Coaching Changes

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AdamRubinESPN Adam Rubin
Bench coach Ken Oberkfell, bullpen coach Jon Debus, third base coach Chip Hale, first baes coach Mookie Wilson out.
Hitting coach Dave Hudgens, pitching coach Dan Warthen remain in roles

The New York Mets today announced that Bench Coach Ken Oberkfell, Third Base Coach Chip Hale, First Base Coach Mookie Wilson and Bullpen Coach Jon Debus will not return to the major league club for the 2012 season. Tim Teufel will take over as Third Base Coach and Ricky Bones will become Bullpen Coach. Hitting Coach Dave Hudgens and Pitching Coach Dan Warthen will return to Manager Terry Collins� staff in the same positions next year. Hale declined an offer to remain on Collins� staff to pursue another Major League coaching opportunity. Wilson and Debus will be offered other positions within the organization. Teufel was the Manager of the Buffalo Bisons (AAA) of the International League for the 2011 season and Bones was Pitching Coach. The Mets will announce further additions to the Major League coaching staff in the coming weeks.

[Edgy MD]

Brutal!

And, insofar as I connect Wilson and Oberkfell with the team's defensive breakdown, sadly warrented.

Accountability's a bitch. Chip Hale, though. What's the story there? Interviewing for the Red Sox job?

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I wonder if Wally Backman gets moved up to AAA.

Rubin writes:
Sandy Alderson indicated Wally Backman likely replaces Tim Teufel as Buffalo manager.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Guest

[metirish]

Wharten stays with all those changes?

Brutal indeed.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Guest

[Benjamin Grimm]

So Mookie will be offered another job in the organization, but Oberkfell won't? I'm sure it's because of the Metliness factor.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Chip Hale is close with Bob Melvin, expected to show up in Oakland.

Huggiebear was the only one with a contract past this year. Oberkfell is the surprise I guess, from what I ready Terry liked him but his Met roots are Omar Era.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Hale already signed a 2year deal to be Melvin's co-pilot.

[Edgy MD]

So Mookie will be offered another job in the organization, but Oberkfell won't? I'm sure it's because of the Metliness factor.

Well, considering he's historically served between uniform stints as a brand ambassador, that's somewhat appropriate.

Mookie's a resilient guy. The Mets have taken that uniform away from him seemingly a half dozen times by now, and he keeps coming back for more. The guy has his own trucking business and drives trucks in the offseason. Long rides through the night with just himself and the radio for company. He doesn't need the uniform to affirm his identity. He's good with who he is.

[Ceetar]

As I'm sure has been made clear, I dislike keeping Warthen.

Especially when the biggest reason cited is things like 'preparedness' and that the pitchers really like him. Screw his relationship with Mike Pelfrey..they can chat on the phone between starts.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Tracky says Mook was whacked for subpar outfielding and Debus punished for failures of the bullpen and catching corps. Next bench coach said to prefer to have ML managing experience, maybe a guy like Jiggleman would be a good choice for us, given we're looking up at the Nats now.

Ceets, with all due respect I don;t see how fans have any insight to what works and doesn't work wrt coaching, unless its something obvious like third-base decisions etc

[Edgy MD]

I thought the team's outfielding deteriorated the last time they had Mookie, also. Cedeno deteriorated as a basestealer as well.

I would guess you don't want guys teaching defense necessarily who brought prodigious athletic skills to the job, but rather guys who had something less but mastered the mechanics of it. I'm not sure who I would cite as an example.

Interestingly, Terry inherted Warthan but stuck with him, just like Willie inherited Peterson and stuck with him.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceets, with all due respect I don;t see how fans have any insight to what works and doesn't work wrt coaching, unless its something obvious like third-base decisions etc

I'm fully aware of that. I'll claim the same for GM. All we have to go on is news bytes and results.

He certainly doesn't seem to be 'top of the line' which is what I think the Mets should be working for. All of Alderson's BS about being a world-class organization and all that. But the starting pitching is the biggest weakness, so find the guy that's going to get every last ounce of value out of it.

From my observations, Warthen doesn't seem to have provided much in terms of growth. Niese tailed off in 2010, and he started doing a similar struggle near the late part of this season, which maybe attributed to his injury, which Warthen apparently let him pitch through. Warthen may be good at preparation, but that only goes so far. (And yes, most of the starters stayed pretty healthy. ) But what about adjusting to changing scouting reports? Take Pelfrey in 2010. Started brilliantly as, literally, one of the best pitchers in the league. Attributed in part to a new pitch. League starts catching up to him, and he has a disastrous August. (or was it July? it's a blur) He finished okay, but where was Warthen to help him readjust his thinking, his pitch setups and sequences? You see similar things in-game too. Pitchers, like Gee ,cruising through 3-4 and then all of a sudden the batters are all over it. Where's Dan to come out and say "Dillon, they're sitting on your change up 2-0, you're too predictable. Make 'em chase here." It's that kind of insight I want from a coach. I don't see/hear it from Dan.

You hear some of these guys talk pitching and they just sound smart. You hear Pelfrey or Warthen talk and it doesn't ring with the same intelligence.

Yes, this is just my observations, and it doesn't mean it's true. Maybe they are trying to alter pitch sequences and the pitcher just isn't executing. Maybe it's simply mechanics wearing down, and there's nothing Warthen can do because preach repetition as they fail. It's going to be my personal goal to try to pay a little closer attention to specific pitches and this stuff next year, but that doesn't make me (or any other independent observer) an expert in figuring out what's going on between Pitcher, Catcher and Coach when they develop a game plan. I just know it hasn't been working.

[Guest attgig]

Edgy DC wrote: I thought the team's outfielding deteriorated the last time they had Mookie, also. Cedeno deteriorated as a basestealer as well. I would guess you don't want guys teaching defense necessarily who brought prodigious athletic skills to the job, but rather guys who had something less but mastered the mechanics of it. I'm not sure who I would cite as an example. Interestingly, Terry inherted Warthan but stuck with him, just like Willie inherited Peterson and stuck with him.

where's joe mcewing?

[Edgy MD]

I wouldn't mind seeing Warthan go, because I hate seeing guys *CoughPelfrey* get ahead 0-2 with runners on base, and then give up that advantage by bouncing curveballs away, only to come back inside and groove one 2-2 or 3-2 for the heartbreaker. I associate that sequence withe Warthan.

But it may be over-simplistic for me to believe it came with him or leaves with him.

I don't know who to hang for pitchers being pulled while they're still effective --- Warthan? Collins? Debus? Going to Byrdak with two out in the seventh and a guy at first or nobody on? Really? Stop that shit.

[Edgy MD]

where's joe mcewing?

SuperJoe is the Chicago AAA manager, probably getting at least a token interview for the big job, but he's a very intriguing nomination. It may speak to the team's intention with Wright. He probably would coach infielders better than outfielders, though.

[Frayed Knot]

Peterson was forever frustrated with Pelfrey as well, often commenting that the one he saw in the bullpen was not the one who wound up on the mound.
Point being that at some point it becomes about Pelfrey rather than the coaches.

[Vic Sage]

i think the coaches should just be called in, one at a time, so Sandy can hit them with a sock filled with batteries until they spit blood.
just, you know, because.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think they should hire Joe Pignatano, Yogi Berra, Eddie Yost, and the ghost of Rube Walker.

(It's amazing that most of Gil Hodges' coaching staff is still alive.)

[Gwreck]

It's a real shame to lose Hale. I never understood why Wally Backman would have been any better than Chip as manager.

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John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: ... Next bench coach said to prefer to have ML managing experience, maybe a guy like Jiggleman would be a good choice for us, given we're looking up at the Nats now.

Nice going:

NYPost_Mets Mike Puma by AdamRubinESPN Source says Larry Bowa and Jim Riggelman are among the candidates team will consider for bench coach. Both are tight with Collins

.

[TransMonk]

Not for nothing, but I'm still a little weary of Riggleman and the way he left DC.

I'm not sure I want a guy who quit on his team because of a personal disagreement over his contract having any influence on this team.

[metirish]

Bowa I would have thought was a bit like Collins, tightly wound, not a bad choice though.

[Edgy MD]

I'm cool with Riggleman, and his choice. Even if he did overplay his hand, his threat was called and he made his move. I might have felt different if it was a player, my team, or a standings position above fourth place, but for some reason, I kind of approve. Nobody likes being a lame duck.

[Valadius]

Don't see how Warthen can continue to stick around, Collins ought to be able to choose his own pitching coach, and if they have another shitty season he's out the door and we try again with another managerial staff.

[Edgy MD]

I get the idea that Collins' has chosen him.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Edgy DC wrote: I'm cool with Riggleman, and his choice. Even if he did overplay his hand, his threat was called and he made his move. I might have felt different if it was a player, my team, or a standings position above fourth place, but for some reason, I kind of approve. Nobody likes being a lame duck.

And the fact is, he's a leading candidate for a "heartbeat away" slot only months later, not like it was total career suicide after all.

[Edgy MD]

He's held four managerial positions --- three of them he's gotten by being in the right place at the right time after somebody loses the job in-season. The fourth he got replacing Tom Trebelhorn after a strike year and a top-down shakeup by the Cubs, hired by his friend and ally, Ed Lynch.

I think he's got a sense of how the game is played. Work hard, take a little shit, make friends, make conservative choices, write your bread and butter notes, and be ready to mount your horse when the officer in front of you goes down. Field promotions are a big part of the game, and friendly, conservative, hardworking experienced guys have been falling upward for as long as there have been managers.

Anybody asks him about the resignation, he can say, "I was doing my job, I had the team winning, but they were renewing everybody else's contract but mine, and in fact had already hired my successor. You understand that that's not a manageable work environment, and the best thing I could do for the team was to get myself out of the way and let them get started under Davey as soon as possible."

[TransMonk]

Meh. He can say whatever he wants. Were the conditions tough for Riggleman personally? Probably. But, there's been a lot of talk about honor lately, and I think as the leader of a group of men, the last thing you can do is quit on them.

This topic has been covered before. I'm fine with him as bench coach if it comes to pass. He's been around baseball long enough that I don't question his smarts. But if Terry gets hit by a bus and Riggleman is promoted to manager, I'll have some concerns.

Sandy better have a contract extension ready.

[Vic Sage]

But if Terry gets hit by a bus and Riggleman is promoted to manager, I'll have some concerns.

i continue to have concerns if that bus doesn't show up.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Add two more names to the list of potential bench coaches:

Adam Rubin wrote: Former major league managers Jim Riggleman, John McLaren, Bob Geren and Larry Bowa appear on the New York Mets' internal list of candidates to become bench coach, organization sources told ESPNNewYork.com.