I woke up in like this morning

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I like Paul LoDuca.

He shouldnta dropped the ball but did everything else right. Deception is perfectly acceptable in baseball, and the real screwup on that play was sending Sorryanus in the first place (not to mention Royce Clayton failing to remove the bat from the basepath).

LoDuca: He's one of us.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You beginnning to appreciate the advantages of having a catcher who plays gritty, competitive defense without a care for contact? Sometimes having that quality might win a game or two for you.

Some day.

[Guest sharpie]

I've always been in Lo Duca's corner. Born in Brooklyn with a Brooklyn kind of name (even though he moved to Arizona when he was like, 2), what's not to like? He's not Mike Piazza, but I liked him better than the alternatives in Hernandez and Molina.

[metirish]

No doubt that Lo Duca will become a fan fave, in the papers this morning he's getting described as "gritty and hard nosed",a " do all it takes to win" kinda player, and he's honest...on the Soriano play he said this..

] "I'll be honest, I think Soriano's a real good player but with a chance to be second-and-third and no outs, you've got to know that's not a good play,"

[Guest Edgy DC]

Paciorek couldn't say enough about how foolish the head-first slide was there. He comes in with his spikes and the ball winds up in Bloomberg's lap.

[Frayed Knot]

LoDuca to have a weekly spot on Joe Badabingo's show; Tuesdays at noon starting today.

[Guest KC]

BS: >>>You beginnning to appreciate the advantages of having a catcher who plays gritty, competitive defense without a care for contact?<<<

Brightens my day when Bret takes a condescending tone with long-time posters.

Personally, I'll take a player smart enough to get the out without reckless rough
stuff that may not be needed and injury preventing.

(and Piazza was fine defensive catcher sans his throwing arm for the Mets imo)

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC PROTECTOR OF THE WEAK AND DEFENSELESS POSTERS wrote: (and Piazza was fine defensive catcher sans his throwing arm for the Mets imo)

He never would have made that play, probably would not have tried. He would have given it the arm's-length swipe tag that he made famous. Just saying he was a good defensive catcher doesn't make him one, though you can try. He sucked eggs as a defensive catcher, as a team leader, as a baserunner and in many, many, many other ways. As you used to delight in reminding me, I used to assure you that the Mets never had a chance to win their division again with Piazza on the team. How'd that work out? If the Mets had Piazza catching yesterday, their record is now 0-1.

Spin that.

[Guest Rotblatt]

In an alternate universe somewhere, Piazza DIDN'T run over Sal's puppy, Sal's handle is PIAZZAS#1FAN, and he posts endlessly about why Piazza is the greatest Met ever.

What I wouldn't give to hear Sal & bizarro-Sal go head-to-head . . .

[Guest KC]

Speaking of spin, I'd hardly call Mr. Dickshot a weak and defenseless poster.
It just seems that nearly everything you write is to remind us of how smart
you are how dumb we are. I'm not the only person who has made this ob-
servation.

[Willets Point]

]If the Mets had Piazza catching yesterday, their record is now 0-1.

Not true. Piazza homered yesterday so the Mets would win 4-3.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="KC PROTECTOR OF THE WEAK AND DEFENSELESS POSTERS"](and Piazza was fine defensive catcher sans his throwing arm for the Mets imo) He never would have made that play, probably would not have tried. He would have given it the arm's-length swipe tag that he made famous. Just saying he was a good defensive catcher doesn't make him one, though you can try. He sucked eggs as a defensive catcher, as a team leader, as a baserunner and in many, many, many other ways. As you used to delight in reminding me, I used to assure you that the Mets never had a chance to win their division again with Piazza on the team. How'd that work out? If the Mets had Piazza catching yesterday, their record is now 0-1. Spin that.

Spin that?

Simple.

You're wrong.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: Speaking of spin, I'd hardly call Mr. Dickshot a weak and defenseless poster. It just seems that nearly everything you write is to remind us of how smart you are how dumb we are. I'm not the only person who has made this ob- servation.

Are you really so dumb you can't recognize sarcasm, or are you so belligerent you'll take any excuse to start a fight? Dickshot can defend himself if he thinks he needs defending, he doesn't need your capacious skirt to hide behind. (Isn't it getting kind of crowded with Edgy already hiding back there?) I think he has the sense to take my remark for what it was instead of looking to make a tedious argument out of every post I make. Who appointed you the fucking expert anyway on how my posts "seem"? Who fucking cares? Your posts have begun to seem lilke they were written by a douchebag with a infected pimple deep up his ass, but I usualy don't think that's worth reading about here, where we're supposedly discussing baseball. but I'll discuss the way your asinine posts "seem" to me if you really think that's what everyone's interested in reading about. Your call.

Elster, I'm wrong? Maybe so. But no one has convinced me that Piazza was anything other than a weak defensive catcher far more generally than in the one quantifiable area, his throwing arm, which sucked so badly even his fans had to concede that point. He also sucked defensively protecting the dish, calling pitches, and was only so-so on bunts and pop flies. If you want to argue otherwise, do so. If all you want is to stick out your tongue and say "Mikey never sucked a single egg"---well, your tongue could get stuck like that, and then where would you be?

It will be interesting to read what the Mets pitchers have to say in praise of Lo Duca's game-calling ability. Of course none of them have any interest in trashing Piazza, but if you listen closely to what they say, things like "Really knows how to call a game" or "understands each pitcher's stuff and gets in your face when you're throwing pitches that aren't breaking right" or "lets you know loud and clear when you're making poor decisions" will give you pretty good clues as to what was lacking in Piazza's pitch-calling, if you have any interest in learning.

[Guest KC]

I'm not being belligerent at all and generally you're the one who escalates
even the smallest observations into something ten times what it actually
was.

You turned my saying one little thing into calling me dumb, getting a shot in on
Edgemeister, saying I wear a skirt (and that I'm fat), call me tedious, a douchebag,
pimple assed, and basically rip me a new asshole.

Over what? Saying that you sounded condescending. You tell us all the time to
get over ourselves? Uh, perhaps you're projecting.

[metirish]

Back to Lo Duca.....he's sponsored by a Rock Band at Baseball reference.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/loducpa01.shtml

how cool is that?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

No one needs defending against my condescension. If Edgy's too wussy to respond to my posts, then let him learn to tolerate my critiques of his wussiness. What are you, his handpuppet? Butt out, and let's talk baseball. If you prefer the style in which I express myself, I have some manuscripts here in need of editing.

Do you think Lo Duca's a defensive improvement over Piazza? In case you think he's not, I pointed out that he rarely even tried to make that tag play at the plate. You're going to see a sharp defensive improvement at catcher this year, and I don't even think Lo Duca's at the top of his own game anymore. But at his worst, he's a professional catcher, the likes of which you haven't seen in a long time.

[Guest KC]

What does this have to with Edgy?

Yes, let's get back to baseball and how you're smarter than we are about it.

Sheesh, you're awfully sensitive for such a loud mouth.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: What does this have to with Edgy?.

Your obsession wiht protecting people from the harshness of my posts, that's what. It's bad enough you're oversensitive to every post I make when it concerns you, but do you really have to get in my face when I condescend to other posters? Who elected you the condescension police? So I got a little snotty with Dickshot over a subject he and I have discussed before, contact at home plate? He didn't give a shit, and neither did the other posters who disregarded my throwaway line. Again, I was praising Lo Duca in a backhanded way, for his hard-nosed play, and you have to turn this into another "I Love Mikey" thread? Haven't we had enough of those the last decade?

I'm not smarter than anyone else, I just don't break out into hives when reality intrudes on my daydreams. When I see a shitty looking baseball club, mismanaged and mis-selected, something stops me from saying "I think this looks like a terrific squad of playoff-bound immortals." Maybe it's just having been dropped on my head as a child.

[Guest KC]

Yes, we've all discussed contact at home plate with you.

Your constant mischaracterization of what goes on here is a joke. I barely
have any communication with Edgy off-board and I assure you when we do
we have better things to talk about than you (back to get over yourself).

Re last post:

I'm not obsessed with anything more than a baseball team, you're over-
senstive yet call me so, I didn't get in your face, I didn't say you were snotty,
no one turned it into a Love Mikey thread, you're the one constantly belittling
people here, and you severely mis-read the posters on this forum if you think
they all say all this squad is a terrific playoff bounds group of immortals.

Just because you type shit doesn't make it so. You change directions five
times a thread as it suits your fancy and it's transparent and annoying.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: Yes, we've all discussed contact at home plate with you. Your constant mischaracterization of what goes on here is a joke. I barely have any communication with Edgy off-board and I assure you when we do we have better things to talk about than you (back to get over yourself). Re last post: I'm not obsessed with anything more than a baseball team, you're over- senstive yet call me so, I didn't get in your face, I didn't say you were snotty, no one turned it into a Love Mikey thread, you're the one constantly belittling people here, and you severely mis-read the posters on this forum if you think they all say all this squad is a terrific playoff bounds group of immortals. Just because you type shit doesn't make it so. You change directions five times a thread as it suits your fancy and it's transparent and annoying.

Your illiteracy is a barrier to communication. You didn't say I was snotty- but you did say I was condescending. If you need me to explain how the one is a colloquialism for the other, I;ll need to charge you my hourly rate. I also didn't say you were in any sort of communication with Edgy, so I have no idea what you're rattling on about there either. You're totally not transparent but you;re still annoying. I'm so fucking disgusted with you and wasting my time like this that I feel like taking a break from posting here, but I think you'll just conclude you drove me out, so I'm going to force myself to stick around because you don't deserve to pat yourself on the back over your clever strategy of being a non-stop dick.

I really wish you'd take this crap over to the Red Light forum instead of crapping in Dickshot's thread (and blaming it on me) but the rules don;t apply to you, so you leave me with the options of answering you here or leaving your nasty personal attacks unanswered, neither of which I like to do. I don;t understand what you get out of trainwrecking thread after thread, but it doesn't seem like you know how to stop. Why not ignore me completely? It's a wonderful strategy, and it's working out so well for your fellow admin.

[Zvon]

So bret and KC-
....that was a real kool deek he pulled on that ump tho, wasnt it?

[Guest KC]

Mind your own business, 'von.

>>>Your illiteracy is a barrier to communication.<<<

As is your table turning manipulative use of the English language.

>>>I'm so fucking disgusted with you<<<

It amazes me how nasty you get. The abuse ratio in this thread is like
15-1 for you - but I disgust you?. Might I remind you that all I said was
that you were being condescending. Ooooooooooo, four killer sylables.

I don't plan on ignoring anyone or anything that goes on here any time soon,
and I'm not trying to drive you out. You wouldn't be posting here if it wasn't
for me.

We'll see what that disclosure does for my approval rating.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Rotblatt - "In an alternate universe somewhere, Piazza DIDN'T run over Sal's puppy, Sal's handle is PIAZZAS#1FAN, and he posts endlessly about why Piazza is the greatest Met ever.

What I wouldn't give to hear Sal & bizarro-Sal go head-to-head . . ."

Rotblatt, too bad you weren't around to witness Ms. Met and doc g (Sal) go at it on the old MOFO. She was Piazza's number one fan and "the defender of all catchers". Sal, well he was the bane of her existense and argued extensively with her on a multitude of topics. She seemed to infuriate Sal with her persistance and circular logic that generally ended with her stating her belief while affirming her right to her opinion as she played the victim card. Sometimes, I think Sal misses his adversary of old.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Elster, I'm wrong? Maybe so. But no one has convinced me that Piazza was anything other than a weak defensive catcher far more generally than in the one quantifiable area, his throwing arm, which sucked so badly even his fans had to concede that point. He also sucked defensively protecting the dish, calling pitches, and was only so-so on bunts and pop flies. If you want to argue otherwise, do so. If all you want is to stick out your tongue and say "Mikey never sucked a single egg"---well, your tongue could get stuck like that, and then where would you be?

My "tongue sticking out" defense of Piazza's catching ability is very similar to your "tongue sticking out" attack on Piazza's catching ability. It has been well-documented here and in other places that Piazza was an above average defender at everything related to catching except throwing out base stealers. I don't want to have that same discussion for the 1,000th time.

The only reason I responded was because it's very annoying that praise of our new catcher is immediately used as a reason to drop a (very) thinly-veiled insult against our old catcher. Lots of topics have provided you with the same excuse. Why do it again?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: [Piazza was an above average defender at everything related to catching except throwing out base stealers.

All you'll have to do, as I said, is read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense. I don't expect you'll be convinced but I'll take comfort from it. It's amazing that you still think Piazza was a good catcher. If he was even an average catcher, there would have been no reason at all for the Mets not to have signed him again this year, and I would have endorsed the move, but he isn't, and they didn't, so I didn;t have to. But your opinion identifies you as stubbornly deluded, and I'll preserve it as Exhibit A if anyone tries to claim that I;'ve overstated the degree of denial around here.

Let's try some elementary logic: Is Lo Duca an improvement defensively over Piazza? Is he a big improvement? Yes and yes. Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? No. Final Question: does this make Piazza anywhere near average?

[Elster88]

Like I said, I don't want to get into it again.

My question remains: Why bring it up again? Your feelings are well known.

[metirish]

Ok I had to use this.....

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"][Piazza was an above average defender at everything related to catching except throwing out base stealers. All you'll have to do, as I said, is read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense.

From what I've seen, your ability at "reading between the lines" leaves a lot to be desired.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: Like I said, I don't want to get into it again. My question remains: Why bring it up again? Your feelings are well known.

Because Lo Duca made a good play the other day I haven't seen very much in the last decade. Instead of going with the Lo Duca compliment (in contrast with the implicit comparison) this thread got hijacked into a whole Piazza-defense thing. I certainly wasn;t going to make it into a Piazza thread, which wasn't even the main point of my post about Lo Duca. If my views are so well known, and I repeat myself so much, you';d think you'd just roll your eyes and limit the damage. But you can't let it go, can you?

"Bret says smack about my man, I'm going to get into his ugly face, and bring up stuff he wrote elsewhere, years ago, and make up stuff he never said."--a winning strategy if ever I heard one.

All I'm really saying is watch Lo Duca behind the plate and see what a real catcher looks like. Couple that realization with the understanding that Lo Duca probably hit his defensive peak two or three years ago, and he was never the greatest catcher in the game anyway, and when you're done, I think you'll understand something of Piazza's defensive prowess, if you;re willing to see it. If you're not (and I think at this point that's a safe assumption), you'll never see it, and you'll keep trashing me for pointing it out. I can live with it just fine, but you;ve said your piece about 1000 times already and you haven';t introduced a shred of evidence to back it up, so it gets tiresome.

[soupcan]

="Bret Sabermetric"]All you'll have to do, as I said, is read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense. I don't expect you'll be convinced but I'll take comfort from it. It's amazing that you still think Piazza was a good catcher. If he was even an average catcher, there would have been no reason at all for the Mets not to have signed him again this year, and I would have endorsed the move, but he isn't, and they didn't, so I didn;t have to. But your opinion identifies you as stubbornly deluded, and I'll preserve it as Exhibit A if anyone tries to claim that I;'ve overstated the degree of denial around here.

Ah what the hell - I'll jump in.

How can you be so sure that that when the pitchers are talking about LoDuca that there are in fact things to read inbetween those lines?

Can't they just like him without disliking Piazza or are these ideas not mutually exclusive of one another?

Now maybe you are right, maybe they never wanted to criticize Piazza because, well, he was Piazza and maybe they think that LoDuca is just a much, much, much, much, much better catcher in every single way. But you don't know that.

You can opine and that's fine (I'm a poet and I know it), but we all know what happens when we assume don't we?

And why is it wrong to simply believe that the Mets didn't want to invest another year and $$$ in an aging catcher who seemed as if he was starting to break down physically? Perhaps they weighed their options and thought 'Yes Piazza is fine defensively and calls a satisfactory game but he is getting older and is getting hurt more. He's not as consistent a hitter and can't throw anybody out. His contract is up why don't we just let him go and start fresh?'

Why is this so unbelievable?

I understand your point but you are pounding it home as if its the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and all you have is your belief that he couldn't stop a 15 mph tumbleweed rolling lazily towards him coupled with your inbetween the lines theory.

Give me something more concrete and maybe I'll come over to the dark side but until you've got Tom Glavine on a tape recorder telling me that Mikey P. had hands like a spaghetti strainer I'm not buying what your selling .

="Bret Sabermetric"] Let's try some elementary logic: Is Lo Duca an improvement defensively over Piazza?

Yes.

="Bret Sabermetric"] Is he a big improvement?

He's an improvement.

="Bret Sabermetric"]Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season?

A guy has to win a gold glove to be considered 'above average'?

="Bret Sabermetric"]Final Question: does this make Piazza anywhere near average?

I've never heard anyone, anywhere, besides you, deride Piazza's defensive ability so much. We know the guy can't throw but after years of watching him I think I would've noticed an overabundance of passed balls and a tendency to get out of the way of runners barreling down on him. I didn't. Take away his noodle arm and yeah, I think Piazza is an average defensive catcher.