GiDPs / NOT

[Frayed Knot]

By my count (and, Hell, I could have missed some) the NYM infield has, over the last 15 innings, turned five ground balls with the potential for nine outs into a total of two outs even though only three official errors were tallied.
In the end the miscues almost certainly cost us the last two games.


MONDAY
* 7th inning, game tied 1-1
Gee puts the first two hitters on 1st & 2nd, then gets a come-backer which he promptly throws into CF.
Should have had two outs, got none.
Two runs score that inning and the Mets go on to lose by one run


TUESDAY
* 8th inning, Mets up by one
With a runner on 1st and no outs, a GiDP ball to Muffy is muffed and he settles for the out at 1st only.
No error is scored because he got an out, but the runner he fails to get later scores and ties the game.

* 10th inning, Mets up by one
- Leadoff error at SS (Valdespin)
- 2nd batter bounces one to Ike who bobbles it and has to settle for the out at 1B, runner moves up
- A wild pitch and a walk later (1st & 3rd) the potential game-ending DP ball (although we should only need one out) is booted again and the game is tied. It also forces Parnell to throw 14 additional pitches to escape that inning with the game still tied on a night where we were down two relievers and pulled the started after five leaving Terry to rely on a rookie call-up in his 2nd ML outing.


And this doesn't even count relay Quintanilla somehow bounced over the backstop & screen which allowed a run to score.



Ain't gonna win games that way.

[Edgy MD]

Tim Teufel, I'm sure, is a great leader of men, but he was also the worst in the league at turning two back in his time. I'm glad to see him on the Mets staff, but I can think of two dozen men without trying (and maybe a woman or two) that I'd rather see as our big league infield instructor.

Pretty funny to see Steve Lombardozzi Jr. playing for the Nats, as it was the emergence of his father that allowed the Twins to swap Teufel to the Mets.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Tim Teufel, I'm sure, is a great leader of men, but he was also the worst in the league at turning two. I'm glad to see him on the Mets staff, but I can think of two dozen men without trying that I'd rather see as our big league infield instructor.

is there a correlation? between the physical ability to do it and the ability to teach others to do so?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

We all knew the D was gonna be lousy this year, it's just so disheartening to see it play out.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: We all knew the D was gonna be lousy this year, it's just so disheartening to see it play out.

there's a difference between 'subpar' and what happened last night. plus it was Quintinilla and Valdespin who weren't exactly the ones in the equation. Tejada, Cedeno or Turner and we win that game.

[nymr83]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Tim Teufel, I'm sure, is a great leader of men, but he was also the worst in the league at turning two. I'm glad to see him on the Mets staff, but I can think of two dozen men without trying that I'd rather see as our big league infield instructor. is there a correlation? between the physical ability to do it and the ability to teach others to do so?

He must be PERFECT for the job, haven't you ever heard the saying "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

[Frayed Knot]

In fairness to Valdespin (not that I'm in the mood to be) he's what, the fifth option out there behind Tejada - Cedeno - Turner - Quintanilla
We know now why Terry said he doesn't really view him as an option in the infield and, like I said in the IGT, my mind immediately flashed back to Mel Mora and that series against Boston. The difference then is that no one was coming back from the DL anytime soon (I assume SOMEONE will come back soon) which prompted the trade for Bordick, yadda yadda yadda.

[Edgy MD]

haven't you ever heard the saying "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Yeah, I'd don't buy that shit at all. My experience is those who can't marry somebody richer than them.

I don't know a lot of things. I do know that Bill Mazeroski had very little success teaching people to turn two like he did. But I'd rather have somebody that could in that position, than somebody that couldn't.

When it comes to pitching coaches and hitting coaches, I'm more comfortable to with teachers who weren't successful themselves. But I think something like turning the double play has a higher ratio of learned skill:natural ability. So I'd like a guy I knew learned the skill.

Just staying in the family, I've got Doug Flynn, Willie Randolph, Jose Valentin, Roberto Alomar, Edgardo Fonzarelli, Joe McEwing, Bud Harrelson, Felix Millan, Tim Foli, Alex Cora, Fernando Vina, and um... Tim F. Bogar. Twelve.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

RE: Can-do teacher vs. Can't-do teacher

It also depends on what on-field skill we're taking about. From all I've read and heard about the matter from folks who know better than I do, infield defense appears to be-- at least when we're differentiating between solid and shaky-- a matter of precision, of your ability to reproduce proper form and technique so as to minimize the amount of mistakes your all-too-fallible body will make.

Teufel was either not good at this, or unable/unwilling to practice to develop this. Either way, it doesn't portend great things about his ability as an instructor in this regard.

[smg58]

The problem with nearly all these grounders was not the actual turning two part, but fielding the ball cleanly in the first place. That's not really something a major-league instructor should need to teach.

[Frayed Knot]

Tough to hang a lot of this on Teufel when the biggest problems in turning DPs lately has been getting the elementary task of getting the ball to actually stick in the glove of the fielder plus getting pitchers to hit large targets from 60 feet away. Muffy's turns this year, something you'd think we be tops on Timmy's agenda, have actually looked increasingly smooth IMO.

cross-posted with smg


The 'we need Ike's defense even if his bat suxx' argument (for those who are inclined to advance that particular one) is losing steam too. He's looked sloppy on a number of occasions.

[TransMonk]

True, Ike is not looking like a major leaguer in any way right now.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ike's gotta get the boot. I don't even care if he thinks that AAA won't help him, it's about helping us.

[nymr83]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ike's gotta get the boot. I don't even care if he thinks that AAA won't help him, it's about helping us.

Who replaces him? I'm not looking to move Murphy off 2nd right now with all our injuries in the SS/2B group, could it be Duda? That leaves an outfield of Bay-Niewenhuis-Torres-Hairston and I guess Rottino as 5th OF/backup 1B... I think I like that setup better than the one where Rottino gets sent down and Niewenhuis sits to get Bay his ABS... I'd send Ike down to acxtivate Bay.

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: Who replaces him? .

Duda/Rottino

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

It wouldn't be the most intelligent use of resources but I'd bet Nieuwy could handle a first baseman's glove if we asked him, in the event they don't want to move Doodoo for fear of interrupting whatever progress he's making in the outfield.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, I spit on any such concerns the Mets might have. Move an actual athlete from the outfield to first while leaving a golem out there? That's Jerrythink, is what it is.

[Lefty Specialist]

Ike's defense is slumping along with his bat. I do think the Valley Fever is affecting both.

He has to go down because he's killing the team. I imagine they'll keep him around through the Yankee series because there's the Little League dimensions in RF for him to aim at. But after that, it's addition by subtraction.

Duda played first last season for a good stretch, and while he's no Keith Hernandez, he wasn't horrendous either. Rottino spells him on tough lefty days.

Ike either gets his act together in Buffalo or they send him home to take antibiotics and get prepared for next year. He's just an albatross right now.

[Vic Sage]

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, I spit on any such concerns the Mets might have. Move an actual athlete from the outfield to first while leaving a golem out there? That's Jerrythink, is what it is.

yeah, this.

Once Bay is activated, there's just no more excuse for Ike's continued existence on the major league roster. With Bay in LF, Torres in CF and Nieu/Hairston in RF, Duda (+Rottino) at 1b makes the most sense.

as far as IF defense goes, where was that post where Ceetar proclaimed Valdespin an adequate everyday SS option, in Tejada's absence?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Who would have anticipated that we'd all be agreeing that Bay is more valuable than Davis? Especially since Bay hasn't stopped sucking yet.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: as far as IF defense goes, where was that post where Ceetar proclaimed Valdespin an adequate everyday SS option, in Tejada's absence?

Doubt it exists. and I if said adequate I was thinking more Justin Turner levels than Me playing there levels. (I would've gotten that ball) I knew the guy had a made a billion errors at SS. I've never thought he's even deserved a callup.

[Vic Sage]

my bad; i must've misremembered.

Get Valdy back in the OF, in a platoon in RF. Put Duda at 1b. Put Davis on the bench (and sent down when Bay returns).