Philospohical Discussion - How Long Do You Wait?

[Zvon]

Im the slowest typer on the board.
Dont deny it.

I think Reyes discipline at the plate is key.
Id like to see more walks, but id settle for him only swinging at pitches around the strike zone. Also, knowing [u:f72b503943]when[/u:f72b503943] to take a pitch.
I want to see him thinking more like a ballplayer who knows the repercussions of his decisions. Who is aware of situational play.
What Im looking for experience growth.

I do expect to see some of that in some form or another over the 2006 season.
Id be happy to afford him the time for this growth.

To continue being a lead off hitter at this level he would have to continue to improve.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

What we're saying here, seems to me, is that we've never had an adequate offensive shortstop (outside of HoJo, and he hardly counts as a shortstop), which is fairly amazing.

In 40 years, if Reyes is our best offensive shortstop ever, we've never had one who rose above 100 OPS+ for a whole season?

Incredible.

Is there a team anywhere that went over four decades without a superior offensive season at a position?

"Offensive Juggernauts at Shortstop for the Mets" could go on my bookshelf next to "Brilliant Italian Military Strategies of the 20th Century,"
"The Ethics of Tom DeLay," "Great American Short Story Writers Before Poe."

[nymr83]

] In 40 years, if Reyes is our best offensive shortstop ever, we've never had one who rose above 100 OPS+ for a whole season?

who are "we", i thought you weren't a Met fan anymore?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Rinse and repeat.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Personally, I found many of 0rdonez's seasons to be pretty offensive.


Going strictly from memory, Reyes' numbers in 2005 were probably as good as it gets for a Mets shortstop. Matsui in 2004 was probably the standard (offensively) up to that point.

Hopefully, Reyes will end all possible debate on this subject with a strong 2006 campaign.

[Zvon]

Am I the only one who remembers back in the days before Cal Ripken, when 99.9% of all shortstops were primarily valued for their glovework?

Im not surprized at all that Reyes has posted numbers that offensively top the list of Met shortstops.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I'm astonished as I look back, and compare fan expectations to today, that the Mets ever got away with what Jerry Grote (with a spoon) brought offensively his first few years.

Look it up! My god. He'd be booed out of the park faster than you can say, "Greg Goossen."

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Cal Ripken certainly changed the shortstop position. However, for the majority of their history, the Mets have had shortstops that lagged behind their peers offensively. Roy McMillan, Bud Harrelson, Rafael Santana, Ron Gardenhire, Kevin Elster, Frank Taveras, and Rey Ordonez didn't strike fear in many pitchers.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I'm not saying Bud was, on balance, a terrific player--even in the context of the sixties his numbers are incredibly weak. But by promoting him, and living with his limitations, and others like Garrett and Gentry and Grote and Boswell and Swoboda and Kranepool, the Mets were able to afford the Clendenons and the Staubs. The analogy is to the solutions currently in the farm system, if they would only look for them, who could play a position or two and free up payroll for superstar FAs elsewhere. It's the height of foolishness to pay top dollar for mediocrities like Matsui and Mientkiewicz when there are probably kids in the farm system (someone else's if not ours) who could do a decent job for cheap.

[MFS62]

Is it safe to say that the only Met shortstop who went on to hit .300 for another teams after leaving the Mets was Aaron Ledesma? And that was in limited duty.
And Felix Mantilla went to Boston and hit over 30 Homers (IIRC) with about a .275 BA. Thise were pretty decent offensive numbers for a pre-Ripken shortstop.

Of course, from Vern Stephens and Joe Cronin to Rico Petrocelli, while other teams looked at short as a defensive position as someone said above (Zvon?) , the Sawks always seemed to have decent hitting shortstops in the pre-Ripken days.

Later

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Kevin Elster had a big offensive season years after he left the Mets. I think he once drove in 100 runs for the Texas Rangers.

[MFS62]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Kevin Elster had a big offensive season years after he left the Mets. I think he once drove in 100 runs for the Texas Rangers.

Close- his textbook definition of a career year saw him hit 24 HR with 99 RBI. (and I wonder if he still blames some slow footed player for not scoring from second on his single)

Later

[Guest KC]

Sal, er, I mean Bret ... when you start talking about the 60's and drawing
analogies and say things about living with limitations so a team can do this
and that - I wanna do that B film comedy bullshit sneeze thing.

It's probably just me. Sorry.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: What we're saying here, seems to me, is that we've never had an adequate offensive shortstop (outside of HoJo, and he hardly counts as a shortstop), which is fairly amazing. Is there a team anywhere that went over four decades without a superior offensive season at a position?

So what you're saying is, most teams have had an above average shortstop, and that it takes a rare, very poorly run team to have had the Mets' history at SS?

[Elster88]

]top dollar for mediocrities like Matsui and Mientkiewicz when there are probably kids in the farm system (someone else's if not ours)

Fortunately, the Mets didn't do this.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Well, they are paying top dollar to Matsui. I don't remember what Mientkiewicz was making, but I suspect he wasn't that expensive.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Yancy--Mientk made $3,750,000 last year, or a smidgen less than Delgado. Personally, I'd rather have had Delgado.

KC wrote: Sal, er, I mean Bret ... when you start talking about the 60's and drawing analogies and say things about living with limitations so a team can do this and that - I wanna do that B film comedy bullshit sneeze thing. It's probably just me. Sorry.

It's not you. It's total bullshit. There are almost no similiarlties between the economics of 1960s baseball and 2000s baseball, particularly in terms of freeing up FA money.

But it wasn't uncommon, especially when Hodges wanted to make a point to complacent and well-paid veterans, for some fresh kid to make the team and sometimes the starting lineup or rotation with a good Spring Training. When's the last time that happened around here?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]What we're saying here, seems to me, is that we've never had an adequate offensive shortstop (outside of HoJo, and he hardly counts as a shortstop), which is fairly amazing. Is there a team anywhere that went over four decades without a superior offensive season at a position? So what you're saying is, most teams have had an above average shortstop, and that it takes a rare, very poorly run team to have had the Mets' history at SS?

No, I'm just saying exactly what I'm saying. I can't think of another team that, since 1962, has never had a superior offensive season at a single position. Off the top of my head, for example, I can easily name you multiple Mets at other positions who've had superior offensive years (as measured by OPS+ over a full year):

C Piazza, obviously, Carter, Hundley,maybe even Stearns (I'll suggest that the Mets might actually lead baseball in most OPS+ full seasons for catchers since 1962, despite a very slow start)
1B Hernandez, Olerud, probably Brogna
2B Kent, Hunt
SS ????
3B HoJo, Ventura, Wright
RF Straw, Staub
CF Agee, Lance Johnson
LF McReynolds, Gilkey, Floyd

[MFS62]

Bret, you forgot Cleon Jones' 151OBS+ in 1969.

Later

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I forgot plenty. That was just off the top of my flat head.

The point is that better-than-average offensive years come, for most teams, 2 out of three years (or more) at 1B or LF, and perhaps 1 in 5 years (or even or 1 in 10) at SS and C.

So far, the Mets are 0-for-44 at SS. I think that's very unusual.

Elster thinks I'm making some point here beyond that. I'm not. It's just unusual.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Also, I doubt what I said about catcher--teams since 62 with more strong offensive catcher's season are probably NYY (Howard, Munson, Posada), Cincy (Bench), Detroit (Freehan,, Parrish, Tettleton,) the Cards (Simmons and Porter), Boston (Fisk, Varitek), maybe even Montreal (Carter).

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Just running down the NL since 1962, for example, off the top of that flat head, here's at least one superior offensive season for a team's shortstop (bear in mind that some of these teams have had many such years, and several such shortstops. I just stopped when I remembered one who qualified):

Atlanta Blauser
Chicago Dunston
Cincinnati Concepcion
Houston Thon
Los Angeles Wills
NY Mets ???
Philadelphia Rollins
Pittsburgh Alley
St. Louis Ozzie
San Francisco Aurelia

[Theoldmole]

SL and San Diego Templeton

[RealityChuck]

And why does this matter?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Just geek stuff, 's all. Just numbers. No importance, really.

But can you name another team that's been around since 1962 who have a position that's never turned in a positive OPS+ over a whole season?

[Elster88]

]Mientk made $3,750,000 last year,

Ugh. That was more than I thought. I retract my previous statement and apologize to the court.

________________
This post had the designation 88) Randy Myers

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Elster thinks I'm making some point here beyond that. I'm not. It's just unusual.

I did. It really seemed like you did, still does just from rereading that one post. Thanks for the clarification. SC = zero.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I didn't realize Mientkiewicz made that much either.

That was way more than Mientkiewicz was worth.

[Guest vtmet]

a minor league contract was more than Doug MieSwingWasMadeForArtificialTurfButMyWheelsWereNotWicz was worth...he panned out like I expected, no wonder why the Sox only wanted an injured single A player for him...

[Guest KC]

I think the Sox sent some money over with Eye Chart in the trade. I don't
know what % of that huge salary though.