2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

[Valadius]

Rubin: Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Larkin, Morris, Murphy.

[Valadius]

O'Connor: Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Morris, Smith.

[Guest Edgy DC]

ESPN had eighteen of their hall of fame voters reveal their ballots (link here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/news/story?id=5984898). Check out the ballot of News Editor Barry Stanton, who voted for five (5) players: Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Jack Morris BJ Surhoff

Today's ballot is brough to you by the letter M.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

ESPN had eighteen of their hall of fame voters reveal their ballots (link here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/news/story?id=5984898). Check out the ballot of News Editor Barry Stanton, who voted for five (5) players: Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Jack Morris BJ Surhoff

Where have you heard the name Barry Stanton before? Hmmmm

Westchester Journal News editor's memo re sports columnist's resignation

From: Freeman, Henry Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:32 PM To: TJN-NEWS-Daily Subject: Resignation Everyone, I wanted to give you a heads up that the following story will appear in tomorrow ' s newspaper. Journal News Column Violates Standards; Columnist Resigns Numerous sentences and phrases that appeared in a Nov. 2 column by The Journal News sports columnist Barry Stanton were identical or similar to those that first appeared in an Oct. 31 column by Joe Posnanski of the Kansas City Star. Both columns told the story of Jake Porter, a mentally challenged football player from McDermott, Ohio, who was allowed by both teams to score a touchdown at the end of a game. The Journal News ethics code and the Gannett Newspaper Division Principles of Ethical Conduct by Newsrooms prohibit plagiarism. Reporters and columnists are expected to include proper attribution in their stories, making it clear when the work is by another journalist or when it is taken from another source. Stanton has resigned from the newspaper. Right after transmitting this message to you, I will be joining DME/Sports Mark Leary to discuss this matter with the sports staff. If anyone has any questions or would like to see copies of the two columns, please drop by my office or see your DME. It is a sad day for all of us that Barry ' s relationship with the newspaper has ended on this note. Henry Posted Monday, November 11, 2002

I guess he didn't want to be seen as copying someone else's work ... again. Jesus, what a tard.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Valadius wrote: O'Connor: Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Morris, Smith.

Well, he wrote in Jeter, too, I'm sure.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

It's like he's deliberately flipping the bird at the HoF with those votes. Stanton would've been a lot better served aping Posnanski this time around:

Alomar
Bagwell
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez (Edgar)
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Trammell
Walker

[Frayed Knot]

Just looking over the numbers for Edgar Martinez

- he played only partial seasons at the age of 24, 25, & 26 - totaling less than 250 ABs in those years and just 2 HRs with a modest .336 OBA
- played his first full season at age 27 and made a huge jump to a .397 OBA w/40 XBHs
- after that his OBA was at least .400 (at times as high as .479 !!) in every season until age 41 with the exception of two injury-shortened years (where he fell to a paltry .366 & .387). Over a 5-year span from 1995 to 1999 his OBA was .455

Got a late start and was only a limited player - but was a great hitter and had a helluva peak.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Guys I've Thought Enough About and Have Decided in Favor Of:
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Jeff Bagwell

Guys I Thought Some More About and, Yeah, Support Their Candidacies:
=#408000]Roberto Alomar --- Overrated fielder, but so was Sandberg. Both are in the top ten MLB secondbasemen of all time. Its relevance is dubious, but the Orioles have been lost in the wilderness ever since his loogy.
=#408000]Alan Trammell --- More win shares than Ernie Banks. I'm a big pusher of Trammel and Whitaker.
=#408000]Edgar Martinez --- Hard to argue with those OBPs. A lot of thirdbasemen might have been pushed to DH if it was available to them --- Ron Santo, Stan Hack --- but Martinez wasn't really that bad a fielder.

Guys I Like but Couldn't Quite Pull the Trigger On:
=#FFBF00]Larry Walker --- He had a 130 OPS+ his last year. Another year or two, even playing 100-120 games, might have kicked me over the edge.
=#FFBF00]Dave Parker --- Most of his greatness came before he turned 29, then it was like a decade of goodness. Probably tough to be a big guy playing so much on Astroturf.
=#FFBF00]Kevin Brown --- It hurts his candidacy with me that I really kinda don't like him.
=#FFBF00]Juan Gonzalez --- A little defensive value might have helped him.

Guys I Gave Some Thought to and Rejected:
=#FF0000]Harold Baines
Bret Boone
John Franco
Don Mattingly
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Benito Santiago
Lee Smith

Guys I Gave Almost No Thought to and Rejected:
=#FF0000]Carlos Baerga
Marquis Grissom
Lenny Harris
Bobby Higginson
Charles Johnson
Al Leiter
Tino Martinez
Ra�l Mondes�
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Kirk Rueter
B. J. Surhoff

[metsmarathon]

Guys I Gave Some Thought to and Rejected: Harold Baines Bret Boone John Franco Don Mattingly Jack Morris Dale Murphy Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Benito Santiago Lee Smith Guys I Gave Almost No Thought to and Rejected: Carlos Baerga Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Al Leiter Tino Martinez Ra�l Mondes� John Olerud Rafael Palmeiro Kirk Rueter B. J. Surhoff

i don't think he should actually get in, but john olerud has the 12th highest WAR on the ballot, per bbref, at 56.8, snuggled between mark mcgwire's 63.1 and crime dog's 50.5.

he's got 17 more WAR than mattingly, 19 more than parker. 30 more than benito santiago, and 35 more than brett boone. yet he gets dismissed out of hand.

boo.

[Guest Edgy DC]

All I thought about him was that I consider him to be comparable to but not as good as Keith Hernandez. And the world took a good look at Keith and passed.

WAR is tricky. There are different formulae for it. Bobby Murcer does terrible by BB-R WAR meaurements, yet Bill James has him as a top-twenty rightfielder.

[Valadius]

Overnight update:

HOF % Leaderboard through 130 Full BBWAA Ballots� 93.1 - Alomar 79.2 - Blyleven 67.0 - Larkin 50.0 - J. Morris 46.2 - Raines 40.0 - Bagwell 39.2 - L. Smith 32.0 - Edgar Martinez 26.2 - Trammell 20.0 - McGwire 15.4 - McGriff 13.8 - L.Walker 12.3 - Palmeiro . 9.2 - D. Murphy . 6.2 - Mattingly . 5.4 - D. Parker . 4.6 - Baines . 3.1 - K. Brown . 2.3 - Juan Gone . 1.5 - John Franco . 0.8 - Tino . 0.8 - Olerud (!) . 0.8 - Surhoff . 0.8 - Pete Rose (Write-in) Top Partial Ballot Leaders� (160 Full/Partials) 133 - Alomar 121 - Blyleven

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/beat/Hall%20of%20Fame/

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Go Barry Larkin. Raines and Martinez ought to be doing better. Trammell too.

If I had a vote I'd feel afraid I'd be one of those douchy guys who want to randomly punish Bagwell.

[Valadius]

And one year later, Marty Noble:

Marty Noble Ballot: Alomar, Larkin and Dave Parker. A year later, I have voted for Alomar, the best defensive second baseman I've ever seen. I promised to vote for him, and I have, though uncomfortably. I still can't get past Blyleven's 250 losses. That's too many for a 287-game winner, no matter the number of shutouts and strikeouts. Blyleven lost 17 games in his lone 20-win season and lost 10 or more 16 times. In my mind, he produced two, perhaps three Hall of Fame seasons. Not enough.

[MFS62]

I wonder how many of the "I'll never vote for a steroids user" voters voted for Bob Gibson.
Yes, he used steroids.
And he admitted it.
Even did a commercial for them.
Y'see, Bob had asthma. And he did a TV ad for a nasal inhalant asthma medicine. They all contain steroids. That's the key ingredient.

Of course, its probably on the list of ok steroids for which you can get a medical waiver from the MLB office.
But I place that in evidence in the category of "never say never" for those writers who are saying "never".

Later

[HahnSolo]

Really, Marty, losses as your sole Blyleven barometer?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

HahnSolo wrote: Really, Marty, losses as your sole Blyleven barometer?

He's voted for guys almost solely based on RBI considerations (Perez, IIRC), so... yeah, pretty consistent.

Hey, at least he'll continue to stand behind his-- all due respect to Marty-- dumb-as-eating-fiberglass vote publicly!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Go Barry Larkin. Raines and Martinez ought to be doing better. Trammell too. If I had a vote I'd feel afraid I'd be one of those douchy guys who want to randomly punish Bagwell.

And that's the problem with it, frankly. It's a random punishment, based entirely on aesthetics.

Bagwell was not a borderline-HoF first baseman in toto (like, say, Palmeiro); he's close to top-ten, for Chrissakes. He had a ridiculous 12-year peak, standing out even in his offensively-inflated era. Also nary a mention in the Mitchell Report or any other compendium of supposed users, however dubious or unsourced-- hell, he didn't rate a passing mention in the Canseco book. He's losing votes based on an oh-so-careful, post-hoc reading of photographs.

FUCK, guys-- you can't read a stat sheet correctly. You're going to adjudicate steroid use by eyeballing Polaroids?

On the plus side, Raines does appear to be slouching toward admission, if slowly. Give him a few more years post-Henderson, and I think he'll break free of that long shadow for HoF daylight.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Guest

[G-Fafif]

HahnSolo wrote: Really, Marty, losses as your sole Blyleven barometer?

Blylometer, technically speaking.

Nothing against Bert, but his prospective induction is going to unleash Chris Berman with Bert "Be Home" Blyleven all over again, isn't it?

[Guest Edgy DC]

If Tim "Torrential" Raines gets his justifyable induciton, I'd take the Bermanisms with him.

[metirish]

Why is Noble so uncomfortable voting for Alomar? , I don't get his unease, it's not like Alomar spit at him or something.

[G-Fafif]

Non-Alomar Met predictions:

Olerud: 11
Franco: 7
Baerga: 4
Leiter: 0
Harris: 0
Higginson: 0

This is assuming that long-rumored trade for Bobby Higginson comes down before 2 o'clock.

[Vic Sage]

Guys I've Thought Enough About and Have Decided in Favor Of: Bert Blyleven Tim Raines Jeff Bagwell Guys I Thought Some More About and, Yeah, Support Their Candidacies: =#408000]Roberto Alomar --- Overrated fielder, but so was Sandberg. Both are in the top ten MLB secondbasemen of all time. Its relevance is dubious, but the Orioles have been lost in the wilderness ever since his loogy. =#408000]Alan Trammell --- More win shares than Ernie Banks. I'm a big pusher of Trammel and Whitaker. =#408000]Edgar Martinez --- Hard to argue with those OBPs. A lot of thirdbasemen might have been pushed to DH if it was available to them --- Ron Santo, Stan Hack --- but Martinez wasn't really that bad a fielder. Guys I Like but Couldn't Quite Pull the Trigger On: =#FFBF00]Larry Walker --- He had a 130 OPS+ his last year. Another year or two, even playing 100-120 games, might have kicked me over the edge. =#FFBF00]Dave Parker --- Most of his greatness came before he turned 29, then it was like a decade of goodness. Probably tough to be a big guy playing so much on Astroturf. =#FFBF00]Kevin Brown --- It hurts his candidacy with me that I really kinda don't like him. =#FFBF00]Juan Gonzalez --- A little defensive value might have helped him. Guys I Gave Some Thought to and Rejected: =#FF0000]Harold Baines Bret Boone John Franco Don Mattingly Jack Morris Dale Murphy Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Benito Santiago Lee Smith Guys I Gave Almost No Thought to and Rejected: =#FF0000]Carlos Baerga Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Al Leiter Tino Martinez Ra�l Mondes� John Olerud Rafael Palmeiro Kirk Rueter B. J. Surhoff

um, Ed... where's Larkin? He didn't even get dismissed out of hand?

[Guest Edgy DC]

metirish wrote: Why is Noble so uncomfortable voting for Alomar? , I don't get his unease, it's not like Alomar spit at him or something.

He holds the spit thing in high contempt.

"I don't care that Hirschbeck forgave Alomar for spitting at him; I haven't."

um, Ed... where's Larkin? He didn't even get dismissed out of hand?

Larkin's in. I lost him in the cutting and pasting, but he's a standard bearer.

[G-Fafif]

Edgy DC wrote: metirish wrote: Why is Noble so uncomfortable voting for Alomar? , I don't get his unease, it's not like Alomar spit at him or something. He holds the spit thing in high contempt. "I don't care that Hirschbeck forgave Alomar for spitting at him; I haven't." Larkin's in. I lost him in the cutting and pasting, but he's a standard bearer.

Also thought he was stealing money in 2002-2003. Which he basically was.

[Guest Number 6]

Nice article by Davidoff today in the Daily News. Not breaking new ground, but he does call out the anti-Bagwell argument for what it really is.

[Valadius]

Jayson Stark says pretty much all I would say.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Number 6 wrote: Nice article by Davidoff today in the Daily News. Not breaking new ground, but he does call out the anti-Bagwell argument for what it really is.

Jeez, you had me excited that Davidoff joined the Snooze (I'd trade John Harper straight up, Long Island, what do you say?)

I admit I'm suspicious of all those Houston players in the Caminitti Era. Bags had 6 home runs in 859 minor league plate appearances. Six! 859!

[Benjamin Grimm]

The big announcement is about 20 minutes away.

[Guest Number 6]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Jeez, you had me excited that Davidoff joined the Snooze (I'd trade John Harper straight up, Long Island, what do you say?)

Whoops! Those papers blend together for me. My news is all internetty.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I admit I'm suspicious of all those Houston players in the Caminitti Era. Bags had 6 home runs in 859 minor league plate appearances. Six! 859!

Bags had plenty of doubles and triples in the minors, the way his power developed isn't close to unique, and there's no hard evidence of his usage that we know of, let alone proof. It can't be more than suspicion and guilt-by-association, not exactly a fair standard.

Anyway, I'm sure you know all this. I can't really argue too much with suspecting that Bagwell used, but it's kinda shit that suspicion is the only argument against him.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I have to wonder... will the same questions arise about Mike Piazza two years from now? Or will it all be drowned out by the talk of Sosa, Bonds, and Clemens, who will also each be in their first year of eligibility?