BIE 2.0

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Fair enough, Edge.

But as far as performance, FK? Anemic bat aside-- and he's equaling, if not starting to surpass, This Year's Castillo-- the defense has been game-changing; Fangraphs' defense metrics (thanks to interpolation of John Dewan's +/-, getting less murky by the day) like his fielding to the tune of 21 fielding runs above average. My eyes don't disagree-- I can think offhand of at least three inning-ending DPs Castillo would not have turned, and his range-- especially laterally-- appears to be orders-of-magnitude better at this point. I'll take 2 errors every few weeks if it means that he's getting to a lot more balls than the other guy... which seems to be the case.

Has he been worth a game in the standings? Run production/prevention-wise, it would take a historically good stretch to put up 1 WAR over the course of a 2-week period. Has he been a change for the better? My eyes and the stat sheet say yes.

[Fman99]

Tejada is great, Castillo sucks a fuckin cock. Put that in your fuckin fangraphs pipe. Sorry I am full of gin.

[Frayed Knot]

I think any characterization of Tejada's defense over this short span as "game changing" is optimism gone wild.
Wanting Tejada to be a vast upgrade over Castillo is vastly different from pretending that it's already the case.

[Zvon]

G-Fafif wrote: In case you're wondering, "What about Wayne Garrett?" he came up through the Braves system, playing four seasons for their minor league teams before being Rule 5 drafted in December 1968. Best Rule 5 drafting the Mets ever made, I'm guessing...but he wasn't homegrown.

I did not know he came from Atlanta.
And he kicked some Brave ass in the '69 playoffs.

G-Fafif wrote: Also, the Mets have never thrown a no-hitter.

....................soon baby.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I think any characterization of Tejada's defense over this short span as "game changing" is optimism gone wild. Wanting Tejada to be a vast upgrade over Castillo is vastly different from pretending that it's already the case.

I meant that the defense in relation to Luis Castillo's was game-changing... the upgrade, IOW. I miswrote. (I was going to let it go because it's minor, but if you'd like to split hairs: are you really bringing up his hitting into a triple play once as representative of his skill with... I don't know, anything?)

Tejada has more power than Castillo NOW and he's got a 17-year-old's frame at age 20; he's also put up a .330 (and climbing) OBP compared to "OBP specialist" Castillo's .347*. He's put up the same amount of WAR and more Fielding Runs (both cumulative stats) in a fraction of the time on the field.

I realize you're more or less playing devil's advocate here. Still... you're wrong. Parse my language all you'd like, but make no mistake-- he has been an upgrade. But "half-decent" represents a significant upgrade over "useless;" a lamed Castillo having a down year is useless, while Tejada's been half-decent (and as long as he keeps up a modest level of production offensively, he'll continue to be so). If you disagree about that... man, we're watching different games.

*SSS Alert!

[Zvon]

These fangraphics and dense metrics,....they frighten me and make me want to howl at the moon.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Zvon wrote: These fangraphics and dense metrics,....they frighten me and make me want to howl at the moon.

The guts underlying a lot of these stats are sometimes REALLY simple... there's just a lot of legwork to get the info. John Dewan's +/- stuff is all about range-- chart every ball hit at a dude, figure out how much ground he covers and how much he makes plays within that area, then compare to the league average (changes every year) to see where he stands compared to other left fielders, say. Sometimes, it's even simpler than counting plays-- Tom Tango's Fan Surveys just ask fans of each team to rate their own team's fielders (and anyone they feel they've seen a LOT of), and are a nice supplement to the Wizard-of-Oz-ish UZR and its ilke.

Takes a little getting used to, granted, but it tells you a LOT more about a guy's fielding than fielding percentage, say.

[Frayed Knot]

I meant that the defense in relation to Luis Castillo's was game-changing... the upgrade, IOW. I miswrote. (I was going to let it go because it's minor, but if you'd like to split hairs: are you really bringing up his hitting into a triple play once as representative of his skill with... I don't know, anything?) Tejada has more power than Castillo NOW and he's got a 17-year-old's frame at age 20; he's also put up a .330 (and climbing) OBP compared to "OBP specialist" Castillo's .347*. He's put up the same amount of WAR and more Fielding Runs (both cumulative stats) in a fraction of the time on the field. I realize you're more or less playing devil's advocate here. Still... you're wrong. Parse my language all you'd like, but make no mistake-- he has been an upgrade. But "half-decent" represents a significant upgrade over "useless;" a lamed Castillo having a down year is useless, while Tejada's been half-decent (and as long as he keeps up a modest level of production offensively, he'll continue to be so). If you disagree about that... man, we're watching different games.

Yes I'm partially playing devil's advocate here, and of course Tejada is an upgrade over an injured Castillo, and of course at 20 y/o he's got the better future ahead of him.
But just like CF's post earlier about how we shouldn't get too giddy and talk about Ike = Olerud yet, and like the premature cries from earlier seasons about how Argenis Reyes was the future, I just think that anyone not named Castillo is too quickly given credit for everything up to and including the sunrise based on the name alone.
I don't believe the Met record would be even one game different had Castillo not gotten hurt and Tejada were still in Buffalo; I think the trade in offense is probably a wash at best (and not as good as Castillo v.2009) and the defensive upgrade is being exaggerated - turning DPs is one area I think both Castillo and Cora do quite well. My only point in bringing up the several errors (including dropping a peg from RF for a sure out) and the triple play is to imagine the reaction if Luis had done either much less both.

[Guest Edgy DC]

are you really bringing up his hitting into a triple play once as representative of his skill with... I don't know, anything?

Representing nothing but itself, it's part of the current output that doesn't stack up against Castilllo as well as all that.

Representing his skill, no, but I thought we were looking at performance.

[G-Fafif]

Ensuing debate on offense notwithstanding, this was meant as an expression of exhilaration over the defense demonstrated thus far in their young career as a unit.

The exhilaration continues here.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: are you really bringing up his hitting into a triple play once as representative of his skill with... I don't know, anything? Representing nothing but itself, it's part of the current output that doesn't stack up against Castilllo as well as all that. Representing his skill, no, but I thought we were looking at performance.

Okay, then does it fairly represent even a sliver of his performance? Or does it represent a one-time, highly-luck-dependent result, into which the only performance components are that he smacked the living fuck out of the ball and isn't quite Usain-Bolt-ish enough to outrun a well-oiled 5-4-3?

It's weird, I know, but save walk rate (and hitting into triple plays, apparently), there is literally no aspect of the game at which Tejada's bite-size performance has not equaled or surpassed Castillo's bite-size performance.

I don't believe the Met record would be even one game different had Castillo not gotten hurt and Tejada were still in Buffalo...

I'm having a little bit of an issue isolating plays on B-R this morning, but I'm pretty sure that Pelfrey doesn't have ten wins without him.

My only point in bringing up the several errors (including dropping a peg from RF for a sure out) and the triple play is to imagine the reaction if Luis had done either much less both.

Of course there are idiots who'd boo him for hitting into a triple play. Of course there are some who'd roll their eyes (full disclosure: my first instinct would be to do so) when Castillo drops something*. There are people who'd have traded Beltran after 2005-- hell, after 2006, even ('cause, y'know, he's a clutchless loser when he's not hitting multiple game-winning postseason home runs).

Oddly, those guys who simply say Castillo sucks and Tejada looks good are right here. Just maybe not as right as they think they are.

G-Fafif wrote: The exhilaration continues here.

It's like you've got a mirror held up to my insides.

GET OUT OF MY INSIDES, PRINCE!

*One can make a convincing argument that it's more imperative for a fielder with diminished range to make a higher percentage of plays that he gets to than it is for a guy who gets to more grounders/liners/screamers/lollipops... but that's kind of irrelevant here.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Okay, then does it fairly represent even a sliver of his performance? Or does it represent a one-time, highly-luck-dependent result, into which the only performance components are that he smacked the living fuck out of the ball and isn't quite Usain-Bolt-ish enough to outrun a well-oiled 5-4-3?

I think the point has been fairly made that it represents the sort of thing that gets distorted by the tired familiarity-breeds-contempt self-hating faction of the fanbase if it happens to Castillo, but is (rightly) taken in perespective when coming from a new face.

I like Tejada and hope the Mets never trade for anybody again.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: I think the point has been fairly made that it represents the sort of thing that gets distorted by the tired familiarity-breeds-contempt self-hating faction of the fanbase if it happens to Castillo, but is (rightly) taken in perespective when coming from a new face. I like Tejada and hope the Mets never trade for anybody again.

YAY! ME TOO!

[Zvon]

These fangraphics and dense metrics,....they frighten me and make me want to howl at the moon. The guts underlying a lot of these stats are sometimes REALLY simple... there's just a lot of legwork to get the info. John Dewan's +/- stuff is all about range-- chart every ball hit at a dude, figure out how much ground he covers and how much he makes plays within that area, then compare to the league average (changes every year) to see where he stands compared to other left fielders, say. Sometimes, it's even simpler than counting plays-- Tom Tango's Fan Surveys just ask fans of each team to rate their own team's fielders (and anyone they feel they've seen a LOT of), and are a nice supplement to the Wizard-of-Oz-ish UZR and its ilke. Takes a little getting used to, granted, but it tells you a LOT more about a guy's fielding than fielding percentage, say.

Seriously though.
Thank you for posting that.
Helps me evolve.

I have a poster on the wall in my cave-office.
It says: I WANT TO UNDERSTAND

I was trying so hard here, but,sheeze,
I guess I can never be 100% serious.
I'll make the serious part bold

[G-Fafif]

On page 1 of today's game notes, here, the world that doesn't read CPF or FAFIF learns that a Met record has just been tied regarding homegrown starting infields.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I don't believe the Met record would be even one game different had Castillo not gotten hurt and Tejada were still in Buffalo; I think the trade in offense is probably a wash at best (and not as good as Castillo v.2009) and the defensive upgrade is being exaggerated - turning DPs is one area I think both Castillo and Cora do quite well.

Belated rebuttal, with a massive assist from ESPNNewYork's Mark Simon and Baseball Info Solutions (and a massive SmlSamplSz warning):

The folks at Baseball Info Solutions tell us Tejada had 19 balls hit to him in double play situations at second base this month. He turned 12 of them into twin killings, a conversion rate of 63 percent. That�s a significant improvement over Castillo�s 47 percent conversion rate (the major league average for a second baseman is 52 percent).

[Guest Edgy DC]

So, in theory, he's started three more doubleplays than otherwise Castillo wouldn't have executed.

Considering, if Castillo hadn't gotten hurt, he still would be playing less, and one of those three would be handled by Cora (or Tejada!), it's less than three, and it's hard to believe that meaningfully translates into even one win.

Going forward, terriffic. Trying to make much out of what's already happened though, is probably overexcitement.

But yeah, I'm certainly comfortable with him staffing the position going ahead.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Me too.

Only, y'know... he won't be doing so.

Master of the Secret Lobby wrote: "If Castillo was on the roster, it would be tough for Tejada to stay, as young as he is, at the major league level," Manuel said.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, that should be fine for now. He'll be back.