Top Buc Winners (Split from 2009 Draft Order)

[Guest AG/DC]

Guys I missed:

Burleigh Grimes: won 48 games in three tours of duty in Pittsburgh.

Steve Blass: had 103 wins from 1964 to 1974.

[Willets Point]

AG/DC wrote: You're pretty dead on. Keep in mind that it's a franchise that goes back to the days when "Pittsburgh" was spelled "Pittsburg" and "Pirates" was spelled "Alleghenys."

I can't remember where I read this but apparently "Pittsburgh" was the original spelling. A nation-wide effort to standardize spelling in the late 1800s dropped the "h" from many "burghs". Pittsburgh was one of the few cities to be able to retain their 'h'. Also, old-timers pronounced the name "Pittsburra" similar to Scotland's Edinburgh.

[Guest AG/DC]

They lost the h at least it for a while. Check it out:

[Guest AG/DC]

I realize that last one isn't quite conclusive. I was looking for a shot of Billy Sunday, but most of his cards show him playing for Chicago. Checkout his barehanded outfield technique, though:

[Willets Point]

AG/DC wrote: They lost the h at least it for a while.

Yeah, the standardizing thing did affect the "h" for awhile in print but apparently the people of Pittsburgh always spelled it with an "h" even if tobacco card makers did not.

I think I read about this in one of Bill Bryson's books on language, but the wikipedia article also sums up the "h" controversy pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Pittsburgh.

[Guest AG/DC]

Well, clearly the guys owners of the team adopted the h-less-ness also.

[seawolf17]

AG/DC wrote: Well, clearly the guys owners of the team adopted the h-less-ness also.

True. They were thinking "Phirates" or "Pirathes" or "Piratesh," but neither of those really sounded or looked right.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

I had to cheat and look up who's number 1. I would never have guessed it. His page on BR is unsponsored, btw. The winningest pitcher in Pirates history and no one could pony up 10 bucks to sponsor his page. They are family, indeed.

[Guest AG/DC]

Cool Pittsburgh pitching statitistic: Honus Wagner pitched 8.3 innings in his career, and the next run he allows will be his first.

[seawolf17]

AG/DC wrote: Cool Pittsburgh pitching statitistic: Honus Wagner pitched 8.3 innings in his career, and the next run he allows will be his first.

NEW YORK (AP) -- Mets GM Omar Minaya announced the signing of reliever Honus Wagner to a minor-league contract with an invitation to spring training. "Seems like nobody's heard from him in a few years," Minaya said. "But this is a guy who has never given up a run, and his agent, Scott Boras, says he'll be in shape by February."

[metirish]

A Pirates blog attempts to answer why they have been so bad.

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/9/7/609478/pirates-tie-record-for-mos

[Willets Point]

AG/DC wrote: Well, clearly the guys owners of the team adopted the h-less-ness also.

How so? I see no evidence of this.

[Guest AG/DC]

It's right there in the article that Wagner has no H on his uniform.

wikipedia.org wrote: Perhaps the most familiar reference to the H-less spelling is on the renowned T-206 baseball card of Pittsburgh Pirates legend Honus Wagner, printed in 1909. Its scarcity, even at the time, combined with Wagner's reputation as one of the greatest players in baseball history, made it the most valuable sports card of all time. The Pirates' uniforms of the time read "PITTSBURG" across the chest, although the portrait of Wagner makes it appear as if there could be a "H" on the end, cut off by the border of the picture. But the caption beneath it reads, "WAGNER, PITTSBURG".

[Willets Point]

I think the H was just cut off.

[Guest AG/DC]

Though that article you link to suggests otherwise, I don't blame you, as evidence is mixed.

Here's Howie Caminitz in 1909:



but there may be some artistic license going on there. Here's Babe Adams, also allegedly from 1909.



Better evidence would certainly be an undoctored photo. At any rate, the cards from the same series as the Wagner card all show P-Town terminateing in G on the player jerseys, so Wagner's wasn't cut off, unless the artist cut it off.

Looking onward. In 1896, we definitely have an H.



In 1897, it's still there. Notice how, in both years, there's mantouching going on to the right side of the photo:



The tender hand-holding is what catches my eye.

In 1901, they were captioning their photos and adorning their letterhead with the H, though the uniform top includes no name in this photo.


As pennant-winners, Fred Clarke's squad seems to be comporting themselves less homoerotically in this shot. The hands are folded over or crossed onto their laps, as if, just before the photo, Clarke yelled, "I don't want to see any ballplayers touching each other --- even inadvertantly --- or you're off my team!"

Homophobe.

Anyhow, here's our first piece of undoctored H-less-ness. It's Hall-of Fame first baseman Jake Beckley.



Though evidence up to this point suggests that any uniform H-dropping occurred after 1901, Beckley's time with the Alleghenys/Pirates started in 1888 and ended in 1896. This would suggest that they switched back and forth on the H more than once, and/or didn't keep their literature and jerseys consistent within a year. One other possiblitiy was that this photo is from 1890, Beckley's season with the Pittsburg Burghers in the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't Players League. It's certainly conceivable that the Alleghenys spelled it one way and the Burghers the other. You can add in the idea that the Burghers wanted to add crediblitity to their new league by spelling the new official way.

But I don't think it holds up. For one, baseball-reference.com lists 1990's National League entry as the "Pittsburg Alleghenys" and 1990's Players Leauge entry as the "Pittsburgh Burghers," and if they draw that distinciton, I've got to believe they have their reasons, suggesting that that's how the teams described themselves. Adn why would the Burghers drop the H from Pittsburgh and not from Burghers?

If anything, it looks like the Burghers chose the spelling of their city and their nickname not to suck up to the new thinking, but to throw a bone to the old school.

In other words, I think Beckley is an H-less Pirate, though we have H-bearers before and after him, and illlustrator retouched H-less guys again in 1909 following.

Here's an H-less montage of postcards from 1908. It adds nothing new to the argument except the interesting note that the Pirates had a player named "Swagina," and they promoted him:



But 1902-1903 has an H in the caption:



Baseball-reference has them described as the Pittsburg Alleghenys through 1990, then adding the H in 1991, the same year they became the Pirates. They never list them without an H again, but those 1909 cards say otherwise.

Maybe they were throwback uniforms.

My conclusion is that they went H-less up until 1890, returned to the H, but still had to deal with third-party folks sticking with the H-less ending, including perhaps card-manufacturers eliminateing the H as they illustrated and colored over posed photos.

_________________________

Side note: A cool thing I found while looking for old Pirates was a turn-of-the-century poster forecasting the introduction of the Segway a century early:

[soupcan]

What's that - a cow catcher on the front of that thing?

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

="soupcan"]What's that - a cow catcher on the front of that thing?

So, not only did that battery-operated box with three inch wheels have to carry adults around uneven cobblestone streets while dealing with wind resistance from foppish hats and tails, it also had to push cattle out of the way?

[soupcan]

What kind of 'new century' is that where livestock are roaming urban streets?

[Guest AG/DC]

[u:3419a71c6f]_______________(1912-1924): 202_____[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Babe Adams_(1907-1926): 194______ (batmags)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]__________(1898-1910): 194__________[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Bob Friend (1951-1965): 191 (Fman 99)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]________ (1885-1889): 171____________[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]________________ (1900-1911): 168____[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Vern Law (1950-1967): 162 (JC Bucket)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]__________ (1924-1933): 143__________[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Rip Sewell (1938-1949): 143 (Rockin__ Doc)[/u:3419a71c6f] [u:3419a71c6f]Pud Galvin (1885-1889, 1891-1892):__ 137 (VC Firecracker)[/u:3419a71c6f]

< Number one guy was a good-looking lefthander from Bearsville, West Virginia. He won 20 four times in five years in the twenties, but never pitched as well after leaving the Bucs. He was the first National League left-hander to win 200 games. He was also a good hitter and would occasionally bat eighth.

< Number three (tied for second, actually) spent his entire career with Pittsburgh. His most similar pitcher at bb-r.com is actually his teammate at number six, and is second most similar is another teammate, Jesse Tannehill. He was nicknamed "The Goshen Schoolmaster," and he would eventually return to Goshen and die there.

< Number five only pitched in seven seasons, but five with Pittsburgh. Nonetheless he makes this list in part by winning as many as 41 games in one seaason. I like that, as pitcher use has changed, the all time win leaders table is as filled with latter day guys as it is with 19th century myths --- as if a pitcher only has X innings in his arm whether you pitch him every inning two days in three and use him up by the time he's 29, or pitch him every fifth day for seven innings and he makes it to 43. Like many Bucs, he defected to the Players League in 1890, but he never appeared after that. Nickname: Cannonball.

< Nuber six is most similar to number three as well. He was considered the best control pitcher of his time. He had a common nickname of the time which was given to the most quiet-living type on each team. He was once quoted as saying "Babe Ruth was the biggest drawback to smart baseball the game has ever known."


< Number eight (tied with Sewell) was a Pirate lifer who started late, pitching with them from age 31 to 40. He had a reputation as a heavy drinker. Bill James compares him to the Hernandez brothers (Orlando and Livan) for his capacity to change arm angles and speeds to get batters out. He also allowed very few hits despite low strikout rates, as a postumous flip off to Voros McCracken.