What I loved about the Davey Johnson Mets

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

1) the way Davey would play kids, or give other team's castoffs a chance. I love the fact they promoted Dykstra when they had Mookie, and let him push the popular and adequate Mookie into LF. I love the way Davey found a job (or half a job) for Backman, whom he had managed at Tidewater. I'm still blown away by the fact that he put Gooden in the rotation at age 19. Even if that hadn't worked, he just found all these kids--Darling, Fernandez, McDowell, have them loads of work, and they responded. DJ said "Mitchell doesn't look like a shortstop? Fuck that. He hits and I'll find him at-bats if I have to do by inventing a position for him to play." I loved the guts Davey would show every week, if not every game.

2) Your go.

[soupcan]

- Cause he just 'let the kids play' with hands-off style managing and 'what me worry?' attitude.

- Thought it was pretty cool that the guy who made the last out of the '69 Series was the manager that brought a champeenship back to Shea.

- His nasty, tough-guy scar on his neck from getting spiked when he was a player.

- Just ballsy as hell.


Next...

[Guest KC]

I loved the way I felt because the Mets owned New York again. It's funny,
but really Davey's teams kinda underachieved by only winning one title and
the collection of misfits that we all love (and loved) should have done more
but some people pine for the good old days because they're unhappy with
the current state of the Mets. That's funny ... oh, I said that.

I hate Billy Joel, but the good old days weren't always good and tomorrow
ain't as bad it seems.

[G-Fafif]

Because he told Frank Cashen to take the bill from United Airlines and stick it in his bowtie.

[G-Fafif]

And told his players to skip the practice in Fenway before Game Three.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

I loved the fact that they were scrappy. They always played hard.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

What makes Gooden starting the 1984 season in the rotation even more surprising was that the Mets were still smarting from what happened to Tim Leary a few years before.

It took guts to give that job to a 19-year-old. I remember at the time hoping that they would, and being pleasantly surprised that they did.

[Guest KC]

I don't remember a guttiness factor. While I wasn't as tuned in as today with
the resources we have at our disposal, I remember most accounts as Doc
was a can't miss and Davey was probably licking his chops instead of pressing
his lips with guttiness.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

There were two types of games in 1986 - the games they would win with dominance, and the games they would win by coming from behind.

They had spunk, I tell ya!

[Guest KC]

My softball friends and I still joke about '86 and how we'd go our friends
porch for a few victory beers and we'd put the Mets game on and they
were down by two in the 7th and we'd laugh and say, "got 'em right where
we want 'em".

[MFS62]

I loved the way he was not only the first ML manager I read about who knew how to use a computer*, but he used it to maintain statistics that helped him make some managerial decisions.

*= IIRC he had a Masters Degree in Mathematics.

Later

[DocTee]

I always thought Tony "the genius' LaRussa ushered that in...

[seawolf17]

I loved the brawls. Ray Knight, Straw, Doc, Cooter's... so many great brawls. We were at Shea on July 11, 1986, when Gary hit a three-run homer in the first and a grand slam in the second; David Palmer hit Straw with the next pitch, the dugouts cleared, and the place went bonkers. I thought I remembered a bunch of people getting thrown out of the game, but I guess that was just my ten-year-old mind, because UMDB shows only Palmer leaving after that (and maybe Mex, who was one of the major antagonists).

[Guest KC]

Gooden was a no-brainer in my mind, and didn't require any
special managerial magic or an IBM AT with a 20 MB hard
drive so I went back and looked for a spring training article
in the NYT Wayback Machine. Found one from 03/14/1984
by respected columnist, Joseph Durso.

Some quotes ...

�DG pitched thre more strong innings today on the road to
what looks like a full-time job on the Mets at the age of 19�

Re: what was a B spring training game �But the Cardinals
played it with almost all their regular players (he names
them and Allen comments that he can pitch in the big leagues
right now) and then scout for the Expos says, �I'll take him
right now�.

Re: his jump from A to AAA:
��In his first six games,� Perlozzo said, �he won three and lost
three. Then he won 15 straight. He overpowered the league.
He has big league stuff, and he could make it if there's a big
league opportunity for him this season�.�

�Johnson was asked if Gooden was close to winning a job than
he was a month ago, when spring training began. He hesitated
a moment, and said, �No.� Then he laughed at his own little
mystery, and said, �but that doesn't mean that he wasn't close
a month ago.��

Not exactly a man with an iron stomach for going out on a
limb and taking a chance on the kid who helped Tidewater
win the minor league playoffs under his watch from the bench.

The other funny thing I found in the column was the close
referring to the fact that the Mets were looking for new talent
to help erase public reaction to the mistake that allowed the
White Sox to claim Seaver off the FA compensation pool.

Imagine that, our beloved mid 80's Mets posturing to sway
public opinion of the team ... I thought only Freddie Mon-
bags or whatever the buzz word of the day is would stoop
to such lows.

(I slapped this together, the punctuation is brutal but it gets
the jist across of where I'm going)

[Guest KC]

>>>Bret S: Even if that hadn't worked, he just found all these kids--Darling, Fernandez, McDowell, have them loads of work, and they responded.<<<

First off, he didn't find them. Secondly, what kind of managerial magic are you
talking about in getting quality players to "respond"? I wish I could get a job
where they gave me a talented (even it's potential) staff and say go make it
work and here's a bunch of money for trying.

[Guest KC]

>>>Bret S: DJ said "Mitchell doesn't look like a shortstop? Fuck that. He
hits and I'll find him at-bats if I have to do by inventing a position for him to
play."<<<

Or, Mitchell said," find me a place in the lineup or I'll cut your cats
head off." Or something like that.

Ol' Gutsy Davey ... if only he were at the helm today things would be
different.

[Theoldmole]

I was gonna go with G-Fafif's, so I'll ditto his.

And, what the heck, everyone else's.

[Theoldmole]

Nothing's a no-brainer. Gooden wasn't even on the depth chart at the start of that spring training, and it would have been easy to say "more seasoning.:" That;s always the safe route.

[Guest KC]

Not on which depth chart. Do you have one handy?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I recall I learned there was a guy called Dwight Gooden and he was supposed to be really good in September '83 when he was called up to Tidewater in the AAA playoffs. That woulda been before Johnson was named manager, although I seem also to recall knowing he'd have a shot at the 84 manager job some time before he actually had it too. Johnson and Gooden are closely realted in that way in my mind.

Oh, yeah. I liked Johnson mainly because that 84 team really redeemed what seemed to me to be a long unhappy childhood, Met wise. In 1973 I was 7 and really rooted hard for the first time. It wasn't till I was 17 that they came that close again.

[Guest Spacemans Bong]

MFS62 wrote: I loved the way he was not only the first ML manager I read about who knew how to use a computer*, but he used it to maintain statistics that helped him make some managerial decisions. *= IIRC he had a Masters Degree in Mathematics. Later

He knew how to use a computer before 99% of the population - he was building computers in his home in the early 70s, IIRC.

And starting Gooden in 84 was ballsy. The Pearlman book really lays into how Johnson had to fight some to put Gooden in the rotation. I don't care how dominant he was in the minors, GMs are always going to be looking for reasons for 19 year olds to stay in the minors because 19 year old MLBers are so rare.

[Elster88]

Davey was ballsy. He only started the young guys instead of the vets.

Or wait, was it Ray Knight or Howard Johnson that started at third? Oh shoot, maybe he was just lucky to get one more good season out of Knight.

Left field then, yeah. He would never wait until George Foster shot himself in the foot a dozen different times by calling Davey a racist and his refusing to take part in team brawls. I mean, Davey would have never started an aging crusty veteran on the downturn of his career, he would have put a younger rising star guy in there like Mitchell

And since HoJo wasn't getting the start at third he must have played most of the games at short instead of incumbent Raffy Santana, right?




Or maybe, just maybe, Davey played the guys he had, like EVERY OTHER MANAGER, including the one currently running the Mets.

I loved those late eighties teams. I hate waxing poetic about the past.

[Elster88]

Spacemans Bong wrote: He knew how to use a computer before 99% of the population - he was building computers in his home in the early 70s, IIRC.

I love dopey, made-up statistics like this. They crack me up.

So...Spaceman, what percentage of the population used computers in the early seventies? How many homes had a computer? How many people knew how to use a computer?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: Davey was ballsy. He only started the young guys instead of the vets. Or wait, was it Ray Knight or Howard Johnson that started at third? Oh shoot, maybe he was just lucky to get one more good season out of Knight. Left field then, yeah. He would never wait until George Foster shot himself in the foot a dozen different times by calling Davey a racist and his refusing to take part in team brawls. I mean, Davey would have never started an aging crusty veteran on the downturn of his career, he would have put a younger rising star guy in there like Mitchell And since HoJo wasn't getting the start at third he must have played most of the games at short instead of incumbent Raffy Santana, right? Or maybe, just maybe, Davey played the guys he had, like EVERY OTHER MANAGER, including the one currently running the Mets. I loved those late eighties teams. I hate waxing poetic about the past.

This is totally nuts, my friend. I didn't say Davey insisted on playing only the youngest players on the basis of their youth, and disregarded veterans on the basis on their experience, though if you want to argue against those positions you can twist around my words and look very clever doing so.

My point was that Davey was open to playing whoever had what looked like talent and ability to him. Most managers would have refused Mitchell a roster spot--"Don't have a position for him," "need seasoning," "Maybe when Geoge Foster retires in about three years," etc. Davey found a way to use him, contrary to everyone else's "common sense." That's uncommon, and the fact you're saying "Of course, he found a spot for Mitchell" just illustrates how brilliant a move it was.Current management would have looked for another veteran to replace Foster after his implosion, instead of partially filling the hole with rookies Dysktra and Mitchell. Whether current management would have even let Foster go is open to debate--they would have said "We're paying him a ton of money, and he's stil hitting HRs now and then, so he's your leftfielder for the duration, Davey--deal." Davey said, "Fuck that--he goes or I go" in effect, and Foster went. IIn fact, I'm mildly surprised that current management hasn't invited George Foster to training camp for 2006--isn't he younger than Julio Franco?

I can't believe revisionism has advanced so far as to make Doc G at age 19 a no-brainer. That was the single gutsiest move that I've ever seen a first-time manager make, and KC is all "Whats the big whoop? He was Doc Gooden, it was totally obvious" about it. It was totally genius, is what it was totally, and it took sheer balls to get it done at point before age 22 or so. That you're giving Davey no credit blows me away. No other manager would have stuck Darling or Fernandez in the rotation either llike Davey did--they would have dicked them around, yoyoed them between AAA and the majors, jerked them in and out of the rotation--just look at Aaron Heilman and Jae Seo if you want examples of what other people might have done with their younger starting pitchers. Davey just said, "These guys can pitch," and he pitched them, for which he gets a lot of credit from me.

[seawolf17]

Bret, you're making waaaaaay too many assumptions in there.

Why do you say "most managers would have refused Mitchell a roster spot"? He was a utilityman with a lot of pop; I would think that most managers would love to put a guy like that on the team.

"Current management would have looked for another veteran to replace Foster?" Then explain their love for Victor Diaz, who got his shot to be an everyday player last year. Or Jose Reyes. Or David Wright. Or Aaron Heilman.

"No other manager would have stuck Darling or Fernandez in the rotation?" What did the Marlins do with Dontrelle Willis? Or the Mets with Generation K?

Stop making bullshit blanket generalizations just because you have animosity toward current management.

[Elster88]

] I didn't say Davey insisted on playing only the youngest players on the basis of their youth, and disregarded veterans on the basis on their experience, though if you want to argue against those positions you can twist around my words and look very clever doing so.

I didn't say you said this either. I'm not arguing for or against those positions. I'm actually not even sure what you mean by arguing against those positions.

All I said was that Davey played the players he was given.

]I can't believe revisionism has advanced so far as to make Doc G at age 19 a no-brainer. That was the single gutsiest move that I've ever seen a first-time manager make, and KC is all "Whats the big whoop? He was Doc Gooden, it was totally obvious" about it.

I agree with KC. Everybody wet themselves when they saw Doc pitch. I'm pretty sure most other managers at the time would've put him in the majors.

]totally genius, is what it was totally, and it took sheer balls to get it done at point before age 22 or so.

I know they aren't pitchers, but Wright and Reyes were pretty young when they first started playing for the Mets. Of course, the current Mets were forced into that right? Otherwise, they would've never dreamed of putting those two young guys into the majors. It still blows me away that a continuing argument against the Mets is that they ignore the younger players. Then how in the hell did we have a starting lineup that included four position players under the age of 24 last year? Dumb luck I guess.

]That you're giving Davey no credit blows me away. No other manager would have stuck Darling or Fernandez in the rotation either llike Davey did--they would have dicked them around, yoyoed them between AAA and the majors, jerked them in and out of the rotation--just look at Aaron Heilman and Jae Seo if you want examples of what other people might have done with their younger starting pitchers. Davey just said, "These guys can pitch," and he pitched them, for which he gets a lot of credit from me.

If you're comparing Seo and Heilman to Doc, Darling, and Sid.....I just don't know how to argue with you. It seems to me, by the above paragraph, that you're saying Davey would've given Seo and Heilman more starts because he did so with the three 1986ers you mentioned.

That's a very, very shaky assumption, considering how much better Doc, Darling and Sid were. I'd argue this: Since Heilman and Seo don't have nearly the same amount of talent, there is no guarantee they would've gotten more time under Davey.

[Guest KC]

I'm not big whoopin' anything.

I loved Davey and those 80's teams. My underlying point for getting involved
in this is a) they underachieved with the amount of talent they had, and I
think Bret's picture painting of Davey and the kids is a pining for days gone
past sprinlkled with a dash of if only the Mets did business this way instead
of that we'd all be happier. Fine.

I challenge anyone to come up with pitchers who we can count up on one hand
that were 19 years old and had Doc's potential since 1983 and then we'll start
talking about whether it's genius, ballsey, or just fortuitous to pitch the kid
in the bigs. I mean the way Doc turned out later in life, maybe rushing him to
stardom was dumb, but that's another thread subject if someone wants to go there.

Here's a quote from the Bill James 1984 Baseball Abstract: "So in some sense,
Davey Johnson's job this year shouldn't be all that tough. The Mets organiztion
is a pyramid standing on it's head, and all he has to do is put it right side up."

[seawolf17]

But Kase, you don't understand. Davey was a genius! Art Howe would have left Doc in Tidewater! Willie Randolph would have traded Sid Fernandez to Milwaukee for Gorman Thomas! Did you see the great Gil Hodges ever give young pitchers a chance? No! He let Tom Seaver rot in the minor leagues, until he finally dumped him on the Reds! He told management, "I don't want this Koosman kid. Get me an aging middle reliever instead!"

Gimme a break.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ] I didn't say Davey insisted on playing only the youngest players on the basis of their youth, and disregarded veterans on the basis on their experience, though if you want to argue against those positions you can twist around my words and look very clever doing so. I didn't say you said this either. I'm not arguing for or against those positions. I'm actually not even sure what you mean by arguing against those positions. All I said was that Davey played the players he was given. ]I can't believe revisionism has advanced so far as to make Doc G at age 19 a no-brainer. That was the single gutsiest move that I've ever seen a first-time manager make, and KC is all "Whats the big whoop? He was Doc Gooden, it was totally obvious" about it. I agree with KC. Everybody wet themselves when they saw Doc pitch. I'm pretty sure most other managers at the time would've put him in the majors. ]totally genius, is what it was totally, and it took sheer balls to get it done at point before age 22 or so. I know they aren't pitchers, but Wright and Reyes were pretty young when they first started playing for the Mets. Of course, the current Mets were forced into that right? Otherwise, they would've never dreamed of putting those two young guys into the majors. It still blows me away that a continuing argument against the Mets is that they ignore the younger players. Then how in the hell did we have a starting lineup that included four position players under the age of 24 last year? Dumb luck I guess. ]That you're giving Davey no credit blows me away. No other manager would have stuck Darling or Fernandez in the rotation either llike Davey did--they would have dicked them around, yoyoed them between AAA and the majors, jerked them in and out of the rotation--just look at Aaron Heilman and Jae Seo if you want examples of what other people might have done with their younger starting pitchers. Davey just said, "These guys can pitch," and he pitched them, for which he gets a lot of credit from me. If you're comparing Seo and Heilman to Doc, Darling, and Sid.....I just don't know how to argue with you. It seems to me, by the above paragraph, that you're saying Davey would've given Seo and Heilman more starts because he did so with the three 1986ers you mentioned. That's a very, very shaky assumption, considering how much better Doc, Darling and Sid were. I'd argue this: Since Heilman and Seo don't have nearly the same amount of talent, there is no guarantee they would've gotten more time under Davey.

This is the main appeal of revisionist history-- "considering how much better Doc, Darling and Sid were." Davey couldn't know that until he'd pitched them and they'd shown what they had. You know how good they were, Davey only felt they would be good and they proved him right, so now it was a no-brainer to fill his strting rotation with untested kids. Then, not so much.

Now if Seo and Heilman turn out to be as good, you can argue (and probably will) that they were good BECAUSE they were brought along slowly, being yoyoed back and forth helped keep the pressure off them, etc. and I can't prove that you're wrong, either. And if they each stink up the joint in 2006, you'll be able to say, "See? If the Mets would have started them as rotation anchors in 2005, the team would have been even worse than it was." But it was figuring out who can pitch and who can't that I'm crediting Davey with, and being unwilling to make that call that I'm castigating the current Mets management for. I think the Mets should roll the dice much more than they do instead of the CYA manuevers they employ that so many of you seem to support, regardless of whether they work, historically.

Off the top of my head, I'd say that Reyes had more experience in the high minors (though he had very little) than Gooden, and that Wright also had a better and a longer minor league record than the other young pitchers the Mets employed. I give them credit for promoting Reyes and Wright, but they should be promoting players sooner and more often than they do. Of course, they also need the good young players to promote, but if they had them(and I'd argue that they do) I don't think the manager is nearly the force Davey was in being willing to use them. Davey would have a rotation of Heilman and Seo and Zambrano plus a veteran or two or maybe some kid who'd break the rotation open in Spring Training. he would have asked for Mike Jacobs to be called up last April. He would have found Victor Diaz a hundred more ABs last year. He would have seen what Anderson Hernandez could do in 2005. he would have promoted Reyes and Wright out of spirng training instead of waiting half a season for each of them. I believe he would have made these moves, and a dozen others that I have no idea about, because he was a creative, gutsy, iconoclastic and thoroughly admirable manager of the sort the Mets need but are far too corporate to tolerate these days..

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

seawolf17 wrote: Why do you say "most managers would have refused Mitchell a roster spot"? He was a utilityman with a lot of pop; I would think that most managers would love to put a guy like that on the team..

How do you know that? Because Davey played him.

="seawolf 17"] "Current management would have looked for another veteran to replace Foster?" Then explain their love for Victor Diaz, who got his shot to be an everyday player last year. Or Jose Reyes. Or David Wright. Or Aaron Heilman..

Love for Victor Diaz? The kid got totally screwed last year so they could keep Cameron on the roster (and the team got screwed too, in that they would have gotten a shitload more than Xavier F. Nady for him in June, if they'd had any faith in Diaz's ability.) . And Heilman's your poster boy for players they Mets have gone out of their way to promote? That's totally insane. The guy pitched a one-hitter last year and was promptly dropped from the rotation and shitcanned into middle relief. Jae Seo, pitching just fine, was sent to the freaking minors so that Ishii could screw up the rotation for two months.

seawolf17 wrote: "No other manager would have stuck Darling or Fernandez in the rotation?" What did the Marlins do with Dontrelle Willis? Or the Mets with Generation K? Stop making bullshit blanket generalizations just because you have animosity toward current management.

I'll admit that the Marlins are more perceptive than the Mets, who would have sent Willis to the minors, to middle relief or to Tampa Bay, depending on precisely how they would have misjudged his talents. How long ago was Generation K, exactly? The fact that you have to pull out of your ass an example consisting of grizzled or long-since retired veterans like Wilson and Isringhausen and Pulsipher just proves my point.

As for your last statement, I don't think you want to characterize my statements as bullshit unless you want me to start making similar statements your way, which I'd rather not do. And I don't take orders as to how I should or should not post from you.