Who's gonna be the General Manager?

[Frayed Knot]

Even Buster Olney chimes in on the chain of command issues/questions and its effect on future GM'dom.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

but Omar wasn't even up to volume 1! its incredibly irresponsible to overlook that just because Fred is into the guy.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Joel Sherman wrote: The Mets’ rough timeline for naming a general-manager successor to Sandy Alderson is to have a list of roughly 10 to 12 candidates by the end of this month, then pare that further to perhaps a half-dozen to be interviewed and have someone in place prior to the Nov. 4-8 GM meetings.

The names on radar in Mets’ complex, intriguing GM search

Sherman's article goes on to list a wide variety of names.

[Edgy MD]

This happened with the interviews that produced the Sandy Alderson hire. It's really awkward interviewing other GMs' lieutenants while their teams are in the post-season trying to win a championship.

[Frayed Knot]

From that Sherman article:
"Those close to Minaya insist he does not want the GM job, but it is clear that whoever does get the position is going to inherit Minaya as an executive with — at the very least — significant
say in player personnel, and someone who has the ear and trust of ownership."

So if Mr. Potential GM Candidate doesn't want Minaya then he disqualifies himself from the position regardless of other assets/deficits?
Either that, I guess, or he shuts up and grudgingly accepts a right-hand/rival whom he doesn't want who could potentially steer Eff & Jeff towards a move in direct opposition to his choice.

[Ceetar]

nobodies proposing that any of the three existing guys are going to be fired

so of course they have the 'trust' of ownership, or they wouldn't be here.

No one's taking a job that comes with the caveat, "we might just let Omar make the decisions anyway"

No one's turning away advice either. It's going to be framed as "We hired Omar to do X. We trust him in this regard, and hope you'll take his immense knowledge and talent into consideration."

This isn't abnormal, within baseball or outside of it. Whenever a new exec comes on board he or she has existing employees with highly regarded opinions to deal with. I imagine at first new hires get a little longer lease to 'work their magic', and the meddling comes later, but we'll see I guess.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, between this (if it's true) and the promise that Mickey would be back next year (if it's true) they're making this position less desirable. It will be harder to lure a top candidate away from a good position in another organization.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: It's going to be framed as "We hired Omar to do X. We trust him in this regard, and hope you'll take his immense knowledge and talent into consideration."

But it's one thing for the new GM to take Omar's advice into consideration vs the Wilpons maybe going over the GM's head in favor of what Omar wants to do.

What I think most gets the 'Pons into trouble is that they're stuck between wanting to hire a guy they can trust but then never quite letting go of the idea that at times they know better.
That's what Steinbrenner used to do in the Bronx but his advancing age and Cashman having enough pull in the org to put his foot down eventually kept (at least most of) the
decisions from being ping-pong-ed between the Bronx & Tampa depending on who whispered into George's ear most recently.
Not coincidentally (seeing as how he and George were fast friends) I suspect this is much of what goes on in 1600 Penn Ave these days as well.


Take the training wheels off and trust that the new guy isn't going to crash his brand new shiny bike by December 26th. And if you're not sure he can manage that then don't hire him.

[Edgy MD]

I guess most management hires come with underlings who you didn't choose but were assured you'd accept their presence.

Omar has the right idea in not throwing his hat into the ring. If he got the job, he'd be a lightning rod of controversy from day 1. Plus, lieutenants last longer than generals. Bud Harrelson said (only somewhat jokingly) that taking the job of manager was the dumbest move he ever made — that he could've stayed as a coach and become one of those institutional guys that never moves on through several regime changes.

[Centerfield]

But it's one thing for the new GM to take Omar's advice into consideration vs the Wilpons maybe going over the GM's head in favor of what Omar wants to do.

Yup.

What I think most gets the 'Pons into trouble is that they're stuck between wanting to hire a guy they can trust but then never quite letting go of the idea that at times they know better. That's what Steinbrenner used to do in the Bronx but his advancing age and Cashman having enough pull in the org to put his foot down eventually kept (at least most of) the decisions from being ping-pong-ed between the Bronx & Tampa depending on who whispered into George's ear most recently. Not coincidentally (seeing as how he and George were fast friends) I suspect this is much of what goes on in 1600 Penn Ave these days as well. Take the training wheels off and trust that the new guy isn't going to crash his brand new shiny bike by December 26th. And if you're not sure he can manage that then don't hire him.

Yup. And give the new guy enough money to fund an adequate payroll.

Sadly, I see little chance of any of this happening. Instead they will:

*Hire another yes-man.
*Muddle the chain of command by surrounding him with Minaya/Ricco/etc.
*Meddle
*Fund a mid market payroll and talk about how "Spending doesn't equate winning"
*Point to the bounceback we've seen from Vargas, Bruce, Frazier and talk about how they will be strong pieces for next year's team. And if we can just stay healthy...

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: *Point to the bounceback we've seen from Vargas, Bruce, Frazier and talk about how they will be strong pieces for next year's team. And if we can just stay healthy...

I mean, there _is_ value in players that are playing well right? The opposite is to just jettison everyone that underperforms for a bit.

[Edgy MD]

I'm really surprised to read that Mark Shapiro is only 51.

I don't think he's coming, but we'll see.

[Frayed Knot]

Sherman's follow-up article on this topic.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Frayed Knot wrote: Sherman's follow-up article on this topic.

All Sherman does is get scoops and do bang-on analysis.

To me that seems about an accurate a read on the Pons as possible, and far harder on out-of-touch Fred than on just-simply-unlikable Jeff.

[MFS62]

Frayed Knot wrote: Sherman's follow-up article on this topic.

Like I said (in another thread), a plan.
With "what if this goes bad" contingencies.
Later

Edited September 5, 2018 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

But who's going to SHOW US THE PLAN ?!?


Old timers here are chuckling right now

[MFS62]

Frayed Knot wrote: But who's going to SHOW US THE PLAN ?!? Old timers here are chuckling right now

Old timers here?
I joined two days after you did. Did I miss a thread about planning in those two days?
Later

[Frayed Knot]

I'm talking about those who go back to the old forum, the one that predated (and eventually caused) this one.

[Frayed Knot]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Sherman's follow-up article on this topic. All Sherman does is get scoops and do bang-on analysis. To me that seems about an accurate a read on the Pons as possible, and far harder on out-of-touch Fred than on just-simply-unlikable Jeff.

Yeah, it may be fashionable for Met fans to convince themselves that the Wilpons are evil, or that they don't care, or that they'd prefer finishing 4th while making ten bucks to winning but only making five,
but they're not doing themselves any favors by clinging to that. And of course nothing is easier than simply blaming everything that screws up on the rich guy's son, but that can be a misdirection as well.

[MFS62]

I asked a long time baseball fan pal in Canada about Mark Shapiro (as per Sherman's article). Here are his comments:

The Mets are a large market team that spends like a small market team, so of course Shapiro's name has come up. He's a fine yes man who will toe the company line and never ask for anything more from ownership. He's built a solid career in baseball without really being a baseball guy. His strength is finding good qualified people to fill the roles underneath him, and being receptive to their ideas. There are a lot of people around MLB front offices who were once hired by Shapiro. His weakness is his loyalty. Most of his good hires move on to higher roles elsewhere, and he'll stick with his failures like Ross Atkins. That guy has never shown a competence to do anything, and it's led to him a GM role under Shapiro (he built his resumé as farm director of a system that got little to nothing for years by drafting advanced skill/low ceiling talent like Jeremy Sowers, Jeremy Guthrie and Beau Mills). The Indians were fortunate that Chris Antonetti also showed a loyalty to Cleveland. He was the baseball/sabermetric mind in the Indians front office, even while he was an assistant for years under Shapiro. He passed up multiple opportunities to become GM elsewhere, and the Indians were rewarded when Shapiro left town. I'm thrilled with how it worked out for Cleveland, but a team hiring Shapiro could do worse (although it could also do better)... just hope he builds his staff from scratch, or has a young up-and-comer under his wing to bring along. Shapiro is considered new school, but it's not that he's really an advanced stats junkie himself, he's just open-minded to the approach and will lean on his assistants. It's a more democratic/less authoritarian approach than others (as opposed to, I dunno... maybe Dombrowski?). If Atkins is also packing his bags, be worried.

A yes man who will toe the company line, who hires good young people for the organization. Not bad.
Later

[Frayed Knot]

Sherman's march (on this topic) continues.

[Centerfield]

Civil War!

https://nypost.com/2018/09/10/the-internal-war-brewing-over-mets-gm-search/

A civil war of sorts of could be unfolding at the Mets’ highest level, with team owner Fred Wilpon and COO Jeff Wilpon disagreeing on a path to follow in hiring Sandy Alderson’s replacement to lead the front office. As The Post reported last month, the elder Wilpon favors an experienced baseball person with roots in scouting and player development over the industry trend of hiring younger executives with a slant toward analytics. The younger Wilpon would prefer a more analytics-savvy general manager, according to sources.

Um. I agree with Jeff Wilpon?

[Edgy MD]

Better call Saul.

[Ceetar]

does minority owner Jeff Wilpon get a say? I thought those were non-voting shares.

i kid.


but you know what would help this 'disagreement'? bringing in a few of each 'type' and interviewing them, and then getting together as a group and choosing one.

My money's on that happening.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I agree. I have to think that there's somebody out there who can combine those skills. Can't you understand and utilize analytics while also having a command of scouting and player development? Are the two things really that incompatible?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I agree. I have to think that there's somebody out there who can combine those skills. Can't you understand and utilize analytics while also having a command of scouting and player development? Are the two things really that incompatible?

Of course they're not incompatible. But maybe stable genius eff Wilpon, who has the final say, thinks that analytics are a hindrance?

[Edgy MD]

Writers have to write stuff, so we've probably got a case of a guy getting wind of a modest difference in preference and blowing it up into a fierce struggle of incompatible and intractable wills.

This is classick rainy-day copy.

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I agree. I have to think that there's somebody out there who can combine those skills. Can't you understand and utilize analytics while also having a command of scouting and player development? Are the two things really that incompatible? Of course they're not incompatible. But maybe stable genius eff Wilpon, who has the final say, thinks that analytics are a hindrance?

I read a quote yesterday where Wilpon Sr. is obsessed with the Yankees and what they do. No surprise, there. But the punchline was that Wilpon doesn't understand and has no clue as to what the Yankees are doing.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

It's always been very clear to me that Fred is the biggest moron in the organization and it's almost always his interference and incompetence that fucks up the club.

Regular Johnny Lunchbuckets out there have trouble distinguishing those characteristics (Fred's entire career is about having "relationships" mainly with Bernie Madoff and valuing "feel" and appearance over substance and results) from the completely different set bad characteristics possessed by Jeff (snotty, insensitive, autocratic, undeserving, and probably, conflicted by having to appease his crazy old man).

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's always been very clear to me that Fred is the biggest moron in the organization and it's almost always his interference and incompetence that fucks up the club. Regular Johnny Lunchbuckets out there have trouble distinguishing those characteristics (Fred's entire career is about having "relationships" mainly with Bernie Madoff and valuing "feel" and appearance over substance and results) from the completely different set bad characteristics possessed by Jeff (snotty, insensitive, autocratic, undeserving, and probably, conflicted by having to appease his crazy old man).

Hey, kid: I like your style! Bashing eff Wilpon and those hideous Citi Field scoreboards in less than 24 hours. I think you're gonna go places.