handful of specialized journalists like Olney & Kurkjian, etc. What remains can generally be divided into two groups: those who are indifferent to the sport of baseball; or those who are openly hostile to it. Given the option of having that crew discuss baseball, I'd prefer they simply take a pass.

[Ceetar]

I'd argue that that crew isn't exactly doing justice to football or basketball either. But more people into baseball, even through the ESPN filter, will eventually be more people into baseball. After some get invested into it once ESPN tells them to (and thinking like 15 year old kids here) they'll be baseball fans and as they discover more intelligent discussion, we'll have more fans we actually enjoy conversing with. I'm not suggesting _I_ will watch/listen to the shows to hear what they're blathering on about, but I'd be fine with them telling people to watch baseball and hoping one or two breaks the shackles.

[Edgy MD]

It's like that in a lot of media culture. Programming tends to ape the leader, because you as long as your programming is parallel you can entertain and sell the notion that you too might someday be the leader.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Edgy MD wrote: It's like that in a lot of media culture. Programming tends to ape the leader, because you as long as your programming is parallel you can entertain and sell the notion that you too might someday be the leader.

It confounds me that the leader became the leader with programming that is basically Sports Shouting and that others want to imitate that.

bsnpbOA739o#!

[Edgy MD]

Market position, baby. They were first and by the time others got into the game, they had the audience and the money. Now, with Mickey Mouse money behind them, they couldn't falter if they tried.

[ashie62]

Kinda like MTV...

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?

I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

I guarantee there is ZERO chance that the writers don't elect anyone this year. There would be an uproar, and a huge economic hit to Cooperstown. The rules would be changed pronto, and the BBWAA would find itself with a very different process.

It's not like there is a constitutional amendment out there somewhere decreeing that the BBWAA gets to vote for the Hall of Fame. The Hall board could change the rules to make the Crane Pool Forum pick the honorees with a vote at the drop of a hat.

The writers saw how the veteran's group's rules were changed -- several times -- when it kept not electing someone.

Would there be all kinds of weeping and gnashing of teeth from the writers if this happened? Sure. But guess what? The Hall likes seeing thousands in town for induction weekend, and people coming through the turnstiles and buying stuff. It's not going to tolerate a bunch of self-important blowhards saying "No one is worthy" where there are a bunch of players with 500 (or more) homers, 3,000 (or more) hits and 300 (or more) wins sitting out there un-elected.

They might keep it with the writers, but there would be changes in the number of people voting or the percentage -- or opening the doors to other types of media people voting.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Guest

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Oh, and Murray Chass. This is DEPLORABLE:

"A book for which Simon & Schuster paid Piazza an advance of $800,000 or $750,000 had been scheduled for publication next month, but there�s talk about a delay because of a dispute between the publisher and Piazza over the subject of steroids and their presence in the book.

The Hall of Fame wouldn�t look too good if Piazza were elected next week, and then his book came out with his admission that he used steroids. But maybe the Hall doesn�t care about Steroids."


but there�s talk about a delay

What? "There is talk of..."

Either you have the information or you don't. This is, at best, horribly lazy. But I go right to sleazy. You don't hurt someone unless you are damn sure you are right.

That whole piece reads like a bitter old man with a vendetta.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy? I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?

Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic.

[Gwreck]

1. Jeff Bagwell
2. Craig Biggio
3. Jack Morris
4. Dale Murphy
5. Tim Raines
6. Curt Schilling
7. Lee Smith

This would be the ballot of everybody's favorite Mets beat writer working for ESPN.

I know he's not very popular around here with some and on this issue, I will agree.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

What an awful ballot, it's as though he wanted to appeal to -- and piss off -- all perspectives simultaneously.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

"I plan to wait a year on Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and Mike Piazza before placing them on my ballot."

This, too, is bull. Will their stats improve over the next year?

And how can he vote for Bagwell and not Piazza, assuming that he is making Piazza wait because of whispers (And Murray Chass)

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The logic is, I think, Bagwell already paid the price for suspicion by being unelected in his 1st year of eligibility.

[Edgy MD]

And how does he un-necessarily publish it and not spill a drop of ink to explaining his thinking?

Is this the year everybody decided to go crazy and not tell us?

[metsmarathon]

metirish wrote: From the Chass piece For some reason, the news media have not talked about the former catcher and steroids the way they have talked about Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. When I worked for The New York Times, I tried more than once to write about Piazza and steroids, but the baseball editor said I couldn�t because his name hadn�t been linked to steroids. I can link his name to steroids, I countered, but I had to wait until I started this Web site to talk about Piazza�s acne-covered back, a generally accepted telltale sign of steroids use. Piazza�s passionate fans ridiculed me for that assertion (and surely will again) and ignored the fact that Piazza�s back cleared up as soon as baseball began testing for steroids.

jesus christ murray. if you're such a steroidal bacne savant, then the only reason there's no link between piazza and steroids is because you are not nor ever were a journalist.

ya know what, you worked for the mother fucking times. the new york times. you don't think they would have wanted to be all over a biggish story like steroids in baseball? no, no, they're no news organization, i suppose...

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

metsmarathon wrote: metirish wrote: From the Chass piece For some reason, the news media have not talked about the former catcher and steroids the way they have talked about Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. When I worked for The New York Times, I tried more than once to write about Piazza and steroids, but the baseball editor said I couldn�t because his name hadn�t been linked to steroids. I can link his name to steroids, I countered, but I had to wait until I started this Web site to talk about Piazza�s acne-covered back, a generally accepted telltale sign of steroids use. Piazza�s passionate fans ridiculed me for that assertion (and surely will again) and ignored the fact that Piazza�s back cleared up as soon as baseball began testing for steroids. jesus christ murray. if you're such a steroidal bacne savant, then the only reason there's no link between piazza and steroids is because you are not nor ever were a journalist. ya know what, you worked for the mother fucking times. the new york times. you don't think they would have wanted to be all over a biggish story like steroids in baseball? no, no, they're no news organization, i suppose...

Imagine, the Times wanted more evidence than bacne before inflicting harm on an athlete. And Chass is indignant about that!

[Edgy MD]

I'm starting to guess that the whole "Piazza copped to it off the record" bit is either true or is believed to be true among enough writers, and they've spread the word around to each other: "Mikes dirty --- pass it on... but you can't write about it."

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy? I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now? Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic.

Oh my, this is HORRIBLE!


"I am choosing to speak loudly by using silence.

This is my way of expressing my anger to baseball. Angry that the powers-that-be turned their backs while this was going on. Angry that it took us so long to shine light on it."

So he's protesting because HE AND OTHER SPORTSWRITERS "took so long to shine a light on it?"

I'm not sure this is the same guy I worked with. But he covered the Yankees while he was in Bridgeport, so it probably is. I have a funny story about him on the company softball team.

[Frayed Knot]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I guarantee there is ZERO chance that the writers don't elect anyone this year. There would be an uproar, and a huge economic hit to Cooperstown. The rules would be changed pronto, and the BBWAA would find itself with a very different process.

So what, the BBWA members are going to conspire amongst themselves to rig the vote so as to not offend the Cooperstown Chamber of Commerce?

It's not like there is a constitutional amendment out there somewhere decreeing that the BBWAA gets to vote for the Hall of Fame. The Hall board could change the rules to make the Crane Pool Forum pick the honorees with a vote at the drop of a hat.

Do you honestly believe they'd take a nearly 80 year process and turn it upside-down on the basis of one year's result? ... a result which, as pointed out somewhere above, has already happened before.



Look, I don't think there's going to be an empty ballot either, but not for any of the above reasons. The choices are simply too strong for all of them to get passed up.
I'm not buying any of the doomsday scenarios.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy? I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now? Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic. Oh my, this is HORRIBLE! "I am choosing to speak loudly by using silence. This is my way of expressing my anger to baseball. Angry that the powers-that-be turned their backs while this was going on. Angry that it took us so long to shine light on it." So he's protesting because HE AND OTHER SPORTSWRITERS "took so long to shine a light on it?" I'm not sure this is the same guy I worked with. But he covered the Yankees while he was in Bridgeport, so it probably is. I have a funny story about him on the company softball team.

It is him. I happened to linger at the site where another recent column plead swith Bud Selig to retire 21 forever and ever for Roberto Clemente, citing an event in Bridgeport honoring him. This is a guy who obviously stopped paying attention a long time ago.

[Edgy MD]

Starting to become increasingly clear how that has become the norm, and these ballots have become a burden to them.