Schaefer Voting Discussion Thread

[Frayed Knot]

I'm surprised to see Johan Santana leading so many cards. He showed some guttiness and argued for his manhood and all, but the bottom line is the bottom line, and that bottom line showed four homers and five earned runs in seven innings.[/quote:2qezhmge]

And a key run-scoring double

[Guest Edgy DC]

That's what put him into the net positive column for me.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Plus a nifty double play

[Guest themetfairy]

Don't mess with the Johan!

[Guest Edgy DC]

Same performance by Ollie and he's sucking Meister Brau.

[metirish]

Same performance by Ollie and he's sucking Meister Brau.[/quote:evuhlqg7]


I don't agree with that though. To me it looked like Santana was going right after the hitters even though he didn't have his best stuff. Made some mistakes that got deposited over the wall , mostly solo shots. Other guys get in trouble and start walking the park and next thing you know it's 8 runs they've given up.

Santana battled out there , at times it looked like he was trying to pump himself up as well as his team.....

thankfully I don't drink as I think I'd go thirsty with Edgy as the barkeep.

[Guest themetfairy]

Same performance by Ollie and he's sucking Meister Brau.[/quote:u77s0aro]

I disagree. If he lasted seven innings and had an RBI double, I'd give him some beer.

I remember recently giving someone (maybe Maine) a sip of beer in a game where he sucked on the mound but did something good with the bat.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Pelfrey had one of the worst starts of the year but scored a run.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT200906040.shtml

[Guest Edgy DC]

Oliver Perez has an awful start, but probably less awful than Pelfrey, and goes 1-1 at the plate, and gets ignored. Rightfully, ignored, I think.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI200905020.shtml
http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=11507

[metirish]

Ollie got ignored becasue he's Mexican ....

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, but he only went 2.1 innings in that game. When a starting pitcher eats seven innings, he's contributed something, even if he gives up a lot of runs.

I don't give points to every player who gets a base hit, or even who scores or drives in a run. I tend to try to give more points to fewer players.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I was specifically comparing his start to Pelfrey's

[Benjamin Grimm]

Oh. Okay, then.

But in that game by Pelfrey, only one voter game him anything, and that was a mere quarter point.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yabbut, that's who I was addressing, as she appeared to be holding that game (or one like it) up as a relevant precedent.

[metsmarathon]

johan just misses my top 6 for the game, mostly on the strength of me giving him credit for a "web gem" on the nice snag.

he got a 0.9 with the bat, 0.8 with his arm, and 2.8 with his glove, for a total of 4.40 marathon points, and not enough to best church's 4.90 marathon points. so ryan church gets the 1.1 schaeffer votes, and johan gets nothing. poor fellow.

[Guest themetfairy]

Oh. Okay, then.

But in that game by Pelfrey, only one voter game him anything, and that was a mere quarter point.[/quote:2uk7ju65]

That was probably me. I tend to award a quarter point for a run scored.

A mere hit doesn't generally score beer from me. If Ollie had scored a run, he would have gotten the same sip Pelfrey did.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Same performance by Ollie and he's sucking Meister Brau.[/quote:2ftuk7lh]

Ollie doesn't ever give the same performance-- it's either 0 runs over 7, or he's done after 4-5. Ollie puts on about half of those runners himself via walk/HBP (if not more), and does it in 3-2/3.

From the "But how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" Department: He got hit solidly a total of 5 times-- 4 of them happened to go out.

From the "That's practically Reuschel-ian!" Department: He only let up 9 baserunners in 7 innings-- a still-decent 1.28 WHIP.

From the "F*ck that 'pitcher' noise-- This Man is an ATHLETE" Department: His RBI double wasn't just a contributing hit-- it was crucial to the win.

He gets 1.6 out of me for all that, and the glove save on Victorino.

[Guest Edgy DC]

That was probably me. I tend to award a quarter point for a run scored.[/quote:3724pzp7]

That I understand. What's tougher is seeing how it isn't negated several times ove by the same guy in the same game giving up nine runs, eight earned in less than four innings.

he got a 0.9 with the bat, 0.8 with his arm, and 2.8 with his glove, for a total of 4.40 marathon points, and not enough to best church's 4.90 marathon points.[/quote:3724pzp7]

The bat and the glove, OK, but how is the arm a net positive when he gave up five runs in seven innings? That's a 6.43 ERA.

Yeah, LWFS, that's a low WHIP, but homers ar big H's.

[metsmarathon]

here's the breakdown of santana's evening from me, with a truncated list of all my schaeffer voting criteria:

Statistic	count	multiplier	total
AB	3	-0.2	-0.6
R		1	0
H	1	0.75	0.75
RBI	1	1.25	1.25
BB		0.5	0
SO	1	-0.25	-0.25
LOB	2	-0.5	-1
3B		1	0
HR		1	0
TB	2	0.5	1
LISPw2O	1	-0.25	-0.25
SF/SH		0.5	0
GIDP		-1	0
GARBI		2	0
GARS		2	0
batting	total	-	0.9
...
E		-1	0
DPstarted	1	0.25	0.25
DPturned	1	0.5	0.5
Web Gem	1	2	2
fielding	total		2.75
...
IP	7	2	14
H	8	-0.25	-2
R	5	-0.75	-3.75
ER	5	-0.5	-2.5
BB	1	-0.5	-0.5
SO	2	0.75	1.5
HR	4	-1	-4
W	1	1	1
L		-5	0
HBP		-1.25	0
WP		-1	0
Balk		-2	0
CG		2	0
SHO		2	0
GS	1	-3	-3
QS		5	0
pitching	total		0.75
...
game	total		4.4

the theoretical maximum schaeffer vote that he could have gotten out of his pitching performance is a 0.4, which means that the sum of the 'marathon points' for the top six players in the game was less than 19. that would not have been a good game for the mets, typically requiring both poor pitching and absent hitting.

to convert marathon points into schaeffer votes, i first take the top six positive scores, and then, if they total less than 19, i halve them and that becomes the vote. if they exceed 19, i scale them to 9.5, and award a bonus half point to the top producer.

as wonky as it seems, i end up with voting results that are, more often than not, consistent with the populace, and which were consistent with my initial non-scientific scribblings of how much i thought certain performances are worth, so i think it stands up.

...

in the afore-mentioned pelfrey game, he ended up with a -15.4 for his pitching, and also garnered -1.7 for his hitting, or lack thereof, on the basis of not getting a hit in 2 at bats, with 4 left on base, one in scoring position with 2 outs. that's too much weight for a lone run scored to offset.

[Guest themetfairy]

That was probably me. I tend to award a quarter point for a run scored.[/quote:gekhp79r]

That I understand. What's tougher is seeing how it isn't negated several times ove by the same guy in the same game giving up nine runs, eight earned in less than four innings.
[/quote:gekhp79r]

This is why the Schaefer voting is a composite. We all have different criteria, but so long as we try to stick with them consistently then the final numbers should be pretty robust.

In my voting, someone who has an RBI or scores a run usually gets something. And absent a game when there aren't enough points to go around (like a complete game 11-0 Mets victory), I'll consistently award a quarter of a point for a run scored.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yes but still we discuss.

Five points. The guy just landed a five.

[Guest themetfairy]

Discuss, fine. But don't make it sound like I'm discriminating against Ollie because I give pitchers Schaefer when they produce offensively.

If Ollie scores a run or has an RBI, he'll get the same consideration that I give every other pitcher.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I addressed the Oliver Perez point to everybody.

[Guest Edgy DC]

You, in fact, did give Perez a point for scoring a run in an otherwise failing start.

What my Perez comment initially adderessed was whether he'd get the same general support for the same performance.

It's impossilble to check, because Manuel doen't tend to let pitchers go into the eighth with four runs already on their recoeds. Certainly not Oliver Perez. But he let Santana last night.

It's a literally incomparable performance

[Guest themetfairy]

I'll let others speak for themselves. My hands are clean here.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Voting for Tuesday night's win over the Phillies will close some time on Friday:

Schaefer POTG 6/9/09 - Mets 6, Phillies 5

[metsmarathon]

not that i'm doing so good at the schaeffer voting, but i could definitely set up my spreadsheets to also spit out meister brau points as well. might be a fun parallel project...

[Benjamin Grimm]

Voting for Wednesday night's loss to the Phillies will close some time over the weekend, or on Monday. If you still have a vote to cast, please try to do so today.

Schaefer POTG 6/10/09 - Phillies 5, Mets 4


Also, the Mets have only one player named "Rodriguez" so there's no need to include his first initial when you vote for him. But even though Ramon Martinez is not currently with the club, please be sure to remember to include the first initial when you vote for Fernando Martinez.

It's "Rodriguez" and "FMartinez." Thanks.

[Guest Kong76]

If there was ever a day when the Mets don't need to have ten beer points
disbursed just so it comes out to an even ten, today is the day.

Edgy's system awards Takahashi 4.86 points today yet he bitches and moans
when a starter gets awarded 3, 4, 5 points on a good day?

Of course, knowing Edgy, he could throw "it's my voting and I'll vote how I want
to" in my face (which I've used), but my feeling is that awarding Takahashi 4.86
points today is kind of obnoxious.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

If there was ever a day when the Mets don't need to have ten beer points
disbursed just so it comes out to an even ten, today is the day.