Fun Hall of Fame trivia

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, my source is Thomas's own account so you can take that for what it's worth, but there's certainly more working against Allen than that, including walking out on his team.

What's the source of the "boy" account?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I remember reading it in a book about the Phils' collapse (this was winter 2007-- I was trying to exorcise something, I guess) and its relation to race in Philly-- "September Swoon," I think. Vivid study... I remember that the author talked to the Phils' FO guys to get their responses to some of the accusations hurled their way since the time. "Muhammad Clay" might have been in there, now that I think about it.

The author does paint a not-so-flattering-- if sympathetic-- portrait of Allen as somewhat defensively manipulative (if that makes sense) during that season. He also details a LOT of stuff that Allen had to deal with just getting from home to park-- not a fun commute.

OE: I remembered the title correctly. And the writer is a historian, name o' William Kashatus.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Bill Kashatus also (a) wrote a book about the 1980 Phils, and ( has writen for the magazine I edit.

I may have to reach out to him and get the skinny.

There's a lot of accounts of Allen's personality being toxic to his teams. I have no doubt that his personality was shaped in part by trauma that he endured, including perhaps some coming from those same teams.

Bill James lists him as second only to Rogers Hornsby in his imaginary ranking of "controversial" personalities. He also puts him one notch ahead of Keef on the all-time ranking of firstbasemen.

[Frayed Knot]

Costas had an interview with Dick Allen recently on the MLBN which I caught part of. FWIW, Allen dismissed the Thomas incident as nothing more than rough humor among friends that was blown out of proportion by others outside the circle. Whether that's a fact or him just trying to soft-pedal one of the controversies in his career was hard to tell. What's not in doubt is that Allen's drinking, late nights, missed appointments, etc., caused a number of his own problems.

[Theoldmole]

Dick Allen got an unfairly bad rap and belongs in the HOF. Besides, he had that great line about AstroTurf: "If a horse won't eat it, I don't want to play on it."

[Theoldmole]

Bill James lists him as second only to Rogers Hornsby in his imaginary ranking of "controversial" personalities.

Wow. Where's this list?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Like I said, it's imaginary (and probably includes just the two of them), but that observation comes in his comments in Allen's ranking in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract. He has a longer essay --- maybe there, maybe elsewhere --- on why Allen is a Hall of Famer on performance alone, but his counter-productive personality dips him below James' threshold.

And not to make too much of the phrase "controversial players" --- in the way he uses it there, he means "really talented player who nonetheless undermined their team to some extent great or small with difficult personalities."

I mean, Cap Anson wasn't controversial? Barry Bonds? Armando Benitez?

[seawolf17]

OPS+ or not, Larry Walker -- and Todd Helton -- are cursed by the perception of Colorado. Unless you want to make some sort of mathematical model for HOF entry, there is virtually zero chance he gets 75% of the vote.

The same way there's no way -- sorry, Rob Neyer, I don't care how many home runs he has -- Rafael Palmeiro will ever get 75%. McGwire and Bonds, a slim maybe; but definitely not Raffy.

[Guest Edgy DC]

There's no moral component to Walker and Helton (and Holliday) playing in Colorado. It's just something that happened to them. So I hope voters will be more willing to entertain an objective sell that adjusts for home environments and still leaves them looking pretty shiiney.

[seawolf17]

I agree with you; I'd love to see Todd Helton in the Hall of Fame. I'm just saying, objectively, that it's not going to happen. At least not right away. Maybe in 2019 when those writers have had more perspective, but not right away, and there's going to be all this outrage when he doesn't get elected right away, because they're not going to get close to 75%, and the thin air is what's going to dismiss lots of votes very quickly.

[batmagadanleadoff]

If I had to guess how the HOF voters would assess Helton and Walker's careers within the context of Coors Field, I'd guess that some of the voters would get it right and make proper and accurate adjustments for the extreme hitter's park. But among those other writers that would fail to properly adjust for Coors, I'd guess that more than half of those would under-adjust and thus, overestimate the value of the two Rockies.

If most writers knew how to adjust for Coors Field (and Dodger Stadium), Mike Piazza would have won the 1997 MVP (his last full season as a Dodger) in a landslide, and Larry Walker would have one less MVP award.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Costas had an interview with Dick Allen recently on the MLBN which I caught part of. FWIW, Allen dismissed the Thomas incident as nothing more than rough humor among friends that was blown out of proportion by others outside the circle. Whether that's a fact or him just trying to soft-pedal one of the controversies in his career was hard to tell. What's not in doubt is that Allen's drinking, late nights, missed appointments, etc., caused a number of his own problems.[/quote:yaaa3l3b]

So... he's a smarter, less affable Mick, born into more unfortunate circumstance?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

If I had to guess how the HOF voters would assess Helton and Walker's careers within the context of Coors Field, I'd guess that some of the voters would get it right and make proper and accurate adjustments for the extreme hitter's park. But among those other writers that would fail to properly adjust for Coors, I'd guess that more than half of those would under-adjust and thus, overestimate the value of the two Rockies.

If most writers knew how to adjust for Coors Field (and Dodger Stadium), Mike Piazza would have won the 1997 MVP (his last full season as a Dodger) in a landslide, and Larry Walker would have one less MVP award.[/quote:1svx9goh]

They seemed to be under-adjusting then. I would put a decent amount of scratch down that a majority of the writers-- or at least a solid Heymanian plurality-- will overadjust come HOF-voting time.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

I dunno, Larry Walker sure looks like a hall of famer to me. Not that it's a be-all, end-all, of course, but check out where he is on this WAR list. He's in an interesting part of that list, sandwiched between Edgar Martinez and Jim Thome (two guys people here might not think of as HOFers) but also among names of players people think of as borderline-types like Alan Trammell, Barry Larkin and Ron Santo but higher than guys people are more confident in, like Alomar, Carter, Biggio, McGwire and Ozzie Smith.

That's a fun list. Also in the mid 60's for career WAR: Kenny Lofton, one spot ahead of Tim Raines, tied with Willie McCovey.

Kenny Lofton! A career-long centerfielder with four gold gloves (whatever they're worth), over 600 stolen bases (at about an 80% clip), a .376 OBP and .423 SLG. Hall of Famer?

[seawolf17]

Kenny Lofton! A career-long centerfielder with four gold gloves (whatever they're worth), over 600 stolen bases (at about an 80% clip), a .376 OBP and .423 SLG. Hall of Famer?[/quote:632rhj0u]
No. He's hurt too much by his moving all over the place, for a lot of reasons. One, he's not as readily identifiable with a particular organization. (Cleveland, I guess.) Two, at least some of that movement was in-season trades to contenders; he was in the postseason eleven times. He has, however, ZERO WS rings. Three, all he really did was run. Nice, but not enough. A nice piece for a good team, but not a HOFer.

[Frayed Knot]

Costas had an interview with Dick Allen recently on the MLBN which I caught part of. FWIW, Allen dismissed the Thomas incident as nothing more than rough humor among friends that was blown out of proportion by others outside the circle. Whether that's a fact or him just trying to soft-pedal one of the controversies in his career was hard to tell. What's not in doubt is that Allen's drinking, late nights, missed appointments, etc., caused a number of his own problems.[/quote:2spthvnk]

So... he's a smarter, less affable Mick, born into more unfortunate circumstance?[/quote:2spthvnk]

Except that I got the idea that there were a lot more missed games, workouts and total disregard for managers with Allen.
Mick, for all his carousing, might not have been in the best shape for all of his games but was not known for simply blowing them off and actually worked real hard to get his beat-up self ready for them - even if the beat-up part was at times self-inflicted.
I don't doubt that the 1960s view of the dangers of an angry black man probably made Allen's rep worse than it was, but he also didn't need a lot of help in making it worse.

[Guest Edgy DC]

He walked out on the 1974 White Sox, toward the end of what had been (for him, anyhow) an excellent season. Chuck Tanner had been given a lot of credit for handling Allen well before that. (Allen had won --- and deserved --- the MVP with the Sox under Tanner in 1972.)

And certainly that credit may come from people with an interest in criticizing Allen. But there are a lot more cases of mistreated black players out there than there are of guys who've walked out on their team.

I'm certain it's complicated. Maybe we don't know the half of it. Maybe his defiance made things better for the black players that followed him. But it sure made it harder on his teams.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

All fair points about Allen, FK and Edge. It all kinda makes me gladder, though, that I was born what/when/where I was.

Bill Kashatus also (a) wrote a book about the 1980 Phils, and ( has writen for the magazine I edit. I may have to reach out to him and get the skinny.

Just caught this. How fabulously weird. Please tell him I really enjoyed-- well, "enjoyed" might not be the right word-- "Swoon."

[Theoldmole]

Monte Ward has to be the most controversial. I mean, starting your own league...

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Monte Ward has to be the most controversial. I mean, starting your own league...[/quote:3rusb2f2]

Hal Chase just looked up from his card game in the corner and scoffed.

[Theoldmole]

Hal Chase was more slimeball than controversial. And he's not in the Hall, is he?

[Guest Edgy DC]

No, sir.

Even if his character could be restored, his numbers aren't so great. Missed some time with suspensions and walkouts also.

Besides, who needs another Yankee?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Oh, I'm no Hal Chase booster. I'm just saying he was damn good-- by all reports, Keith-good with the glove, if not better, and that bat...

[nymr83]

Will Sheffield be the first Marlin in the hall? I can't see what other hat he should wear instead. The numbers are all there I just have a hard time thinking of him as a hall of famer.

[Theoldmole]

Monte Ward, on the other hand, was a hero AND a great player.