Benson -- Julio Redux?

[Frayed Knot]

Minaya's time & role while in Montreal were spent under such strange circumstances that I find it hard to "blame" him for what went on there or even objectively evaluate specific trades and use them as some sort of measuring stick of what he'd be elsewhere.
But, having said all that, I did always find it strange how he was somehow the tabbed as "the golden child" in the minds of a sizable chunk of Met fans. While things were going downhill in the post WS years it seemed that everyone withing the whole Wilpon(s)/Phillips regime was being painted with the same 'get 'em all outta here' brush ... except Minaya. When he was named to run the dying Montreal franchise there was an 'oh my god we can't lose him' cry that defied logical explanation. Somehow, the masses simply assumed Duquette to be a tainted symptom of the problem while Minaya was somehow considered the antidote.

[Zvon]

*bad unspoken joke about Anna Benson quote deleted as it was meant only for the late night crews eyes to see.*


Carry on.

[Zvon]

......as a matter of fact, Ill even delete that astute observation above b4 i crash.
i just had to say something tho.....lol,i just had to.

[MFS62]

Why should only you late night guys be able to enjoy some creative obscenity?
Let us early morning folks enjoy it too.

EDIT: Its 6:29AM, not 7:29 like the header shows.

Later

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I was sleeping when Zvon posted and erased, but I'd guess he volunteered for Anna to blow him out of proportion any time.

[Guest abogdan]

Even with all of his faults, Benson was a perfectly average starting pitcher. There's value to 200 innings at league average ERA. In this market, that value is likely higher than Benson's salary, which looked ridiculous when his deal was signed a year and change ago. That value, is also much higher than a mediocre reliever and a formerly hot prospect who flopped in his ML debut and will be 25 next year. Awful trade. The team is worse today than it was before this trade was made. The Mets are going to need one of their minor league pitchers to get hot and contribute to the big league team by June for the rotation to survive the season.

[Guest Rotblatt]

="Edgy DC"] ]How much do you want to bet that Willie would use Heilman for mop-up duty for the first three months again, sending Mediocrity Personified out in the 7th & 8th in the form of Sanchez & Julio? Really? This trade, whatever it's other traits, appears to have opened a door for Heilman. You really think it's about shutting the door on him?

Um, check out the sentence right before the one you quoted:

]Let say we DO sign Weaver, relegating Heilman to the pen.

So yes, I really think that Heilman would be the odd-man out if we signed a Zito or a Weaver. Which I find retarded, because Zambrano should clearly be the odd man out.

Most of the apologists of this trade seem to think it's is the precursor to signing a starting pitcher; if that happens, it seems like Heilman only benefits in the short-term. Unless, of course, there IS no "other move," in which case, there seem to be even more of us on the "this was a really bad move" side.

Now maybe all these moves were done to try and make Heilman happy--getting Sanchez & Julio to replace him in the pen, and trading Benson to make a spot for Heilman in the rotation--but couldn't Omar have promoted Heilman without making bad trades?

I mean, what was the rush?

[Guest KC]

>>>"This is never about me," she said. "This is about him."<<<

Isn't that right, honey?

Yes, dear. Can I have my ...

NO!

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I'm thinking of writing a short story about a baseball wife who vows to screw the whole roster if hubby cheats on her. He does so, thinks she doesn't know about it but she finds out, and she decides to get through the whole team before telling him of what she's done. Story takes place as she's trying to nail (so to speak) those last few faithful (to their own wives) husbands on the team, wearing down their resistance.

What do you think of the idea? I've got so many of these, I'm thinking of marketing them as a collection. Prolly should put some effort into getting them published in magazine form first, but it's an interesting idea to me a collection of stories about baseball based on actual incidents or potential incidents in the game's history.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Excellent idea.

As she goes from player to player she'll learn unexpected and embarrassing things: the team's superstar, for instance, turns out to be as gay as a french horn; and while enjoying her connection with the team's trainer, learns also he has a particularly nasty strain of herpes.

[Elster88]

]according to her, "the sexiest woman in professional sports

This stuff cracks me up. I wonder if she'll ever realize that she's not in professional sports.

[seawolf17]

Elster88 wrote: ]according to her, "the sexiest woman in professional sports This stuff cracks me up. I wonder if she'll ever realize that she's not in professional sports.

And even if she was, she wouldn't be in the Top 50.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Um, check out the sentence right before the one you quoted:

I saw it. No need for the tone.

Your point wasn't about whether Heilman should be ahead of Zambrano in the rotation, but that he'd end up in the back of the bullpen pitching mopup innings. If that's your position, then fine, we'll put it in the prediction archives and see.

Any reasonable debate tends to degenerate when the word "apologists" gets tossed around. There's no need for namecalling.

[Elster88]

I see a few people saying things along the lines of "I'm surprised that people are surprised that Omar's making dumb moves" or "I'm suprised that a chunk of Met fans had Omar as their savior, and are shocked when he makes dumb moves." (Note: These quotation marks do not contain actual quotes, but rather paraphrase what I've seen.) Who thought Omar was their savior? Is this referring to Mr. Random Radio Caller?

I don't remember who thought of Omar as some sort of God Among GMs, and I don't see anyone around these parts saying "I can't believe Omar is making dumb moves, he was supposed to be our savior". I think the attitude around here all along was wait-and-see.

At least it was for me. After last offseason, I was happy with Omar. After this offseason, I am not.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I'm thinking of writing a short story about a baseball wife who vows to screw the whole roster if hubby cheats on her. He does so, thinks she doesn't know about it but she finds out, and she decides to get through the whole team before telling him of what she's done. Story takes place as she's trying to nail (so to speak) those last few faithful (to their own wives) husbands on the team, wearing down their resistance. What do you think of the idea? I've got so many of these, I'm thinking of marketing them as a collection. Prolly should put some effort into getting them published in magazine form first, but it's an interesting idea to me a collection of stories about baseball based on actual incidents or potential incidents in the game's history.

I guarantee you'll get sued for copyright infringement.

____________________
This post had the designation 79) Jeromy Burnitz

[Guest cooby]

You're really hung up on that whole scenario, aren't you?

[metirish]

Imagine if we lived in an internet world when Seaver got traded.............

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

It only works if you come up with a good rationale for why it would happen. It doesn't work if the characters are all cardboard.

It's one thing to make a quip about it. It's a totally different thing to do it. Come up with a rationale that bridges the quip and the act and you've got something.

[Elster88]

cooby wrote: You're really hung up on that whole scenario, aren't you?

Que?

[Guest cooby]

Bret.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]I'm thinking of writing a short story about a baseball wife who vows to screw the whole roster if hubby cheats on her. He does so, thinks she doesn't know about it but she finds out, and she decides to get through the whole team before telling him of what she's done. Story takes place as she's trying to nail (so to speak) those last few faithful (to their own wives) husbands on the team, wearing down their resistance. What do you think of the idea? I've got so many of these, I'm thinking of marketing them as a collection. Prolly should put some effort into getting them published in magazine form first, but it's an interesting idea to me a collection of stories about baseball based on actual incidents or potential incidents in the game's history. I guarantee you'll get sued for copyright infringement. ____________________ This post had the designation 79) Jeromy Burnitz

Who has copyrighted what, exactly?

[Elster88]

Come on Bret, did I really need a note saying the copyright infringement thing was a joke?

]Who has copyrighted what, exactly?

Kris and Anna have the story about a woman who sleeps with her husband's teammates copyrighted.

NOTE: THE ABOVE STATEMENT ABOUT KRISTIN BENSON AND HIS WIFE ANNA IS A JOKE.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Sorry, I thought "I guarantee you'll get sued for copyright infringement" meant that you were guaranteeing I would get sued for copyright infringement. My bad.

[seawolf17]

Perhaps we need to bring back smilies after all.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

It's not just you, Bret. I didn't get the joke either. I just thought, "huh?"

[Elster88]

I realize it wasn't that funny. But I didn't realize people would take it seriously.

Come on, is there a more absurd statement that I could've made? I know it's a message board and it's hard to pick it up when a stupid little statement was supposed to be a stupid little joke, but geez.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Sorry, I thought "I guarantee you'll get sued for copyright infringement" meant that you were guaranteeing I would get sued for copyright infringement. My bad.

Apology accepted.

[Guest Rotblatt]

]I saw it. No need for the tone.

Well, okay, but if you saw it, then why would you ask if I thought the Benson trade was "about shutting the door on [Heilman]" when that was clearly nowhere near my point?

I figured you were either taking my quote out of context--giving the impression that I thought the Benson trade (and not the hypothetical Weaver trade I referenced in the sentence preceding the quote you pulled) would result in Heilman being used in mop-up duty--or that you misread my post. I just figured it was the latter.

]Your point wasn't about whether Heilman should be ahead of Zambrano in the rotation, but that he'd end up in the back of the bullpen pitching mopup innings. If that's your position, then fine, we'll put it in the prediction archives and see.

No, my point was that I don't trust Willie to make smart use of the pitchers he's given. I then suggested that Omar could have helped Willie by weeding out the average veterans and hanging on to the younger guys with upside. Instead, alas, Omar got rid of one of the younger guys with upside and one of the average veterans, which I think will just confuse poor Willie.

]Any reasonable debate tends to degenerate when the word "apologists" gets tossed around. There's no need for namecalling.

How is calling defenders of the Benson trade "apologists" name calling? Isn't that the definition of an apologist?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

It makes my morning, Rot, to see Edgy pulling his passive-aggressive, tone-correcting, schoolmarmish, superior behavior with posters other than myself. It really does. When I notice this crap, I can once again reassure myself that all the issues between us were not caused by me alone, so though this frustrating for you to get caught up in, I can tell you

1) there's no help. This is just "Arguing issues with Edgy." Be prepare to to be talked down to and infuriated, or just walk away now

and

2) someone needs to do it.

Thanks.

[Guest Hillbilly]

But let's compare point by point
Lets review your points, point by point.

1. Pedro 2005 vs Pedro 2006. Pedro 2005 is better. In 2005, he's a year younger, a year further from breaking down. No brainer.

Oh I used my brain, and understand that declines for aging pitchers are inevitable. I also would say they are not predictable, linear, nor consistent. In 2005 Pedro had a fine year with no signs of decline. It�s completely reasonable to expect a �Pedro like� year from him again.

2. Glavine 2005 vs Glavine 2006. Same deal

Here the data are clear. Glavine was by far his best in his first year with Mets, and last year he looked washed up. (Please don�t miss the sarcasm). Like I said declines aren�t linear, or predictable. Remember when your Red Sox thought Clemens was washed up? His numbers sure made it look like he was a pitcher about to be on the wrong side of 35 that was in the middle of a decline coming at the end of his career. I�m sure if you Red Sox fans could get over your bitter hatred of �Roger the traitor�, you�d admit that he had many good years ahead and worth ever penny we asked for prior to 1997 season.

3. Benson 2005 vs. Trachsel 2006. (I'm moving Zambrano down a slot because it's an easier comparison.) Benson wins narrowly, I think. He's younger, has more upside (not realized, but we didn't know that at the time, we were expecting Cy Young junior maybe.) About equally effective, if you don't consider age and potential as valid considerations.

You moved Zambrano down a slot, because you thought it made it easier to �prove� your preconceived notions and stay on the agenda.

4. Zambrano 2005 vs Zambrano 2006. Every year that his guy shleps on wihitout becoming a quality pitcher is another nail in his coffin. Eventually he'll have all the nails he needs, and we'll bury him and move on.

You go on talking about nails, he�ll likely be a good middle of the rotation guy. His numbers beyond W&L looked a hell of a lot like Benson�s in 2005.
5.Ishii 2005 vs. Heilman 2006. Heilman's better.

Which is not saying much, but this could be a whole hell of a lot better.

So I count that four rounds for the 2005 rotation, one round for the 2006 bunch. "By Yoo-namimous decision, the winnah is..."



�Yoo-namimous� means 4-1? Somehow I think you made this up.

The fact remains that there is not a large difference in the expected quality of this projected starting staff for 2006 and the opening day staff of 2005. With all your fancy logic of �nails�, �shelps� and �Yoo-namimous decisions� you did nothing to convince me otherwise. All you did was set up a bunch of strawmen and knocked them over one by one. Your right, it is a �no-brainer�!!!