By The Way

[Elster88]

Kazmir being on the AS roster hurts me a lot more than I thought it would.

[Valadius]

Pelfrey getting good is taking most of the sting out of it for me.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Zambrano actually being good would have taken some of the sting out of it. Pelfrey's sudden improvement has nothing to do with Kazmir. In fact, it actually makes the Kazmir debacle more painful when I think of what the Mets rotation could be like for the next few years if it had Kazmir, Pelfrey, and Maine to build around..

[Guest AG/DC]

Under the bridge. We've won nine in a row. Gotta look forward.

Advocate for the next Kazmir.

[Gwreck]

This was already Kazmir's second all-star selection, by the way.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

="Rockin' Doc"]In fact, it actually makes the Kazmir debacle more painful when I think of what the Mets rotation could be like for the next few years if it had Kazmir, Pelfrey, and Maine to build around..

Hey, did you forget about me?


I'm only 29, you know.

Or are you saying that the Mets wouldn't have Johan if they had Kazmir? Cuz in that case, it might be a wash.

[Mex17]

Pelfrey and Kazmir are, in a way, two separate entities in that one is a righty and the other a lefty.

So, yes, we still have our righthanded top gun from the farm but the one who should rightly (no pun intended) be our top lefty from the farm is wearing a Tampa Bay Rays uniform in the All-Star game!!

I will NEVER stop being pissed off over that trade.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Firecracker - "Hey, did you forget about me?"

Doh! How could I have forgotten about Johan Santana? A thousand apologies to Johan.

I guess the argument could be made that had the Mets kept Kazmir, that they likely would have never acquired Santana, but that was not the point I was trying to make. I simply forgot about him while making my post. I guess I'm now qualified to be the NL All Star manager, since I too have overlooked one of the elite pitchers in the league.

[Guest AG/DC]

Mex17 wrote: I will NEVER stop being pissed off over that trade.

Well, Jeez, die angry, I guess. But no amount of rage is going to undo it.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, it's really not worth getting so worked up over.

[metirish]

I hope Kazmir has a long successful career with the Tampa Rays.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Guest

[soupcan]

Safe to assume that of Maine, Santana and Pelfrey, one of those guys would not be here if Kazmir was.

Besides - Kazmir's been a frequent DL visitor since he's been in the majors and all of the three the Mets have got have been pretty sturdy so far.

I vote wash.

[Centerfield]

Mex17 wrote: Pelfrey and Kazmir are, in a way, two separate entities in that one is a righty and the other a lefty.

They're also separate entities in that one is one person, and the other is another person.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Centerfield wrote: They're also separate entities in that one is one person, and the other is another person.

Whoa! You lost me there!

[Centerfield]

Do you mean that you're confused? Or have I literally misplaced you somewhere?

[Theoldmole]

That's not so bad. I have a friend who's never forgiven the Mets for trading Jose Oquendo.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Centerfield wrote: Do you mean that you're confused? Or have I literally misplaced you somewhere?

The idea of two different people not being the same person is just too high concept for me.

I guess you're just a lot deeper than I am.

[Centerfield]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I guess you're just a lot deeper than I am.

Are you calling me fat?!?!?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yes. I suppose I am!

[Centerfield]

What a jerk. I hope that skin crawling thing is chronic.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

AG/DC wrote: ="Mex17"]I will NEVER stop being pissed off over that trade. Well, Jeez, die angry, I guess. But no amount of rage is going to undo it.

I am convinced that the Kazmir trade was one of the best things ever to happen to the Mets.

It was so bad that it really forced them to shake things up.

No trade probably means no Omar, which means no Pedro, which means no Beltran which means no 2006 division title.

As dysfunctional as things are, compare them to the Howe era and what was going on then.

We're better off. And if Kazmir can lead the Jays past the MFYs for years, all the better.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

="metsguyinmichigan"]I am convinced that the Kazmir trade was one of the best things ever to happen to the Mets. It was so bad that it really forced them to shake things up. No trade probably means no Omar, which means no Pedro, which means no Beltran which means no 2006 division title. As dysfunctional as things are, compare them to the Howe era and what was going on then. We're better off.

I agree. It would have been nicer to have competent ownership that could have had the guts to make the right moves before a debacle of the Kazmir magnitude, but it does seem like this was the wrong turn that wound up getting the Mets back on course. And, if not having Kazmir meant the Mets wouldn't have gotten Santana, the franchise may be better off in the long run. Considering Kazmir's injury history, it's not a stretch to think that Zambrano and Santana's combined value will wind up being greater than Kazmir + Gomez + Guerra + Mulvey + Humber.

]And if Kazmir can lead the Jays past the MFYs for years, all the better.

I agree with this, too- I just don't know what Toronto will have to give up to land him. =)

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

]And if Kazmir can lead the Jays past the MFYs for years, all the better.

I agree with this, too- I just don't know what Toronto will have to give up to land him. =)

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Damn, I wish someone would explain the virtues of the Nolan Ryan or Amos Otis trades while there wearing their blue and orange glasses. I will definitely have to try being more optimistic the next time the Mets make a stupid one sided, loser of a trade.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

="Rockin' Doc"]Damn, I wish someone would explain the virtues of the Nolan Ryan or Amos Otis trades while there wearing their blue and orange glasses. I will definitely have to try being more optimistic the next time the Mets make a stupid one sided, loser of a trade.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Doc- the Kazmir trade was and is an indefensible disaster. I'm just saying that was probably the move that got Lil' Jeffy kicked out of the baseball end of the business, which will help the team in the long run.

Not nearly as much help as having a rotation that starts with Santana, Kazmir, Maine and Pelfrey, of course.

[soupcan]

Vince Coleman Firecracker wrote: Not nearly as much help as having a rotation that starts with Santana, Kazmir, Maine and Pelfrey, of course.

I highly doubt that no matter what the circumstance, those four guys would ever have been in the rotation together.

If they hadn't traded Kazmir would they have felt the need to get Santana?

If they had Kazmir and Santana would they have felt that Pelfrey was expendable and included him in a trade?

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Rockin' Doc wrote: Damn, I wish someone would explain the virtues of the Nolan Ryan or Amos Otis trades while there wearing their blue and orange glasses. I will definitely have to try being more optimistic the next time the Mets make a stupid one sided, loser of a trade.

No, no, those trades were as disasterous. The difference was that those didn't spark an overhaul of the way they did business and the people who did it.

The Mets were well-run, or fairly well-run operations in 1970 and 1972. But the organization was a total mess that year, and the Kazmir trade made that evident to the point that they blew it up and brough in Omar. Without that trade, you might have Kazmir, but you also have Jim Duquette -- and all the people with their fingers in the mix -- and not Omar and the things he did early on that got them back on track.

So, would you trade Kazmir for Pedro and Beltran in 2005 and 2006? I would.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Do you really think that the presence of a 21-year-old Scott Kazmir at Binghamton as the 2004 season closed would have led the Mets to determine that they didn't need Pedro Martinez or Carlos Beltran?

Even though Tampa Bay promoted him early, he was probably a year or two away from joining the Mets. No way would they have passed on Pedro Martinez because they had an unproved 21-year-old who had pitched the previous season in Single A and Double A.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

="soupcan"]I highly doubt that no matter what the circumstance, those four guys would ever have been in the rotation together.

No, we're on the same page- I know the Mets don't trade for Santana if they had Kazmir; but they could have.

[soupcan]

="Vince Coleman Firecracker"]No, we're on the same page- I know the Mets don't trade for Santana if they had Kazmir; but they could have.

Sure they could have, but if they did would they have held onto Pelfrey and/or acquired Maine?