Kinder, Gentler Gotham Thread

[G-Fafif]

My Gotham homies are in Dallas tracking down winter meetings news as it happens. Me, I bring you no scoops and no sources. Just this:

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10032

[MFS62]

That was scary.
But not as good as the parody of that story I did about Pete Rose (and posted here last year or so).

Later

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

From an Angel perspective, that was a swap of their Greatest Player Ever for their Greatest Player Ever. Has any other team ever done such a thing?

[MFS62]

From the reactions of fans of both teams at the time (and since*), I would think the Rocky Colavito for Harvey Kuenn trade came close.
Of course neither was the best all time player for those teams (Cleveland and Detroit) but they were the best on their team at the time of the deal.


* I spoke to a Detroit fan two years ago and the guy was still grousing about the deal.

Later

[seawolf17]

That was fun to read; nice job by GB.

[MFS62]

In case you forgot, here's mine. I have a friend who calls himself GADawg, who is a big Reds fan. We got into a discussion about Pete Rose. And one year I worte this just for him.
Enjoy,
Later

****************************************************************************
A Baseball Carol


Ebineezer Rose called his assistant, GA Dawg into his office. �GA� he snarled,� it looks like that website you designed for me isn�t working. And the rest of the public relations campaign to get me into the Hall of Fame isn�t either.� He continued, �so, it looks like I�ll have to let you go.�

�But Mr. Rose� gasped GA Dawg, �how will I tell my family that I no longer have an income? How will I feed them?�

�I told you to put ten grand on the Yankees� sweep, kid.� replied Rose. �But you�re one of those ridiculously naive hero worshipers who still believe I know nothing about betting on baseball. Now, get outta� here.�

Sadly, GA Dawg packed up his belongings and went home. �How WILL I tell my family?� he wondered. Unconcerned, Ebineezer Rose called his bookie to place a few last minute bets, made a reservation for dinner, and left the office. He made sure not to wear the hat with his website URL on the front.

Once he got home, Rose immediately took off the disguise he was wearing to fool the media. �No sense wasting my time posing for photo-ops anymore� he thought. He slowly removed his suit and put on his old Reds uniform and batting helmet and sat back in his recliner to watch ESPN. He mumbled to himself, �I�ll never watch NBC again� as he slowly dozed off.

A while later there was a knock at the door. Ebineezer rose slowly while trying to think of whether he was up to date in his payments to No Neck Willie. Once he assured himself that he was, he opened the door. It was an all-too- familiar face. He stammered, �I t-t-t-thought you were �. dead.� � Who, or what, ARE you?� he asked.

An ashen Bart Giammatti seemed to glide into the room. �I am the Ghost of Baseball Past� he replied, �and we are going to take a trip back in time.�

�Not with me, you�re not!� snarled Rose. �We went through all those questions before and you got my answers. I�m not rehashing that stuff again.�

�Don�t worry,� replied the Ghost in a suddenly calming manner. �We�re going to a far better place.�

Suddenly, they were whisked outside, but not just to his front yard. �I sort of know this place,� said Rose, �But it looks different. Where are we?�

�Its Yankee Stadium, about fifty years ago.� Replied the Ghost. He continued �Its Babe Ruth Day, and over 70,000 people are paying their respects to their dying hero.�

�You can�t fool me.� snickered Ebineezer, � Ruth lived the high life, too. He was always visiting speakeasies during Prohibition, smoking those big cigars, and, with the women�.�

�It didn�t matter,� interrupted the ghost, �he never denied any of that activity, even when drinking was illegal. But the fans of his time appreciated the fact that he never tried to hide his actions, and forgave him. More importantly, they realized that he was the person who had resurrected their game from the ashes of the Black Sox Scandal and the boredom of the dead ball era. His records were secondary, though. It was his persona they adored.�

�You look puzzled. What are you thinking?� asked the ghost.

Rose thought a while and replied, �If I had played here, I�d probably have had more homers down that short right field porch. But maybe I�d have lost some hits on the natural grass.�

Ebineezer awoke in his chair. �Must have been a bad dream.� he thought. �I�ll just change into my pajamas and hit the sack. That will teach me to have extra onions on those burgers.� He fell asleep counting his base hits.

The knock on the door startled him. �What now?� he wondered. When he opened the door, he was face to face with one of the most famous people of the Twentieth Century � Fidel Castro. �What the Hell are you doing here?� he asked.

�I am the Ghost of Baseball Future, Senor. And you are going on another little trip.� Before he could protest, they were in the living room of a small house. GA Dawg entered the room with a young man.

�Dad, can we go to a baseball game today?� the boy asked. � I thought we�d drive downtown and catch a game. We haven�t done that for a long time, ever since I was captured in the invasion of Liechtenstein. All the time I was in that POW camp, all I thought about was baseball.�

�Gee, GA Pup�, his father replied, �I hadn�t thought about baseball since Ebineezer Rose fired me about ten years ago. I don�t know how to tell you this, but there is no baseball here any more. After the Rose scandal, and all the crying hearts who wanted him reinstated and put into the Hall of Fame, all Hell broke loose. The Commissioner relented, and Rose was made eligible again, even though he never admitted his guilt. When he was elected to the Hall of Fame, the fans were outraged. Then Congress voted to investigate Major League Baseball (Some Senator from Shoeless Joe Jackson�s home state started it, I think. Joe never got in. ). Based on what they found, financial irregularities and such, baseball�s anti-trust exemption was lifted and the owners� books were exposed.�

�The fans were so shocked, they stayed away in such numbers that the Major Leagues folded. The nearest place where they�re playing baseball today is Cuba. Doing all right in Latin America, Asia and Europe, though. The commissioner of the new worldwide league is someone named Dr. Dooby. Those Communists in Cuba never had a profit motive, though, so the game was played for the sheer fun of it. The fans still love it there. I can�t believe it; baseball�s dead. And all because some ballplayer didn�t face his own weaknesses and admit he�d done us wrong. Anyhow, how about us going to a soccer game?�

Ebineezer turned toward the grinning Castro and said, �I never thought I was going to hurt the game I loved. This is terrible. I�m going to call the Commissioner when we get back and tell him I�ll ask for forgiveness, but leave it up to him whether or not he wants to reinstate me.� He sobbed �I never wanted to hurt the game���..� As they were about to leave, Rose turned to Fidel and asked �Since you�re going to be flying me directly back to my house, do you think we could stop off in your country first and get me a few boxes of cigars?�

�Sorry, nino,� I gave my entire supply to Marge Schott. You�ll have to rough it.� And they were gone.

The next morning, Rose awoke and immediately called the Commissioner to disclose his plan. He then dressed, admired himself one more time in the mirror, took a cigar from the box he never recalled seeing before, and left his house. He drove directly to the house of GA Dawg.

When the door was opened, the men stared at each other for a moment before Ebineezer spoke. �I�m sorry. Can I come in? We have to talk.� The always-polite GA Dawg stepped aside and allowed him to enter. �Why are you here?� he asked.

�I�m offering you your old job back.� Rose smiled, �I called the Commissioner and will be making a public statement admitting to what I did. I have to, for the good of the game. And I�ll need someone to manage the appearances on television and the book deals that may come my way. You did that well before, and I just know you can do it well again.�

�That�s great Mr. Rose, but I don�t need your job. When the word got out that I was no longer working for you, I got a call from the Democratic National Committee. They wanted me to manage Bill Clinton�s Public Relations staff after he leaves office. I accepted. I guess they figured if I could keep the public in the dark about your actions�..� His voice trailed off.

There was another knock at the door. �What the Dickens is going on around here?� GA Dawg asked to himself. Standing in the doorway was a shabbily clad figure. He asked the person who he was.

�I�m Bud Selig. Your other guest has called me a pontificating windbag.� He said, nodding toward Rose, �So I guess that makes me the Gust of Baseball Present.�

After seriously considering slamming the door in the visitor�s face for that terrible pun, GA Dawg let him in.

�I finally tracked you down.� He said, � I got the message you left. And I�m ready to give you a gift. I guess you could call me Selig-Clause.�

Rose interrupted, �Where did you get that terrible suit?� Flustered, Selig replied �The Sears in Milwaukee.�

�Don�t they have any other men�s clothing stores in that town?� Rose asked quizzically.

�Nope�, replied Selig, �We�re a small market city, even for haberdashers.�

He continued, �Today�s polls show that while 64% of fans think your numbers are good enough for the Hall, 104% of fans still consider you a reprehensible slug. I voted a few extra times myself. So did Ray Fosse and Bud Harrelson. But its not too late to turn this thing around. If you come to my office immediately and sign the proper paperwork, I will reinstate you and declare you eligible for the Hall. It will be for the good of the game.�

�Wow, that�s great!� shouted GA Pup. �I�m so happy I feel like singing. Mr. Rose, do you know any good songs?�

Rose thought a while, especially about future generations of kids playing soccer, asked �Can I sign today?� and began to sing.

�Hark, the Herald Angels Shout
Screw those guys in Eight Men Out�

[G-Fafif]

Good stuff, MF!

[Guest rpackrat]

Nice story, but I'm not sure what your point is. Are you arguing that a GM should never trade young players for veterans on the off chance that one of those young players might become a Nolan Ryan? Follwowing that logic, we never would have traded Floyd Youmans, Mike Fitzgerald, Herm Winningham and Hubie Brooks for Gary Carter, or Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnall and Geoff Goetz for Mike Piazza. Hindsight is always 20-20 and it's easy to criticize the Ryan-Fregosi trade, but a hard rule against trading prospects for vets makes no sense. Most prospects do not become impact players. That we tend to remember when we trade one of those very few does not change this fact.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The record shows, though, that the Mets have been scrod on this score far more often than not.

I think the key to such trades is to do them sparingly. Too many such deals puts too many eggs in too few baskets with expiration dates too near.

I'm convinced that an underappreciated key to player development is redundancy. If you have several shortstops doing about as well as each other, the trick is not necessarily to figure out early which one is the best, fast-track him and trade some of the others and marginalize the rest, but rather to retain as many as possible and allow the cream to rise to the top as they all battle within the sytem.

The Mets have shed a lot of their redundancy, and suddenly unknowns like Phil Humber's elbow, Mike Pelfrey's negotiations, and Alain Soler's... everything have become very crucial to the sustainability of this team.

[G-Fafif]

rpackrat wrote: Nice story, but I'm not sure what your point is. Are you arguing that a GM should never trade young players for veterans on the off chance that one of those young players might become a Nolan Ryan?

Never's a long time and no, it's not my point. If anything, I've spent the winter defending Omar's moves. I want to win now. I want to win now every year. The Mets are a little short on having won now, so I'm all for taking a shot with the players who have the best chance of making it so. But everything is a risk-reward situation and sometimes the risk yields no to little reward. The next Nolan Ryan is one possible outcome. The next Gary Carter or Mike Piazza -- the veteran acquired pays off and is worth the youngsters sent in exchange -- is also a possible outcome. I was just having fun with one of those outcomes.

For the record, as a 9-year-old I thought

1) Good. Nolan Ryan's never going to become a winning pitcher.
2) Fregosi? Isn't he a shortstop? And we're getting him to play third base? That doesn't make any sense.

Oh well. I was halfway there.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

]The record shows, though, that the Mets have been scrod on this score far more often than not.

Really? My impression is that the Nolan Ryan deal was more the exception than the rule.

I think of some of the other young players that I regretted losing: Shawn Abner, David West, Alex Escobar, Billy Beane, Terrence Long...

Some of the deals were better than others, but I can't think of many veteran for youth deals involving the Mets where the team that acquired the youth fared appreciably better. And in at least one of the cases the Mets ended up doing better, such as Mazzilli for Darling and Terrell.

[smg58]

Jason Isringhausen for Billy Taylor. Melvin Mora for Mike Bordick. And Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano has already benefited the D-Rays more than the Mets; the only detail remaining is how much more. The verdict is still out on whether not waiting for two months on Benson was worth parting with Huber, although it doesn't look like the Bucs have anything to show for that exchange.

On the other hand, Burnitz for Victor Diaz and Alomar for Royce Ring still could work significantly in our favor, and certainly didn't hurt the Mets or benefit the Dodgers or White Sox in the short term.

[Elster88]

Edit: I'm confused.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't get it. He just listed two young players --- one considered a washout and the other considered a marginal prospect --- who were dealt for veteran players who offered little to the Mets for a short while. Both went on to all-star careers they're still enjoying

Along with Ryan, there was Otis, Singleton, and Foli for Staub. Staub is and was fine, but the total win shares coughed up in them. Staub was the team's best hitter perhaps on their championship team but by then Singleton was already one of the best hitters in the American League with a long All-Star career ahead of him.

Then there's the Carlos Baerga and Juan Samuel trades. A half a dozen young outfielders and firstbasemen from the mid-90s went on to have productive careers after the Mets gave up on them.

Segui (moved for Reid Cornelius).
Brogna (Ricardo Jordan and Toby Borland)
Everett (John Hudek)
Burnitz (with Joe Roa for Byrd, DiPoto, and Mlicki --- not bad, this one)

OK, that's four, and the last trade was pretty even, but they also moved Vizcaino (half of Baerga) and Vi�a (with Javier Gonzalez for Doug Henry)

A lot of forgettable non-descript guys, but players who had good careers --- moved for marginalia.

That era that I focused on there was that of Joe McIllvaine, who I'm showing sympathy for in another trade. Obviously he made at least one fine youth-for-vet acquisition in Person/Olerud, but these are rare, and you see how many failed, and they also cost money in higher salaries also.

A study linked at the Crane Pool last year showed, measured in future win shares exchanged, the Mets have easily the worst trading record of the Mets era. That's the "record" I was citing.

[G-Fafif]

A couple of noteworthy Met items on Gotham today, both from Mike McGann in Dallas.

He rounds up some thoughts from Willie, most notably a straight-faced insistence that Kaz is his 2B.

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10261

And -- this I found surprising -- Jeff Wilpon is by no means an impediment to progress or universally considered a nimrod with a lucky last name.

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1732

Judge for yourself if you like.

Thanks!

[G-Fafif]

A couple of noteworthy Met items on Gotham today, both from Mike McGann in Dallas.

He rounds up some thoughts from Willie, most notably a straight-faced insistence that Kaz is his 2B.

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10261

And -- this I found surprising -- Jeff Wilpon is by no means an impediment to progress or universally considered a nimrod with a lucky last name.

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1732

Judge for yourself if you like.

Thanks!

[Frayed Knot]

The 'Blame the rich owner's son' route is always easy and seemed just a bit too convenient for my taste. I think a lot of fans (and media) simply decided to hate or blame "Jeffy" first and not even bother with asking the questions as to whether he actually deserved it or not.


And I've said this before, but I hope either Willie's telling the truth about his feelings about Matsui, or at least that keeping him is being cosidered as an option. Obviously he hasn't lived up to advance billing and if someone will take the contract you'd do it, but the second you say you HAVE TO get rid of a player (or obtain one for that matter) you open yourself up to a really bad deal.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I've turned into such a cynical bastard I'm half-wondering what favors he's paying back but a fine point about the stereotyping of Jeff Wilpon anyway.

No more leaks? No wonder these guys found the firings such an outrage.

[Zvon]

I read this story last night and it was a lil scary.
But its just a cute lil well written story to me.
Ive seen way to many over rated rookies to worry about what the future holds before hand. Id just as soon let Minaya do his job the way he see's fit for his 1st 3 years here before making a report card or throwing around negative comments. I support my team as much as I possibly can.
Now if he traded away Reyes or Wright today, Id go off this afternoon.
But so far so very good.

I did read he had Grady Sizemore up north and practically gave him away.
Its possible he simply didnt think the Expos had a future, which they didnt, but more so it shows me he's not perfect or infallable. Who is?
Wish he threw Grady our way for the price that kid plays for.

I probly gave this card out before but sometimes you get doubles.

[Frayed Knot]

]I did read he had Grady Sizemore up north and practically gave him away.

Sizemore was dealt (with others) for Bartolo Colon so it's tough to argue that he was "given away".
You can certainly question the wisdom and timing of that trade plus the subsequent one that sent Colon away after a short stint in Montreal, but Omar and the 'Spos were certainly operating under a different set of circumstances.

[G-Fafif]

Sweet and cinematic reminiscence on Kong (or Sky King)...

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1767

[MFS62]

G-Fafif wrote: Sweet and cinematic reminiscence on Kong (or Sky King)...

Sky King?
I remember that tv show. I had the hots for his niece, Penny.

Later

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I have similar memories of that crushing night for Met hopes.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Bruce Boisclair replaced Kong and had two hits.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Yeah but you knew it was over anyway.

Bonus fun fact: I listened to that game on a transistor radio in Chris Walsh's backyard, where were "camping out" that night. Chris Walsh couldn't care a lick about the Mets and has not accomplished anything in life since, as far as I know.

[Guest Edgy DC]

That name is too common to isolate.


Chris Walsh, football official in Indiana.


Chris Walsh, Meeting/Social Coordinator for the Valencia (Florida) Community College Gay/Straight Alliance, despite looking 20 years older than his fellow CC students.


Chris Walsh, Professor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School. Not a gray hair on his head, though.


Chris Walsh, Outreach Coordinator, coincidentally enough for the University of British Columbia Pride club.

I don't think I'm going to find him, but maybe your guy Chris is an officer in a gay students club somewhere also.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I have no idea what became of him, but I'd start looking in the police blotters.

[Guest Mark Healey]

http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1782

Some odds and ends from Dallas.

[Guest Edgy DC]

How 'bout that Adam Ross? Dave Kingman was the most popular lookup yesterday.

[Guest Mark Healey]

Edgy DC wrote: How 'bout that Adam Ross? Dave Kingman was the most popular lookup yesterday.

LOL..it's Aaron Ross...and I'll pass along the love...