Trouble with Team Names, split from World Series IGT

[Guest Edgy DC]

metsmarathon wrote: ]Twice [the irish] tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. well, that sounds like a fun story to learn more about...

It's great, except that there were actual deaths in this fandango of a move. Under the notion that, if they can't take Britain, they can take a British outpost, a bunch of Irish-American Fenians pretty much paid off a border guard in northern New York and marched makeshift column into Canada, taking a surprised fort and cutting off railroad and telegraph lines. When the British got wind of what had happened, the redfaced Americans re-fortified the border, cutting off supply lines and making it an easy rout for the counter-attacking Canucks a few days later. But the majority of the Fenian forces slipped back into the US uncaptured.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

In what year did this happen?

[metirish]

http://www.bivouacbooks.com/bbv2i3s6.htm

[Guest martin]

pride or shame in these groups we were born into seems kinda primitive. i think it is a good idea for these groups to be mocked and taunted. it is no big deal. let's be individuals.

if there was a german soccer team that was called the americans, and their mascot was a fat mindless oaf, spreading junk culture around the world, that would be awesome. i would hope they were bundesliga champions.

and if i went to germany and some people had bought into the stereotype so much that they assumed i was like the caricature, i dont see that as a problem. my guess is that most people i would want to associate with would be smart enough to realize that generalizations are not always applicable to individuals.

[RealityChuck]

DocTee wrote: Jensen is wrong-- even if NINA signs didn't exist (and they did), anti-Irish discrimination was rampant.

Did you even read the article (which was published originally in a well-regarded academic journal)?

If the signs existed, can you produce any solid evidence? A photo? An actual contemporaneous account of them (not someone who, probably influenced by the song, said they existed)?

Jenson has researched the issue and found only a dozen instances in several hundred thousand pages of documentation? What research have you done on the matter, other than repeat the urban legend?

Yes, there was anti-Irish discrimination. There also was anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-Italian, anti-Polish, anti-German, and anti-pick-the-ethnic-group-of-your-choice discrimination. The Irish were no worse than any other ethinic group in this regard (and certainly better off than Blacks).

[Guest Edgy DC]

martin wrote: if there was a german soccer team that was called the americans, and their mascot was a fat mindless oaf, spreading junk culture around the world, that would be awesome. i would hope they were bundesliga champions.

This is the second such statement like this< after the "Cheap Jews" comment. I don't believe this. The idea might be fun for satire's sake for a short time, but after the novelty wore off, if you saw such a caricature leading to misperceptions about a group and misperceptions by young members of the group about themselves, you'd see it as bad.

[DocTee]

]DocTee wrote: Jensen is wrong-- even if NINA signs didn't exist (and they did), anti-Irish discrimination was rampant. Did you even read the article (which was published originally in a well-regarded academic journal)? If the signs existed, can you produce any solid evidence? A photo? An actual contemporaneous account of them (not someone who, probably influenced by the song, said they existed)? Jenson has researched the issue and found only a dozen instances in several hundred thousand pages of documentation? What research have you done on the matter, other than repeat the urban legend? Yes, there was anti-Irish discrimination. There also was anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-Italian, anti-Polish, anti-German, and anti-pick-the-ethnic-group-of-your-choice discrimination. The Irish were no worse than any other ethinic group in this regard (and certainly better off than Blacks).

Yes, I've read the article. And I've debated Professor Jensen on this issue, one which I've spent a long time researching. He says there are no signs, but produces a dozen examples?? Catholic churches were burned, immigrants were denied political opportunity and otherwise marginalized. To turn the situation around and state that myth has replaced reality is wrong.

Only four more months to pitchers and catchers, when we can debate more appropriate topics for his forum, like who should be in our rotation.

Cheers,

[Guest martin]

Edgy DC wrote: ="martin"]if there was a german soccer team that was called the americans, and their mascot was a fat mindless oaf, spreading junk culture around the world, that would be awesome. i would hope they were bundesliga champions. This is the second such statement like this< after the "Cheap Jews" comment. I don't believe this. The idea might be fun for satire's sake for a short time, but after the novelty wore off, if you saw such a caricature leading to misperceptions about a group and misperceptions by young members of the group about themselves, you'd see it as bad.

incorrect. i do not identify myself strongly with these groups and do not care how they are perceived. i am not some fervent american nationalist that cares about how we are portrayed. i happen to be american, and america is ok with me, but i really do not care if we are misrepresented abroad. all other groups i am a member of, or was born into, i have either left the group or do not care about them at all.

besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals.

nobody really thinks that irish are goofy drunken hooligans. and my example of the german soccer team, if that existed, it wouldn't convince anyone that all americans actually were fat oafs.

i think it is far more important that we as people learn to think like individuals and stop dividing ourselves into mostly arbitrary groups that you can collectively offend than we protect the feelings of people who seek comfort in these groups.

if i were jewish, i certainly would not care about a team called the "cheap jews", because i would have long ago stopped self-identifying as jewish, which is a pretty silly and destructive construct. i certainly take no pride in the goofy southern christian culture of my birth.

satire is important, we should always err on the side of too much satire, when weighing satire vs offensiveness.

[Guest patona314]

i think we need a group hug.

p.s. those stupid, idiotic, mother loving pennsylvanians (penn state) lost to those sheep lovers up in wisconsin yesterday. now i gotta curse out my midwestern neighbor.

[Guest Edgy DC]

1) Misrepresentations kill.

2) Satire tends to have a very short shelf life. At best, it wears thin; at worst, people misread it as a useful illustration of reality (which has happened in this thread).

]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals.

I don't know what qualifies someone as having brains or why it matters, but people are misled. And it can be dangerous.

[Elster88]

]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals.

I take it you've never read a single story about Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez in the NY Daily News.

[Guest martin]

Elster88 wrote: ]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. I take it you've never read a single story about Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez in the NY Daily News.

i do not know what you mean. who is applying a stereotype to these guys?

however, as an american myself, i am offended that they use the slang term yankees, because people apply the characteristics of the yankees to me. when i go abroad, they yell "you are a soulless mercenary who chokes when it is important to perform and feels entitled to everything! yankee go home!"

as a member of the group oppressed by the nickname, i get to define what is offensive. they must change the name now. same with the mets, i am offended as a resident of a metropolitan area.

[Elster88]

martin wrote: ="Elster88"] ]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. I take it you've never read a single story about Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez in the NY Daily News. i do not know what you mean. who is applying a stereotype to these guys?

Not too quick on the uptake today, huh?

[Guest martin]

uptake isnt my specialty.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Doesn't the paradox embedded in the second sentence --- "No one has ever seen one of these NINA signs because they were extremely rare or nonexistent" --- discredit the essay right off?

[Guest Edgy DC]

="RealityChuck"]Did you even read the article (which was published originally in a well-regarded academic journal)? If the signs existed, can you produce any solid evidence? A photo? An actual contemporaneous account of them (not someone who, probably influenced by the song, said they existed)? Jenson has researched the issue and found only a dozen instances in several hundred thousand pages of documentation? What research have you done on the matter, other than repeat the urban legend?

="DocTee"]Yes, I've read the article. And I've debated Professor Jensen on this issue, one which I've spent a long time researching. He says there are no signs, but produces a dozen examples??

This is a wonderful piece of wham! here.

Really, the more I read of that article the more it stinks, particularly academically. When he finds evidence that contradicts his thesis, he bends over backwards to dismiss it, apparently because he's too emotionally invested, and then overstates his thesis even more.

[Guest martin]

Elster88 wrote: Not too quick on the uptake today, huh?

i was discussing stereotypes, and applying them to individuals. i was saying that that cartoonish representations of a group, fighting irish for example, are rarely applied by sane people to individuals. we dont actually meet irish people and think they are silly little fighting freaks like the notre dame mascot. we do not think native americans are really like the goofy grinning face guy on the cleveland cap. and would you really worry about the conclusions drawn by people who are dumb enough to make decisions about a people based on a team name/mascot?

that is why i dont think these team names are very damaging to whatever groups are offended by them.

and your example of a cartoonish stereotype of arod in jeter in the paper was beside the point and useless in this context, or at least it appears that way to me, and apparently you would rather insult me than explain after i asked what you meant.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't think hoping for a world where everyone is smarter is going to work if we don't object when people spread stupidity.

If you've never seen 19-year-old Irish American wearing his Notre Dame jacket on a Thursday night, drunk to the gills and bloodied from brawling, not on any reliable track for a higher education degree himself, and deluded that his stupid behavior is somehow true to his proud ethnic heritage, I don't know what to tell you. I've seen too many of them.

[MFS62]

Since this was going to be split off anyhow, why wasn't it moved to the non-baseball forum?

Later

[RealityChuck]

="DocTee"] ] Yes, I've read the article. And I've debated Professor Jensen on this issue, one which I've spent a long time researching. He says there are no signs, but produces a dozen examples?? Read the article. He finds s few, but only out of tens of thousands of advertisements. That's a ridiculously small small sample to claim systematic repression. Compare the number of signs he was able to find out of all those he searched with the number of documented cross burnings. ]Catholic churches were burned, immigrants were denied political opportunity and otherwise marginalized. All immigrants were. There are two issues, discrimination -- which existed for all immigrants -- and the "No Irish Need Apply" signs -- which were extremely rare. ]To turn the situation around and state that myth has replaced reality is wrong. Not when the myth has replaced reality. The fact remains that the words "No Irish Need Apply" hardly ever were used in advertisments of the time, and that they perceived prevelance was due to a popular song.

metsmarathon Nov 13 2006 09:10 AM

martin wrote: and would you really worry about the conclusions drawn by people who are dumb enough to make decisions about a people based on a team name/mascot? individually, no. but stupid people massed together create a powerful force - a Collective Dumb - that can be at times insuperable. think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof or of teenagers, anywhere. until we find a way to ferret out the stupid and isolate them from each other and insulate the world from them all, you really really do need to worry about what stupid people think. stupid people find themselves voting, and voted into office. they find themselves in positions of importance, and of influence. stupid people shape public policy, and have public policy shaped for them. and more importantly, when you mix stupid people with aggressive behavior, you end up with bad acts being committed against individuals for the failings of a stereotype.

Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 09:41 AM

"Did you even read the article." "Yes, I've read the article." "Read the article."

DocTee Nov 13 2006 10:13 AM

Chuck, I think you misread my post. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which immigrant group had (or has) it worse-- I am just pointing out that even if NINA ads never existed (and they did-- the fact that they are few and far between is not surprising given the largely illiterate nature of the Irish immigrants--- why put in print that they were not wanted when 1. they couldn't read and 2. they couldn't afford the paper if they were literate?!) discrimination did (something even Jensen would acknowledge). As to stereotypes never being adopted by a thinking public, look no further than the Wild West shows of the 1890's, or the tricentennial of Jamestown (1907) where members of the native community were told they were not welcome in the historical exhibits, but could articulute their heritage in the amusement concourse...it is a slippery slope from objectifying someone to liquidating them. We've come a long way, thank God.

martin Nov 13 2006 04:42 PM

metsmarathon wrote: think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof i am from the south, and my experience is that the south and the northeast are not really different in terms of racism. perhaps you are buying into stereotypes about the south. ]If you've never seen 19-year-old Irish American wearing his Notre Dame jacket on a Thursday night, drunk to the gills and bloodied from brawling, not on any reliable track for a higher education degree himself, and deluded that his stupid behavior is somehow true to his proud ethnic heritage i was thinking of people being offended by being misportrayed, i hadnt considered the dummies who have applied the sterotypes to themselves as part of their cultural identity or whatever. i suspect these people would find some other way to ruin themselves if they are acting out what they saw a mascot doing. in these cases i blame the dummies, not the mascots. the person who needs to change is the guy who thinks of thaq caricature as a role model, not the guy who makes up silly team names. a little personal responsibility is in order, and a little less victim mentality.

Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 05:00 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 13 2006 10:51 PM

Yeah, thanks for assessing my mentality. My mentality is that stupid and misleading crap that spreads ignorance should be called stupid and misleading crap. (And I don't know how you could miss my prior reference to people having a corrupt view of themselves.)

martin Nov 13 2006 05:11 PM

i meant victim mentality on the part of the person who would claim they are fighting and drunk because they were doing what society's stereotype told them to do. i dunno why are making excuses for this person. i think it is condescending for us to say we shouldnt have goofy mascots because we need to protect people from trying to be like them. "hey irish guy, we were going to have a drunken fighter guy as our mascot, but you would actually do that, so we won't". i wasnt assessing your mentality.

metsmarathon Nov 13 2006 05:12 PM

martin wrote: ="metsmarathon"] think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof i am from the south, and my experience is that the south and the northeast are not really different in terms of racism. perhaps you are buying into stereotypes about the south. well, then i guess that must surely invalidate my entire point then.

martin Nov 13 2006 05:20 PM

no it doesnt( validate your point), because you are not assuming i am racist merely because i am from the south. the happy stereotype exists, but we are not applying it to individuals. and, i, being a southerner, am not using my upbringing as an excuse to be racist. so the stereotype isnt really causing any problems on either end.

Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 11:02 PM

="martin"]i meant victim mentality on the part of the person who would claim they are fighting and drunk because they were doing what society's stereotype told them to do. i dunno why are making excuses for this person. i think it is condescending for us to say we shouldnt have goofy mascots because we need to protect people from trying to be like them. "hey irish guy, we were going to have a drunken fighter guy as our mascot, but you would actually do that, so we won't". i wasnt assessing your mentality. I never spoke to what anyone would claim. I'm claiming, me, that stupid destructive cultural distortions have stupid destructive consequences and shouldn't be supported.

martin Nov 14 2006 12:35 AM

earlier you mentioned the irish guy that fights because he thinks that is what his culture is. i thought you meant he is the victim of society's distortions of his people giving him problems with his self-image. he should learn to find more healthy role models, and we as a society are not saddled with the responsibility of making sure our mascots do not trouble him. we dont need to protect everyone from everything. we are misplacing responsibility. notre dame isnt to blame when people think that irish people, including themselves, are drunken fighters. if there was the soccer team called the fat idiot americans, and i decided i would be fat and and idiot, thats my fault, not the soccer team. or if other people bought the stereotype that i was fat and lazy, it would be fun to prove them wrong. but it seems unlikely that i would ever deal with anyone that would think less of me because they got their idea of americans from a mascot. should we have opposed archie bunker when many people missed the point and liked his character and supported his racism?

Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 07:29 AM

]we dont need to protect everyone from everything. I object to stupid shit when it happens to come up. How many times do you want to overinterpret that into some sort of social engineering? Or an attempt to legally absolve miscreants of their responsibility for their personal behavior? Their contribition to the marketplace of ideas is a brawling fairy. My contribution is to call that a stupid choice that should be beneath the university. ]but it seems unlikely that i would ever deal with anyone that would think less of me because they got their idea of americans from a mascot. Similar things happen every day. Ignorance is bad. I'm ag'in' it.

[metsmarathon]

martin wrote: and would you really worry about the conclusions drawn by people who are dumb enough to make decisions about a people based on a team name/mascot?

individually, no.

but stupid people massed together create a powerful force - a Collective Dumb - that can be at times insuperable.

think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof

or of teenagers, anywhere.

until we find a way to ferret out the stupid and isolate them from each other and insulate the world from them all, you really really do need to worry about what stupid people think. stupid people find themselves voting, and voted into office. they find themselves in positions of importance, and of influence.

stupid people shape public policy, and have public policy shaped for them.

and more importantly, when you mix stupid people with aggressive behavior, you end up with bad acts being committed against individuals for the failings of a stereotype.

[Guest Edgy DC]

"Did you even read the article."

"Yes, I've read the article."

"Read the article."

[DocTee]

Chuck, I think you misread my post. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which immigrant group had (or has) it worse--

I am just pointing out that even if NINA ads never existed (and they did-- the fact that they are few and far between is not surprising given the largely illiterate nature of the Irish immigrants--- why put in print that they were not wanted when 1. they couldn't read and 2. they couldn't afford the paper if they were literate?!) discrimination did (something even Jensen would acknowledge).

As to stereotypes never being adopted by a thinking public, look no further than the Wild West shows of the 1890's, or the tricentennial of Jamestown (1907) where members of the native community were told they were not welcome in the historical exhibits, but could articulute their heritage in the amusement concourse...it is a slippery slope from objectifying someone to liquidating them.

We've come a long way, thank God.

[Guest martin]

metsmarathon wrote: think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof

i am from the south, and my experience is that the south and the northeast are not really different in terms of racism. perhaps you are buying into stereotypes about the south.

]If you've never seen 19-year-old Irish American wearing his Notre Dame jacket on a Thursday night, drunk to the gills and bloodied from brawling, not on any reliable track for a higher education degree himself, and deluded that his stupid behavior is somehow true to his proud ethnic heritage

i was thinking of people being offended by being misportrayed, i hadnt considered the dummies who have applied the sterotypes to themselves as part of their cultural identity or whatever. i suspect these people would find some other way to ruin themselves if they are acting out what they saw a mascot doing. in these cases i blame the dummies, not the mascots. the person who needs to change is the guy who thinks of thaq caricature as a role model, not the guy who makes up silly team names. a little personal responsibility is in order, and a little less victim mentality.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, thanks for assessing my mentality.

My mentality is that stupid and misleading crap that spreads ignorance should be called stupid and misleading crap. (And I don't know how you could miss my prior reference to people having a corrupt view of themselves.)

[Guest martin]

i meant victim mentality on the part of the person who would claim they are fighting and drunk because they were doing what society's stereotype told them to do. i dunno why are making excuses for this person. i think it is condescending for us to say we shouldnt have goofy mascots because we need to protect people from trying to be like them. "hey irish guy, we were going to have a drunken fighter guy as our mascot, but you would actually do that, so we won't".

i wasnt assessing your mentality.

[metsmarathon]

martin wrote: ="metsmarathon"] think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof i am from the south, and my experience is that the south and the northeast are not really different in terms of racism. perhaps you are buying into stereotypes about the south.

well, then i guess that must surely invalidate my entire point then.

[Guest martin]

no it doesnt( validate your point), because you are not assuming i am racist merely because i am from the south. the happy stereotype exists, but we are not applying it to individuals.

and, i, being a southerner, am not using my upbringing as an excuse to be racist. so the stereotype isnt really causing any problems on either end.

[Guest Edgy DC]

="martin"]i meant victim mentality on the part of the person who would claim they are fighting and drunk because they were doing what society's stereotype told them to do. i dunno why are making excuses for this person. i think it is condescending for us to say we shouldnt have goofy mascots because we need to protect people from trying to be like them. "hey irish guy, we were going to have a drunken fighter guy as our mascot, but you would actually do that, so we won't". i wasnt assessing your mentality.

I never spoke to what anyone would claim. I'm claiming, me, that stupid destructive cultural distortions have stupid destructive consequences and shouldn't be supported.

[Guest martin]

earlier you mentioned the irish guy that fights because he thinks that is what his culture is. i thought you meant he is the victim of society's distortions of his people giving him problems with his self-image. he should learn to find more healthy role models, and we as a society are not saddled with the responsibility of making sure our mascots do not trouble him. we dont need to protect everyone from everything.

we are misplacing responsibility. notre dame isnt to blame when people think that irish people, including themselves, are drunken fighters.

if there was the soccer team called the fat idiot americans, and i decided i would be fat and and idiot, thats my fault, not the soccer team. or if other people bought the stereotype that i was fat and lazy, it would be fun to prove them wrong. but it seems unlikely that i would ever deal with anyone that would think less of me because they got their idea of americans from a mascot.

should we have opposed archie bunker when many people missed the point and liked his character and supported his racism?