So it's starting to look like a return of Perez

[Frayed Knot]

Or is this Oliver going to say; "Please Fred, I want some more"?


I'm certainly not going to cry over losing out on Lowe ('specially at them prices) but this does now put more pressure on them to cut a deal with Ollie.
The evidence about that they've already made him an offer to the tune of 3x$10mil seems sketchy at this point, not to mention that it sounds even less likely to happen than the 3x$12 did for Lowe.

Hope they don't wind up getting too cute for their own good only to find out that when the music stops we're left without a chair and with the likes of Redding plus other filler.

And, yeah, Sheets is out there too but there hasn't been a peep anywhere that they're interested in going in that direction.

[Benjamin Grimm]

If not Perez, it will probably be Wolf.

Or maybe even Pedro. He's even been getting more talk than Sheets.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Knot's posts are getting steeped in hard metaphors, and he's starting to read like a two-fisted detective.

I told the boss that if you want a date with a pretty girl on Friday, you don't send her half a box of candy on Thursday. Sure, it might turn out that nobody offers her more candy, but the best outcome is you get a date with a pretty girl with an ugly look on her face. The worst case is that you're spending Friday night with a bottle of whiskey and a magazine.

But who listens to me?

Edited January 13, 2009 by Guest

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think getting Lowe cheap was Plan A, but getting him at full retail doesn't appear to have been Plan B.

So, Plan B, reveal yourself!

[metirish]

Ollie has got to be looking at the deal Lowe got and be thinking " hey I'd like a deal like that".

[Guest attgig]

there hasn't been a peep about ollie from anywhere else. i wonder who boras is going to get to one up the mets now.

who needs a mid-rotation guy?



I would actually rather sign BOTH Sheets and Pedro, fight for 4&5 jobs. See where we are post all star break, and conserve them in hopes for playoffs.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Well, there's the Dodgers. They just lost Lowe, yaknow.

I also think the MFYs are an Ollie darkhorse.

[Frayed Knot]

="Benjamin Grimm":1shqku0d]If not Perez, it will probably be Wolf ... Or maybe even Pedro.[/quote:1shqku0d] Both a significant step down from Ollie IMO. And, if they insist on treating either of them as Ollie/Lowe substitutes, it'll give the impression that holding the payroll to a specific number (and a lower one than last year) is a bigger concern to them than improving the rotation. And THAT won't sit well with the teeming millions.

Rockin' Doc Jan 13 2009 09:44 PM

Teeming millions? Is that something like the unwashed masses?

Gwreck Jan 13 2009 10:04 PM

I think Oliver at a "decent" rate was/is clearly the plan B. I wonder if Sheets is Plan "C." Personally, I'd sign both if we can, especially if Sheets only takes a 2-year deal. We're already losing the draft pick on Rodriguez, so Sheets only costs us the 2nd round pick. (PS. Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth for the Brewers? They don't get the MFYs 1st round pick -- it goes to the Angels -- and they don't get ours either if we get Sheets).

Frayed Knot Jan 14 2009 06:41 AM

="Rockin' Doc"]Teeming millions? Is that something like the unwashed masses? Sort of - only without the somewhat negative connotation. It's how newspaper/on-line columnist Cecil Adams of 'The Straight Dope' fame refers to his readers. I stole it from him. The Straight Dope: Fighting Ignorance Since 1973 ]I also think the MFYs are an Ollie darkhorse. I'm not sure the Yanx could sign Ollie even if they wanted to. There's an 'anti-hogging' rule of sorts on the books, one which limits clubs to acquiring only 1, 2, or 3 Type-A FAs in any one off-season depending on how many are available that particular year. This year there were a lot of qualifiers so the limit was 3 - a number the Yanx already reached with Sabathia, Burnett & Teixeira. But then there's a provision which states that you can sign more if your team also loses Type-A or B guys. What I can't seem to find out is whether that means they can sign an extra (in this case 4th) Type-A simply for losing one of their own or whether they need to lose four FAs before they can claim that a 4th Type-A FA is merely replacing what they've lost. Then there's the question on whether or not they've actually "lost" Pettitte yet since he's yet to sign (ditto Pudge-Rod who's a Type and whether Mussina's retirement counts as a lost FA. Mussina did file before retiring but that's usually just a paperwork formality and maybe he has to show in uniform elsewhere before he counts as lost. I don't remember if/when these rules ever came up before so it doesn't seem to be one of those rules that even knowledgeable fans tend to know off the top of their heads.

smg58 Jan 14 2009 07:03 AM

At this point, I think the available player who would improve our team the most is Orlando Hudson. I would focus on bringing him in, and wait for the right bargain on the starting pitching front.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 14 2009 07:10 AM

I too would like to see them turn their attention to Hudson. Maybe they can get him to agree to a bit of a back-loaded contract, which could lessen the sting of paying both him and Castillo too much money over the next couple of years. Presumably, Castillo will be easier to dump as the remaining years on his contract diminish.

metirish Jan 14 2009 07:10 AM

Hudson would be nice but would the Mets eat Castillo's contract and wouldn't they need to move him before they sign Hudson?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 14 2009 07:16 AM

I was trying to propose a scenario where they wouldn't need to dump Castillo first. It may not be all that plausible a scenario, but it was the best I could come up with.

Edgy DC Jan 14 2009 07:46 AM

It's cuh-razy, and it's not like I'm advocating, 'cause I'm not, but I keep thinking that Jake Peavy is still out there. He is, isn't he?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 14 2009 07:53 AM

He is. What kind of players are the Padres looking for in return? I don't remember who was involved in the failed deal with the Braves and the Cubs, other than DeRosa.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 14 2009 07:56 AM

I just did a Google news search on Peavy, and the gist I'm getting is that the Cubs may make an attempt to acquire him, but it's possible that the Padres new ownership might be more inclined to keep Peavy than the previous owners were.

Frayed Knot Jan 14 2009 09:04 AM

="Benjamin Grimm":2icmpe3y]He is. What kind of players are the Padres looking for in return? I don't remember who was involved in the failed deal with the Braves and the Cubs, other than DeRosa.[/quote:2icmpe3y] The Braves deal fell apart when Atlanta wouldn't include their top pitching prospect (one being described as one of the best in the minors at this point). So it would stand to reason that snagging Peavy would mean [u:2icmpe3y]several[/u:2icmpe3y] of the Met top prospects - and even that may not be enough seeing as how most of those are kinda far from being major league ready. Then there's also the no-trade provision that the Alabama-born Jake P-V has threatened to wield against a trade sending him anywhere near the north east. Centerfield Jan 14 2009 09:06 AM I'm guessing PV means Jonathan Niese, Daniel Murphy and Fartinez. Edgy DC Jan 14 2009 09:13 AM The Braves were very close with Yunel Escobar and Gorkys Hernandez and either Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton. The deal fell apart over, dependeing on your report, the Padres wanting Jeff Locke, or the Braves refusing to give Peavy a no-trade. Anybody want to put together an equivelant Met package, feel free. I'm guessing the Mets would be more willing to cave on the no-trade clause. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 14 2009 09:17 AM I don't want no Peavy, so no deal will come from me. Frayed Knot Jan 20 2009 11:51 AM So if Ollie signs elsewhere what kind of pick do we get? Well, it depends on who signs him. * If one of the following teams sign him it'll be a 1st rounder, somewhere between #17 and #33 Dodgers - certainly a prime candidate Marlins - doubt it Cardinals - decent chance unless LaRussa/Duncan think he's unworkable Blue Jays - they're pretty strong on pitching Astros - always tough to read whether they're in a signing or saving mood Twins - probably not White Sox - certainly possible Brewers - they have both several pitching holes to fill and extra picks (via CC & Sheets) to cushion the blow Red Sox - normally yes, but I think they're pretty much set on the mound right now Rays - highly doubtful Cubs - maybe, although already re-inked Dempster * Could be 1st, could be 2nd: Phillies - if Ollie ranks ahead of Raul Ibanez on the Elias formula than we'd snag the Phils' first pick instead of the Mariners. Other way around if not. Angels - same deal as above only with Ollie compared to Brian Fuentes * Any other team signing him would mean being awarded a supplemental pick plus that team's 2nd rounder smg58 Jan 20 2009 12:17 PM ="Frayed Knot":upi1nci7]* Any other team signing him would mean being awarded a supplemental pick plus that team's 2nd rounder[/quote:upi1nci7] Why? Centerfield Jan 20 2009 12:17 PM First 15 picks are protected. smg58 Jan 20 2009 01:21 PM You learn something every day. That's still likely to be two better picks than the one they'd lose if they sign Sheets instead. Frayed Knot Jan 21 2009 07:00 AM ="Centerfield":1qchhe2v]First 15 picks are protected.[/quote:1qchhe2v] Plus there's the Yanqui pick which has already been given away (they've ceded their first 3 actually) just like the Philly & Angel picks have. Only difference there is that I'm sure Ollie doesn't rank ahead of Teixeira & Sabathia. There are also, in addition to Sheets & Perez, 5 other Type-A FAs still on the market who could eat up 1st round picks if/when signed: Juan Cruz, Orlando Hudson, Jason Varitek, Orlando Cabrera, Manny Ramirez

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Teeming millions? Is that something like the unwashed masses?

[Gwreck]

I think Oliver at a "decent" rate was/is clearly the plan B.

I wonder if Sheets is Plan "C." Personally, I'd sign both if we can, especially if Sheets only takes a 2-year deal. We're already losing the draft pick on Rodriguez, so Sheets only costs us the 2nd round pick.

(PS. Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth for the Brewers? They don't get the MFYs 1st round pick -- it goes to the Angels -- and they don't get ours either if we get Sheets).

[Frayed Knot]

="Rockin' Doc"]Teeming millions? Is that something like the unwashed masses?

Sort of - only without the somewhat negative connotation.
It's how newspaper/on-line columnist Cecil Adams of 'The Straight Dope' fame refers to his readers. I stole it from him.

The Straight Dope: Fighting Ignorance Since 1973

]I also think the MFYs are an Ollie darkhorse.

I'm not sure the Yanx could sign Ollie even if they wanted to.
There's an 'anti-hogging' rule of sorts on the books, one which limits clubs to acquiring only 1, 2, or 3 Type-A FAs in any one off-season depending on how many are available that particular year. This year there were a lot of qualifiers so the limit was 3 - a number the Yanx already reached with Sabathia, Burnett & Teixeira.

But then there's a provision which states that you can sign more if your team also loses Type-A or B guys. What I can't seem to find out is whether that means they can sign an extra (in this case 4th) Type-A simply for losing one of their own or whether they need to lose four FAs before they can claim that a 4th Type-A FA is merely replacing what they've lost.
Then there's the question on whether or not they've actually "lost" Pettitte yet since he's yet to sign (ditto Pudge-Rod who's a Type and whether Mussina's retirement counts as a lost FA. Mussina did file before retiring but that's usually just a paperwork formality and maybe he has to show in uniform elsewhere before he counts as lost.

I don't remember if/when these rules ever came up before so it doesn't seem to be one of those rules that even knowledgeable fans tend to know off the top of their heads.

[smg58]

At this point, I think the available player who would improve our team the most is Orlando Hudson. I would focus on bringing him in, and wait for the right bargain on the starting pitching front.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I too would like to see them turn their attention to Hudson.

Maybe they can get him to agree to a bit of a back-loaded contract, which could lessen the sting of paying both him and Castillo too much money over the next couple of years. Presumably, Castillo will be easier to dump as the remaining years on his contract diminish.

[metirish]

Hudson would be nice but would the Mets eat Castillo's contract and wouldn't they need to move him before they sign Hudson?

[Benjamin Grimm]

I was trying to propose a scenario where they wouldn't need to dump Castillo first.

It may not be all that plausible a scenario, but it was the best I could come up with.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's cuh-razy, and it's not like I'm advocating, 'cause I'm not, but I keep thinking that Jake Peavy is still out there.

He is, isn't he?

[Benjamin Grimm]

He is. What kind of players are the Padres looking for in return? I don't remember who was involved in the failed deal with the Braves and the Cubs, other than DeRosa.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I just did a Google news search on Peavy, and the gist I'm getting is that the Cubs may make an attempt to acquire him, but it's possible that the Padres new ownership might be more inclined to keep Peavy than the previous owners were.

[Frayed Knot]

="Benjamin Grimm":2icmpe3y]He is. What kind of players are the Padres looking for in return? I don't remember who was involved in the failed deal with the Braves and the Cubs, other than DeRosa.[/quote:2icmpe3y] The Braves deal fell apart when Atlanta wouldn't include their top pitching prospect (one being described as one of the best in the minors at this point). So it would stand to reason that snagging Peavy would mean [u:2icmpe3y]several[/u:2icmpe3y] of the Met top prospects - and even that may not be enough seeing as how most of those are kinda far from being major league ready. Then there's also the no-trade provision that the Alabama-born Jake P-V has threatened to wield against a trade sending him anywhere near the north east.

Centerfield Jan 14 2009 09:06 AM

I'm guessing PV means Jonathan Niese, Daniel Murphy and Fartinez.

Edgy DC Jan 14 2009 09:13 AM

The Braves were very close with Yunel Escobar and Gorkys Hernandez and either Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton. The deal fell apart over, dependeing on your report, the Padres wanting Jeff Locke, or the Braves refusing to give Peavy a no-trade. Anybody want to put together an equivelant Met package, feel free. I'm guessing the Mets would be more willing to cave on the no-trade clause.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 14 2009 09:17 AM

I don't want no Peavy, so no deal will come from me.

Frayed Knot Jan 20 2009 11:51 AM

So if Ollie signs elsewhere what kind of pick do we get? Well, it depends on who signs him. * If one of the following teams sign him it'll be a 1st rounder, somewhere between #17 and #33 Dodgers - certainly a prime candidate Marlins - doubt it Cardinals - decent chance unless LaRussa/Duncan think he's unworkable Blue Jays - they're pretty strong on pitching Astros - always tough to read whether they're in a signing or saving mood Twins - probably not White Sox - certainly possible Brewers - they have both several pitching holes to fill and extra picks (via CC & Sheets) to cushion the blow Red Sox - normally yes, but I think they're pretty much set on the mound right now Rays - highly doubtful Cubs - maybe, although already re-inked Dempster * Could be 1st, could be 2nd: Phillies - if Ollie ranks ahead of Raul Ibanez on the Elias formula than we'd snag the Phils' first pick instead of the Mariners. Other way around if not. Angels - same deal as above only with Ollie compared to Brian Fuentes * Any other team signing him would mean being awarded a supplemental pick plus that team's 2nd rounder

smg58 Jan 20 2009 12:17 PM

="Frayed Knot":upi1nci7]* Any other team signing him would mean being awarded a supplemental pick plus that team's 2nd rounder[/quote:upi1nci7] Why? Centerfield Jan 20 2009 12:17 PM First 15 picks are protected. smg58 Jan 20 2009 01:21 PM You learn something every day. That's still likely to be two better picks than the one they'd lose if they sign Sheets instead. Frayed Knot Jan 21 2009 07:00 AM ="Centerfield":1qchhe2v]First 15 picks are protected.[/quote:1qchhe2v] Plus there's the Yanqui pick which has already been given away (they've ceded their first 3 actually) just like the Philly & Angel picks have. Only difference there is that I'm sure Ollie doesn't rank ahead of Teixeira & Sabathia. There are also, in addition to Sheets & Perez, 5 other Type-A FAs still on the market who could eat up 1st round picks if/when signed: Juan Cruz, Orlando Hudson, Jason Varitek, Orlando Cabrera, Manny Ramirez

[Centerfield]

I'm guessing PV means Jonathan Niese, Daniel Murphy and Fartinez.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The Braves were very close with Yunel Escobar and Gorkys Hernandez and either Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton. The deal fell apart over, dependeing on your report, the Padres wanting Jeff Locke, or the Braves refusing to give Peavy a no-trade.

Anybody want to put together an equivelant Met package, feel free. I'm guessing the Mets would be more willing to cave on the no-trade clause.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't want no Peavy, so no deal will come from me.

[Frayed Knot]

So if Ollie signs elsewhere what kind of pick do we get?
Well, it depends on who signs him.

* If one of the following teams sign him it'll be a 1st rounder, somewhere between #17 and #33
Dodgers - certainly a prime candidate
Marlins - doubt it
Cardinals - decent chance unless LaRussa/Duncan think he's unworkable
Blue Jays - they're pretty strong on pitching
Astros - always tough to read whether they're in a signing or saving mood
Twins - probably not
White Sox - certainly possible
Brewers - they have both several pitching holes to fill and extra picks (via CC & Sheets) to cushion the blow
Red Sox - normally yes, but I think they're pretty much set on the mound right now
Rays - highly doubtful
Cubs - maybe, although already re-inked Dempster


* Could be 1st, could be 2nd:
Phillies - if Ollie ranks ahead of Raul Ibanez on the Elias formula than we'd snag the Phils' first pick instead of the Mariners. Other way around if not.
Angels - same deal as above only with Ollie compared to Brian Fuentes



* Any other team signing him would mean being awarded a supplemental pick plus that team's 2nd rounder

[smg58]

="Frayed Knot":upi1nci7]* Any other team signing him would mean being awarded a supplemental pick plus that team's 2nd rounder[/quote:upi1nci7] Why?

Centerfield Jan 20 2009 12:17 PM

First 15 picks are protected.

smg58 Jan 20 2009 01:21 PM

You learn something every day. That's still likely to be two better picks than the one they'd lose if they sign Sheets instead.

Frayed Knot Jan 21 2009 07:00 AM

="Centerfield":1qchhe2v]First 15 picks are protected.[/quote:1qchhe2v] Plus there's the Yanqui pick which has already been given away (they've ceded their first 3 actually) just like the Philly & Angel picks have. Only difference there is that I'm sure Ollie doesn't rank ahead of Teixeira & Sabathia. There are also, in addition to Sheets & Perez, 5 other Type-A FAs still on the market who could eat up 1st round picks if/when signed: Juan Cruz, Orlando Hudson, Jason Varitek, Orlando Cabrera, Manny Ramirez

[Centerfield]

First 15 picks are protected.

[smg58]

You learn something every day.

That's still likely to be two better picks than the one they'd lose if they sign Sheets instead.

[Frayed Knot]

="Centerfield":1qchhe2v]First 15 picks are protected.[/quote:1qchhe2v] Plus there's the Yanqui pick which has already been given away (they've ceded their first 3 actually) just like the Philly & Angel picks have. Only difference there is that I'm sure Ollie doesn't rank ahead of Teixeira & Sabathia. There are also, in addition to Sheets & Perez, 5 other Type-A FAs still on the market who could eat up 1st round picks if/when signed: Juan Cruz, Orlando Hudson, Jason Varitek, Orlando Cabrera, Manny Ramirez