Not Just Viagra ...

[Frayed Knot]

WFAN: MLB set to announce within the hour that Raphael Palmiero hs tested positive for steroids.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Slam!

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

holy career crisis, batman.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Let's hope they catch Giambi too

[soupcan]

I'm stunned.

Stunned at his stupidity mostly. Not surprised that he takes 'roids, just at the fact that continued to do so after everything that happened surrounding the allegations against him.

What's next - McGwire, I-Rod and Sosa testing positive?

Stop the freaking presses.

[Frayed Knot]

Ahh, it's no big deal.
So he comes out looking like the slimey one in a contest between him and Jose Canseco. It's not like it's going to cost him his reputation, a shot at 600 HRs plus the Hall-of-Fame or anything. Oh wait ...


Oh yeah, and it brings a lying to Congress charge into play.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Some top players of the passing era:

Bonds: Not officially proven, but established
McGwire: Not officially proven, but established
Palmeiro: Proven
Canseco: Acknowledged and proud.
Camininti: Proven
Sheffield: Not officially proven, but established, and he's been more frank than Bonds.
Giambi: Not officially proven, but seriously established.
Sosa: Not established, but highly suspected, and besides was caught corkin'.
Clemens: Highly suspected.
Piazza: Suspected.

Most Everybody who Starred in Texas: Suspected.

Forget Coors. Walker and Helton may make the Hall of Fame just by making it through their careers untainted.

Those two NPR guys still weren't funny.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Is Piazza seriously supsected by MLB at large, or just by nervous fans like us? At any rate, if we're including Piazza, we have to include Nomar.

[Centerfield]

Wow. How dumb to you have to be to continue juicing now.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm speaking generally. I guess, though, I'm speaking more specifially about my own suspicions, and I don't really care as much about Nomar.

Obviously everybody's a suspect. I threw in Piazza because of a high level of stardom, a famously scupted physique, and some disappointing answers when questioned on the issue. I guess Nomar rises to his level of suspectedness. I don't know.

Those Diamondbacks who got great mid-way or late in their careers --- Luis Gonzalez, Steve Finley, Jay Bell. All were better in their thirties than their twenties. I guess they rise to that level of suspect also.

[Elster88]

]some disappointing answers when questioned on the issue.

I don't remember these. Which Q&As are you referring to?

[Guest ABG]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659

Confirmed.

Palmeiro has bigger issues than the suspension, however. He may very well be in contempt of Congress for his testimony before the Committee.

[soupcan]

="Edgy DC"]Some top players of the passing era: Bonds: Not officially proven, but established McGwire: Not officially proven, but established Palmeiro: Proven Canseco: Acknowledged and proud. Camininti: Proven Sheffield: Not officially proven, but established, and he's been more frank than Bonds. Giambi: Not officially proven, but seriously established. Sosa: Not established, but highly suspected, and besides was caught corkin'. Clemens: Highly suspected. Piazza: Suspected.

I think you could state that Giambi is 'proven'.

Piazza? I've never even heard his name mentioned as a suspect. He was great in his twenties and early thirties, got hurt and then aged as his numbers declined. Seems pretty sensible and natural for a catcher.

I've suspected Clemens but assumed that because he continues to excel and he must of course stopped juicing now if in fact he ever did that he's all natural.

Silly me for assuming that the suspected guys must have stopped.

[seawolf17]

It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. This is an epic disaster for MLB. The one guy who actually didn't come off looking like a moron at the hearings becomes the highest-profile roidhead? Wow.

Can we put Dave Kingman in the HoF now?

[Guest ABG]

seawolf17 wrote: It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out. This is an epic disaster for MLB. The one guy who actually didn't come off looking like a moron at the hearings becomes the highest-profile roidhead? Wow. Can we put Dave Kingman in the HoF now?

The biggest disaster for MLB would be if the tests were proven to be false or the suspension was somehow overturned. That would've completely ended MLB's credibility on steroids and potentially every other issue. Reading and looking at the process, it seems as though they got all their ducks in a row prior to the announcement. Smart play.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, Giambi, like Bonds and Sheffield, is indicted by poorly sealed leaked evidence, and has no failed test or suspension with MLB. Yet we all know the truth, so that's why I distinguish between proven and established.

Piazza, when asked about players who have been caught --- rather than be happy that someone has been caught who has been cheating in competition with him while he's playing fairly --- has lamented that people aren't going to appreciate how hard it is to hit a baseball, juice or no juice, and has even argued (absurdly) that steroids don't really help you hit.

I'll see if I can find a link.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Here's a typical exchange. He's acquitted himself more poorly than this, though.

PLAYBOY: Some people claim that Bonds is on steroids.
=blue]PIAZZA: That's a broad brush. In the past couple of years a few guys have done amazing things, and because everybody lifts weights, people say it's steroids. But hitting isn't just strength. If it were, you would have Mr. Olympia contestants coming off the stage and hitting homers.

PLAYBOY: A lot of hitters look like Mr. Olympia contestants.
=blue]PIAZZA: And a lot of pitchers aren't doing the job. Some of them give up on getting guys out. They're thinking, I don't care if I make a good pitch -- if the guy's on steroids, he'll hit it out of the park.

PLAYBOY: You're blaming the pitchers?
=blue]PIAZZA: I am not denying that some guys use steroids. But when you see a lot of home runs, it's not just steroids. It's the way the game is changing. There's so much emphasis on power. Guys are working out and getting strong, and homers are bound to go up. You've got leadoff hitters who aren't ashamed to strike out 100 times a year, because hitters get paid for homers and RBI, nothing else. "Oh, I struck out 100 times and hit .250, but I hit 30 homers. That's good for $ 6 million or $ 7 million a year." Nobody cares if you get the runner from second to third with no outs.

PLAYBOY: Baseball now has a steroid-testing plan. It's more of a survey, really. The players union says it wants to see if there's a problem before any serious testing starts.
=blue]PIAZZA: It's a first step. But once you open that door, where does it end? Some guys drink a pot of coffee before a game. Is that performance-enhancing? Guys have used greenies -- amphetamines. It's amazing how selective enforcement can be. Painkillers don't carry the same sort of stigma, but they can be abused. Teams are worried about steroids, but they'll load up a pitcher with an anti-inflammatory so he can pitch.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Wow. Playboy asking the tough questions . . . Who knew?

[Elster88]

]Palmeiro has bigger issues than the suspension, however. He may very well be in contempt of Congress for his testimony before the Committee.

I don't know if this is necessarily true. Assuming he's willing to lie again, he could say he never took steroids until after his Congressional hearing, so when he said at the time that he took steroids he wasn't lying.

Obviously anyone with half a brain would see through this, but could it be legally possible to use this line of reasoning to stay of trouble? Can one of the CPF legal team comment?

He also used the word 'intentionally' in that hearing. Maybe that can keep him out of more legal trouble.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Piazza should play tennis, he's so good at making creative returns. One response of his I recall was along those lines:

"They should make a drug for your eyes, that's what would help a hitter."

Yeah, he's a suspect in my mind, but so is everyone. Although the especially obvious ones to me is anyone who played for either Texas team, Oakland and San Diego.

[Guest ABG]

I really think only someone reading with a pre-established "Piazza is on steroids" comes away thinking that that article is evidence of his juicing.

I'd be interested to know when that exchange took place. Until recently, other than Schilling, how many guys were taking a different line than the one Piazza gave in that interview?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Here's a silly answer from 1997 after being asked about the desireability of increased drug testing:

]"I think it's unnecessary in baseball. I mean, would you drug-test billiard players or chess players? You can take a .200 hitter and give him all of the drugs you can find, and would that make him a .300 hitter? No."

That was the year Ken Caminiti, later acknowledged as juiced-to-the-gills, bumped his slugging percentage up by 108 points and beat Piazza for the MVP award.

Nobody really follows up on those evasions with direct "Do you do it?" questons. The only denial I can find also comes from 1997:

]"They don't have to worry about me. When I was born, I broke the mold, and then they beat the heck out of the mold maker."

[seawolf17]

Everyone is suspect again. In fact, this Palmeiro news even casts doubt on the guys like Brian Roberts who have suddenly developed a power stroke. The media have said things like "at least you know Brian Roberts is clean, since testing is so prevalent now." Well, guess what? Roberts and Palmeiro share a locker room. And so have a lot of other guys.

Note: I'm not implying I personally question Roberts' early-season power stroke, I'm just saying that for all MLB's rhetoric, this problem hasn't gone away one iota.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]I really think only someone reading with a pre-established "Piazza is on steroids" comes away thinking that that article is evidence of his juicing.

I didn't say that article was evidence of his juicing, nor do I have any pre-established, or established, position on whether he uses.

My position is that he historically acquits himself poorly by downplaying the effect of steroids, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. That interview was just one case.

[Guest silverdsl]

="seawolf17"]Everyone is suspect again. In fact, this Palmeiro news even casts doubt on the guys like Brian Roberts who have suddenly developed a power stroke. The media have said things like "at least you know Brian Roberts is clean, since testing is so prevalent now." Well, guess what? Roberts and Palmeiro share a locker room. And so have a lot of other guys.

A lot of fans seem to think that the stronger drug testing means that no players are using performance enhancers - obviously not and Palmeiro is proof of that. But also players can go on their merry way using HGH, greenies and designer steroids that they know are undetectible because the urine test wouldn't pick those things up. There will probably always be some players using performance enhancers.

What amazes me more than him putting on that performance in front of Congress is his claim that he has no idea how the steroids got in his body. Please don't insult our intelligence - obviously he took them in some way shape or form. At least use the suppliments/vitamins/snake oil line of BS that other players have used as an excuse.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

What amazes me more than him putting on that performance in front of Congress is his claim that he has no idea how the steroids got in his body

Known hereafter as "The Sheffield Gambit."

[Guest ABG]

]My position is that he historically acquits himself poorly by downplaying the effect of steroids, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. That interview was just one case.

And my position is that his statements are completely in line with what players around baseball have been saying, which indicates to me only that he knows how to read MLBPA talking points.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Still acquitting himself poorly --- whether it suggests he's a suspect, an idiot, or a toadie complicit in other players' abuse.

[Guest ABG]

Edgy DC wrote: Still acquitting himself poorly --- whether it suggests he's a suspect, an idiot, or a toadie complicit in other players' abuse.

By your logic, every ballplayer other than Curt Schilling is a suspect, an idiot or a toadie.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, if so, I wouldn't be the first person in this thread to say that all players from the current era are suspects. But there certainly are players who haven't tried to convince me that steroids don't actually help players.