batmagadanleadoff

metirish wrote: Jesus , Mary and Chirst look what the cat dragged in. Must be the same cat that�s had my tongue for the past few months. Meow. Edgy DC wrote: Welcome backman, BML. (And holy hell, BML... good to "see" you.) Thanks, guys. If nothing else, Moneyball illustrates that the GM does have a say into field strategy. And given the consistently questionable field strategy of the New SNY Mets, I wonder if Minaya is as much to blame, if not more so, than the field managers. This is a conversation unto itself. Let's just say that this seems to vary widely-- WIDELY-- from clubhouse to clubhouse. The manager's primary JOB is organizing field strategy, and very few successfully-run businesses I know-- sports-related or otherwise-- opt for management doing the jobs of their subordinates. And most businesses --sports related or otherwise�fail when lower management can�t do its� job. What�s good for Billy Beane should be good for the Mets. [You training them to distinguish between drag and sac bunts? Let�s just say that the bunter better be safe at first. Edgy DC wrote: But [Daniel Murphy] certainly could still turn into Dave Magadan, and that's not a bad thing to be (bat him leadoff!). Hey! I thought that David Wright is now the new David Magadan.

Frayed Knot wrote: All that, of course, is on the manager and not the general manager.. I'm not so sure. After reading Moneyball, I'm convinced that Billy Beane might've fired Willie Randolph on the spot right in the middle of a game after watching some of his shenanigans ... like, as one example, sac bunting in the first inning of a game being played in Denver, Colorado where Reyes had already reached second base before the first out was ever made and Wright, Beltran, and Delgado due up and poised to bring in the big innning. If nothing else, Moneyball illustrates that the GM does have a say into field strategy. And given the consistently questionable field strategy of the New SNY Mets, I wonder if Minaya is as much to blame, if not more so, than the field managers. If I was the GM, I'd ring the top of Citi Field with S.W.A.T. sharpshooters trained to shoot any Met between the eyeballs if that batter so much as half- squared around to bunt in the first inning of any game. Second inning, too.

Lou Brock is a deserving Hall of Famer � but an overrated Hall of Famer. And more than mildly so. In fact, if Lou Brock were active today, and the same age as Jose Reyes, I�d rather have Reyes on my team instead of Brock if forced to choose between one of the two without the benefit of knowing Brock�s future performance beyond Reyes� present chronological age, but mainly because Brock ain�t no shortstop. And speaking of Reyes and leadoff-hitters, I might as well segue into the theme of this thread with my one move, which would be to keep Luis Castillo and move him into the leadoff spot in the batting order. Castillo, as flawed as he is, is still the best damn leadoff hitter the Mets have had in the last ten years ever since Rickey Henderson�s 1999 season: he�s certainly a more qualified leadoff hitter than Reyes. Reyes,�my proposed number two hitter who draws less walks than Castillo but drives the ball better than Luis - would be able to move Castillo around the bases far more efficiently than Castillo ever advanced Reyes. I have zero expectations of the Mets ever making this move even though, to my thinking, it�s unquestionably the right move. I�m becoming resigned to the fact that the Mets are run by a bunch off nincompoops who probably care more about the marketing of Jose Reyes and his image as a stolen base guy than actual production and that those two reasons alone will keep Reyes in the leadoff spot. Plus, one added benefit of having Castillo bat leadoff is that you�ll almost never ever see Castillo squaring around to bunt about 45 seconds before the pitcher goes into his windup anymore. I suppose that nobody, not even the Mets, not even Wee Willie Small Ball�s Mets would ask their leadoff hitter to sac bunt with nobody out and nobody on base.

While AH has usually struggled batting from the left side of the plate, he's developed into a respectably efficient batter from the right side, especially by the standards of a backup infielder. Last year, he batted .366 from the right side, albeit in a small number of AB's (41). Here are his up-to-date career BA/OBP/SLG splits: batting lefty:.232/.288/.282 (340 AB's) batting righty: .290/.354/.405 (131 AB's)

Well of course they're not gonna move the fences in next year. It costs money to move the fences in, doesn't it?

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]And another Met opponent showing them up in terms of honoring former contributors with a team HoF event. Check out the big # "5" honoring George Brett at the Royals Hall of Fame. Makes more sense than our big "42".

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: As if they needed insurance. Oh btw -- this is the worst offense in the NL making all our pitchers look bad. I'd say that this Mets version is worser. Wright and Pagan were the only starters on-basing over .326. This month's lineups are about as putrid as anything Joe Torre ever had to drag out during the bad old years of the two-button pullovers.

="G-Fafif"]Verizon Text Poll Question of the Day on CitiVision: What was the Mets' first home? The choices were Shea Stadium, Ebbets Field, the Polo Grounds. This is how Mets fans at Citi Field who participated answered: Shea Stadium: 7% Ebbets Field: 52% Polo Grounds: 41% "Mission accomplished", said Fred to Jeffie.

I'm not sure. That's why I perhapsed my post. But I was posting on the assumption that a certain percentage of the gate automatically went to the visiting team, no matter what.

I wonder if perhaps, those add on and processing fees are treated as separate from ticket sales revenue, and therefore, do not have to be shared with the opposition.

Thanks to Phillips, I now understand why Johan Santana's Earned Run Average is so low.

="Swan Swan H":qgg5ebow]SNY is running the Mr. Koo game as the Mets Classic. Again. As I write this Buck and McCarver are giving Willie a tongue-bath. Anyway, this is at least the fourth time I've seen this game on SNY this year. According to UMDB the Mets have played 7,523 regular season games. Apparently SNY has the rights to show eight of them.[/quote:qgg5ebow] I noticed the same thing. http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10886&sid=2e36b27e63769008dbc4af85452e39c6 Swan Swan H May 25 2009 12:31 PM Oops. I didn't realize there was a separate thread for the Classix. TransMonk Jun 03 2009 03:53 PM Per Metsblog, via Twitter, SI.com�s Jon Heyman announced that Matt Yalloff, formerly of SNY, has joined the MLB Network. G-Fafif Jun 03 2009 03:54 PM ="TransMonk":jrcwlac0]Per Metsblog, via Twitter, SI.com�s Jon Heyman announced that Matt Yalloff, formerly of SNY, has joined the MLB Network.[/quote:jrcwlac0] I'm exhausted just learning that. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 03 2009 05:09 PM So we've got Carlin for good, then. And there are no trades in broadcasting? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 03 2009 06:19 PM ="TransMonk":2gmwiqqi]Per Metsblog, via Twitter, SI.com�s Jon Heyman announced that Matt Yalloff, formerly of SNY, has joined the MLB Network.[/quote:2gmwiqqi] as soda-getter. G-Fafif Jun 04 2009 12:34 PM Kevin Burkhardt just admonished the Pirates for placing a section of wall from Forbes Field, over which Mazeroski's home run flew, in a less than ideal spot at PNC Park. While there's nothing wrong with professing exacting standards (it is weird that it's between two bathrooms), anyone whose job description includes shilling for the history-challenged environs of Citi Field should pick his battles more carefully, as in, perhaps, "what a shape they don't have a Taqueria here in Pittsburgh." Elster88 Jun 24 2009 08:27 PM Carlin auditioning for ESPN doing the highlights. I really can't stand him. Swan Swan H Jun 24 2009 08:42 PM ="Elster88":2eui7q36]Carlin auditioning for ESPN doing the highlights. I really can't stand him.[/quote:2eui7q36] I hoped he'd be different, but you nailed it. Gary Apple may be vanilla, but he hits his marks and doesn't drive me nuts. Among the SNY stable of talkers I wouldn't mind seeing him in that seat. metirish Jun 24 2009 08:45 PM ="Swan Swan H":1bvh8rgw]="Elster88":1bvh8rgw]Carlin auditioning for ESPN doing the highlights. I really can't stand him.[/quote:1bvh8rgw] I hoped he'd be different, but you nailed it. Gary Apple may be vanilla, but he hits his marks and doesn't drive me nuts. Among the SNY stable of talkers I wouldn't mind seeing him in that seat.[/quote:1bvh8rgw] I've thought the same thing about Apple for a while. Elster88 Aug 09 2009 05:52 PM A clean-shaven Johnny Franco doing the post-game. Frayed Knot Aug 09 2009 06:41 PM I'm guessing Franco's had that mustache since, oh I dunno, maybe age 12. OlerudOwned Aug 09 2009 08:04 PM ="Frayed Knot"]I'm guessing Franco's had that mustache since, oh I dunno, maybe age 12. Funny that he'd be clean for a team with a historically mustachioed mascot. Then again, this was during the Schott reign. dgwphotography Aug 10 2009 07:46 AM ="Frayed Knot":30o1llmf]I'm guessing Franco's had that mustache since, oh I dunno, maybe age 12.[/quote:30o1llmf] Sounds like me - I've had at least a mustache for 29 years... Frayed Knot Aug 10 2009 07:59 AM But can't you just picture Johnny F trying to cultivate at least the beginnings of one in Jr High? The Reds - despite the mascot - were long a conservative club with 'no facial hair' restrictions going back even before the Schott era. I suspect he wasn't clean-shaven there out of choice. Edgy DC Aug 10 2009 08:10 AM And, in fairness to the Reds, all of baseball was pretty much facial-hair-free for about 50 years leading up to the Swinging A's era. Can anybody name the first mustachioed Met? John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 10 2009 08:24 AM Ken Boswell Benjamin Grimm Aug 10 2009 08:25 AM Felix Millan? Frayed Knot Aug 10 2009 08:33 AM ="Edgy DC":8wq591f4]And, in fairness to the Reds, all of baseball was pretty much facial-hair-free for about 50 years leading up to the Swinging A's era. [/quote:8wq591f4] Reds just kept that policy going much longer than other clubs. It was some mgr/exec from the Cincy org that switched over to StL at one point during Keith's time there who made him shave off his 'stache. Edgy DC Aug 10 2009 08:44 AM And to be honest, I kind of liked the policy. Yeah, it seems starkly retrograde, but I like anything that makes teams culturally different from one another, even if it's something I wouldn't like on my team. Maybe especially if it's something I wouldn't like on my team. dgwphotography Aug 10 2009 01:29 PM I remember seeing both Kranepool and Harrelson sporting mustaches... Farmer Ted Aug 11 2009 09:25 AM Bobby O last night said that Pelfry's form on a bunch of pitches looked lazy and he wasn't waiting for Santos to finish giving signs before he started his windup. In Pelfry's defense, the guy was just with his wife who gave birth. So, he's up for how long during that process? Then the Mets shove him onto a plan, across the freaking country, and pitch with his head obviously in a fog. Farmer Ted Aug 16 2009 01:08 PM Switched over to NESN in between innings to catch a Red Sox score. Frank Viola doing color and sounds pretty good. Any openings at SNY? Frayed Knot Aug 16 2009 01:20 PM ="Farmer Ted":jupihupn]Switched over to NESN in between innings to catch a Red Sox score. Frank Viola doing color and sounds pretty good. Any openings at SNY?[/quote:jupihupn] I've heard him before. He might rival Johnny Franco for the most identifiable Noo Yawk accent working in the media. G-Fafif Aug 16 2009 03:54 PM ="dgwphotography":2hba0iah]I remember seeing both Kranepool and Harrelson sporting mustaches...[/quote:2hba0iah] Been listening to the radio broadcast of Tom Seaver's final start before he was traded. One of things I learned, from Bob Murphy, was Dave Kingman just shaved his mustache because he realized (according to Murph) that he couldn't grow a good one.

="Swan Swan H":22do12er]Rooting for them this weekend. It's all or nothing - once you taste the blood your soul turns to dust.[/quote:22do12er] Damned if you do, Damn Yankees. It's those devilish paradoxes that define your worth as a fan. I am a Met fan because I can stomach rooting for the Yankees whenever it is in my rooting interest to do so. Benjamin Grimm May 24 2009 03:16 PM Gotta root against the Phillies. It's more important for the Mets to make the playoffs than it is for the Yankees to miss them. Zvon May 24 2009 03:38 PM I'm sure heads will explode by my saying this, but the Mets will never be able to even out the subway series if both teams do not appear in the World Series together again. Not saying I root for the Yankees in any way shape or form (unless they are playing teams that effect the Mets standings). Someday, though, I'd like to see that rematch. Benjamin Grimm May 24 2009 04:04 PM I'd rather see the Mets get their 27th World Championship before the Yankees win another. Since I'm 45 years old already, it would take quite a remarkable run for it to happen in my lifetime. Fman99 May 24 2009 08:43 PM The comet never hit so I lost. Elster88 May 27 2009 05:50 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":26v8p757]="Elster88":26v8p757]WTF? How many people want the Phillies to do well this series? I may have missed something but we're chasing them in the standings. I hope you guys are kidding around. After the Phillies sweep and the Mets lose the division by 1 game again it's going to be rough reading this thread. Too much Yankee-penis envy going on![/quote:26v8p757] Don't be such a pussy....[/quote:26v8p757] ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":26v8p757]I am hoping for 6-4, expecting 0-10 or worse.[/quote:26v8p757] Right. I'm the pussy. Elster88 May 27 2009 05:53 PM ="seawolf17":pmrjyr5e]="Elster88":pmrjyr5e]WTF? How many people want the Phillies to do well this series? I may have missed something but we're chasing them in the standings. I hope you guys are kidding around. After the Phillies sweep and the Mets lose the division by 1 game again it's going to be rough reading this thread. Too much Yankee-penis envy going on![/quote:pmrjyr5e] I hate it when I agree with Elster, but seriously.[/quote:pmrjyr5e] Where'd that come from? Not sure what we disagreed on recently. Or ever. Elster88 May 27 2009 06:04 PM ="Swan Swan H":3eiyck00]Rooting for them this weekend. It's all or nothing - once you taste the blood your soul turns to dust.[/quote:3eiyck00] I wasn't rooting for them. I was rooting against the Phillies. It's these subtle differences that keep the devil from stealing your soul. Swan Swan H May 27 2009 06:11 PM Two teams in every game. We looked at the same big picture, you preferred that the Yankees would win, and I didn't. Elster88 May 27 2009 06:13 PM Who are these Yankees you speak of? All I know is the Phillies were playing and I wanted them to lose so my team could take first place. seawolf17 May 27 2009 07:00 PM No offense, Elster. I seem to remember us having a row over something or other some time ago. Elster88 May 27 2009 07:03 PM None taken. It's entirely possible I just don't remember it.

Swan Swan H wrote: Interleague scenarios make my frontal lobe ache. Mets should win, Yankees should lose. Damn you, Bud Selig, for muddying such clear waters. I would've agreed with you up until a few hours ago. But I've been recently persuaded otherwise by some irrefutable and compelling logic and now realize that if we played the AL East all season long, we could really stick it to the Yankees by losing all of our games. ecept the ones against the Yankees. We'd be something like 25-137 but it'd be worth it.

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]How about when BatMags and Rogers danced on the dugout to Cotton Eye Joe? That was something to see. Who made me a Yankee fan?

Look on the bright side, Swannie: If the Sox hang on they remain in first place. We can stick it to the MFY's here by losing. (P.S. Did you know that your avatar comes up on a Throneberry Google image search?) http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&q=throneberry&sa=N&start=160&ndsp=20

Did I do something bad?

So who would you root for if today was the last day of the season? Signed The Sons of Sterling (Equities)

If the season ended yesterday, the Mets would be on the outside looking in, playoff-wise, by one half game --- an outcome that could have been altered to the Mets benefit had the Yankees beaten the Phillies on Friday. Would an extra Yankees loss be much consolation? And we do lose ground even though we match the Phillies, whether by winning or losing; the season is one day closer to the end and the Phillies magic number goes down by one even if they don't increase their games ahead lead over the Mets. They're running out the clock. Does anyone here think that Jerry Manuel is rooting for the Phillies this weekend? I don't. Jeez, maybe we should also be rooting for the Bosox this weekend --- them being the Yankees archrivals!

What do Dinosaurs and Chalked Batter's Box Lines have in common? Answer -- They don't exist, according to Carl Everett. Mets at Boston, July 15, 2000 -- The Carl Everett Meltdown Game. BASEBALL; Everett Crosses A Line With Ump By TYLER KEPNER Published: Sunday, July 16, 2000 ="New York Times"] To the Boston Red Sox, it looked suspicious. On Friday, their manager, Jimy Williams, had ordered the umpires to check the baseball for scuff marks when the Mets' Dennis Cook was pitching. Cook later threw a pitch that hit their star center fielder, Carl Everett, who is noted for crowding the plate. During Everett's first at-bat today, the home plate umpire Ronald Kulpa drew a line with his foot marking the inner edge of the batter's box. Everett was incensed, and he barked loudly at Kulpa, earning an ejection that touched off a tirade by Everett. Five minutes of histrionics followed Everett's ejection. He bumped Kulpa with his chest, slammed his helmet to the ground, then knocked his head into Kulpa's as he screamed in the umpire's face. Kulpa staggered back, and as the other umpires gathered around him, Everett's eruption continued. He shoved aside the first base coach Tommy Harper, who along with Williams was trying to restrain him. Everett pointed repeatedly at the inner edge of the batter's box, and he would not leave the home plate area. Mets right fielder Derek Bell, who grew up with Everett in Florida and was teammates with him in Houston, jogged in to try to calm Everett. Mets Manager Bobby Valentine -- who said he did not feel it was Bell's place to intervene -- intercepted Bell before he confronted Everett. ''If I got there sooner, I could have gotten him out of there,'' Bell said. ''They don't know him like I know him. I'm like a big brother to him.'' Everett was in no mood to listen. When he finally retreated to the dugout, he shouted at some teammates and tossed a water cooler. He has much more than an equipment fine coming his way: for bumping an umpire -- twice -- Everett will probably be reprimanded severely. ''We'll see what Frank Robinson has to say,'' Williams said, referring to baseball's vice president for on-field operations. ''We haven't lost our player yet. He's still eligible to play.'' Williams said the Mets had told the umpires to enforce the limits of the batter's box with Everett hitting. ''I know it came from the other side,'' he said. ''I don't even have to ask. I know it did. If you do that, why wait for the third game? It might have been retaliation.'' Valentine said, ''Jimy Williams is incorrect, out of bounds and ridiculous making statements that he has no clue about.'' Through a Red Sox spokesman, Everett had no comment; neither did Kulpa. But it is well known that any contact with an umpire is strictly off limits. ''When he was getting upset, I was out of there,'' Mets catcher Mike Piazza said. ''He was not in a good mood. I didn't want to get hit in the cross-fire. It was an unfortunate incident. Any time you bump an umpire, it's not good. You can't do that.'' Bobby Cox, manager of the Atlanta Braves, began serving a five-game suspension on Friday for bumping an umpire on July 4. Mets pitcher Mike Hampton was a teammate of Everett's for two years in Houston, and he said he never saw umpires challenge Everett on standing too close to the plate. But, like Valentine, Hampton said the Mets had nothing to do with today's incident. ''Nobody did -- it was the umpire taking it upon himself,'' Hampton said. ''It's his job. He felt he was standing on the line or out of the box, and he wanted to enforce the rule.''

="SteveJRogers"] Oh, bugger...that is not good news for my wallet. Nor for snooty vendors are card shows who don't like customers "leafing" through their precious products. Rogers ... .. A revised 2008 Mets yearbook is being auctioned off on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-METS-FINAL-SHEA-STADIUM-REVISED-YEARBOOK_W0QQitemZ160336752620QQihZ006QQcategoryZ43356QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem By the way, the revised 2008's are labeled "Final Shea Stadium Edition". This should make it easier to find another one, should this ebay auction not work out for you.

="Edgy DC":lcs9vupn]Well, you're avoiding the two questions you quote me asking, for starters.[/quote:lcs9vupn] What's the question? That I used circular reasoning (according to you)? At least you didn't jump straight ahead to the part where you're mortally wounded because of some opinion I hold. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 09 2009 09:27 PM ="Frayed Knot":1ol7vfix]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1ol7vfix]The Mavs are doing quite nicely with Kidd co-helming this year. Had they given up something else passable instead of Devin Harris, they 'win' the trade, hands-down.[/quote:1ol7vfix] IOW, had they made a different trade then the one they did it would have been more in their favor. Ummm, OK. My point was (and I'm not a hoops-head - the "correct me if I'm wrong" line was serious not just a figure of speech) that the Kidd trade was the same sort of youth for experience 'win now' maneuver as the Kazmir trade was and had a similar not good enough in the short run AND detrimental in the long run outcome that the beginning of the thread complained about. [/quote:1ol7vfix] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). It was very much a "win-now" deal, but not quite the same way as a prospects-for-star-player deal might be in baseball; moreso than in baseball-- where the game is structured around one-on-one confrontations and the players (counting stats and relatively minor stat noise from defense/home park aside) perform largely independent of context-- basketball personnel moves are made with heavy regard to style of play and how it meshes with the extant team concept (assuming there is one). Cuban seems to very much buy into the championship potential of his core-- Nowitzki, Howard, Terry-- and as such, seeks players who amplify their performance. (You can make a case for this as fools' errand or perfectly plausible fairly easily.) Even if fully blossomed, Harris was not going to lead this particular team anywhere anytime soon, and Cuban does seem very much committed to this particular team. Aged and limited though it may be, Kidd's skillset is that of a true point guard-- directing the offense, spearheading ball movement and off-the-ball movement by the other players-- and Harris isn't that guy (he's more of a combo guard, and gets virtually all of his assists on slash-and-kick play). I do largely agree with you about look-at-me ownerism (as I believe most Forum members would); there are some to whom that matters, and more than a few semi-reasonable Met-following folk I know have made decent arguments to me for a more media-savvy owner. Edgy DC May 10 2009 05:13 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 10 2009 05:25 AM ="batmagadanleadoff":2e78h988]="Edgy DC":2e78h988]Well, you're avoiding the two questions you quote me asking, for starters.[/quote:2e78h988] What's the question? That I used circular reasoning (according to you)? At least you didn't jump straight ahead to the part where you're mortally wounded because of some opinion I hold.[/quote:2e78h988] Thanks for making up shit. Again. Questions? You just quoted them. "Do you really want to get into this wealthiest team stuff? Do you really have any idea who produced the most broadcast revenue in 1982? I don't." Circular reasoning: "I thought that it was primarily Wilpon that once turned the Mets into an inconsequential franchise." "You did? What year did you start thinking that?" "After it happened."Now, you may enjoy the game of jerking people in circles and making up shit. I don't and I'm not interested in playing along. So how about letting up? The team is on a winning streak. Benjamin Grimm May 10 2009 05:21 AM I do sometimes detect the smell of salamanders around here. Anyway, speaking of Mets ownership, this letter appeared in the Daily News' "Voice of the People" this morning: ]Amazin' history Hobe Sound, Fla.: I commend Bill Gallo for his fine article on Mets of the past and thank him for including my mother, Mets founder Joan Whitney Payson ("Something's missing in the Citi," April 19). May the spirit of Shea Stadium stay alive at Citi Field. John Whitney Payson Edgy DC May 10 2009 05:26 AM I appreciate John's position, but he appeared to want little to do with the team and continuing his mother's legacy when she left him a cut of it. Frayed Knot May 10 2009 06:44 AM ]I do largely agree with you about look-at-me ownerism (as I believe most Forum members would); there are some to whom that matters, and more than a few semi-reasonable Met-following folk I know have made decent arguments to me for a more media-savvy owner. I have nothing against better media-savvy. It's just that when fans (and I realize this isn't your only objective) support moves - whether they're player, manager or front office related - and spout as their primary objective for doing so as, "it'll get us more backpage headlines" then they probably need to rethink their reasoning, or at least add to it. MFS62 May 10 2009 07:55 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Sorry for getting to the party late. Sometimes on a long thread, I look at the last page posts, then try to figure out when had been posted before. Then, if the thread seems interesting, I start at the beginning. This seemed like an interesting one, until I saw what I've bolded above. Memo to Leiteretc, don't throw my team under a bus, especially since it seems like your team has been looking for a true point guard since they drafted Dean Meminger to fill that role. You may now return to your discussion. Later Elster88 May 10 2009 09:16 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Many, many more? How many is that? Do you have percentages/ratios? Can you quote articles? Farmer Ted May 15 2009 10:23 AM If the Wilpons are going to take a beating for the Citi sponsorship "fiasco", spread the criticism south to Philly and Jeffrey Lurie. Lincoln Financial Group has received preliminary approval for a $2.5 billion injection from the Treasury Department's Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 11:26 AM ="Elster88"]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Many, many more? How many is that? Do you have percentages/ratios? Can you quote articles? Percentages/ratios as far as numbers of articles? For serious? Vescey, Chad Ford and a sea of TV color guys, to name a few. Point is, the trade was much more resoundly crapped on after the fact-- I think the server for Basketball-Opinions-Reference.com is down this week, so I'll have to get back to you on the numbers. I'll tell you this much-- Cuban's gone down several notches in my eyes after the Denver-Dallas series fiasco. Elster88 May 15 2009 11:15 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]="Elster88"]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Many, many more? How many is that? Do you have percentages/ratios? Can you quote articles? Percentages/ratios as far as numbers of articles? For serious? Vescey, Chad Ford and a sea of TV color guys, to name a few. Point is, the trade was much more resoundly crapped on after the fact-- I think the server for Basketball-Opinions-Reference.com is down this week, so I'll have to get back to you on the numbers. No need to get all pissy. My point was that, though you said a few liked it but many didn't, how can you really know? I'm not sure what that translates to in real numbers since, as you sarcastically pointed out, there's no website that keeps track of it. Seems you're going on anecdotal evidence more than anything. I've heard lots of people praise the trade. I thought it was a bad trade. Funny how I've heard people who once praised the trade are now saying that the Mavs are in trouble since they don't have a point guard that can penetrate and don't have a young point guard. Some real geniuses out there. ]I'll tell you this much-- Cuban's gone down several notches in my eyes after the Denver-Dallas series fiasco. Can't argue with that. He'd be a great owner if he'd just stay off the f-ing court. And if he didn't sit behind the bench. That's just creepy. Mex17 Jul 15 2009 05:14 AM Since the Halladay trade talk has started, I havebeen hearing a lot about the Mets barren farm system and how there is no help on the horizon nor anything to trade from the system. Technically that is Omar's fault, but the reason why am mentioning it in this old thread is because I have to wonder how exactly Omar is being held accountable for it. Seems to me that he is not, and that is an indication of bad ownership. Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 05:36 AM Technically, that is Omar's fault, if you believe it's true. It also needs to be weighed against how you value what that talent was given up for --- be it minor leaguers traded for Johan Santana or the draft pick they gave up signing Francisco rodriguez. Or, if you want to dig back futher, players given up for Delgado and LoDuca and picks given up for martinez and Beltran. Throw Church-Schneider/Milledge in there also. metirish Jul 15 2009 07:12 AM IIRC the Mets didn't have the players to get Santana either . Halladay will want an extension I suppose , he's signed through next season. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 07:21 AM Halladay 2003 is the last guy to throw 250 innings. I'll say that for him. I hope he stays where is and beats the Yankees six times a year. smg58 Jul 15 2009 07:39 AM If the system looks barren, it's because a lot of prospects (Murphy, Evans, Niese, Martinez) have already played at the top level. Maybe you could be critical of rushing them along or counting on them too much at this stage (none of them had even seen AAA until about this time a year ago), but I don't think it's fair to exclude those players and then say the system is thin. John Sickels, who knows more about the minors than any NY sportswriter does, said the Mets system was in the middle of the pack and improving. The guy to watch for in the system is Jennry Mejia. He's holding his own since the promotion to AA (3.74 ERA, 24 K's in 21 IP), and he doesn't turn 20 until October. seawolf17 Jul 15 2009 07:44 AM ="Edgy DC":tzmk4ok3]I hope he stays where is and beats the Yankees six times a year.[/quote:tzmk4ok3] Eff that. I hope he comes to the Mets and beats the Phillies six times a year. Who cares who beats the Yankees? Mex17 Jul 15 2009 07:53 AM ="Edgy DC"]Technically, that is Omar's fault, if you believe it's true. It also needs to be weighed against how you value what that talent was given up for --- be it minor leaguers traded for Johan Santana or the draft pick they gave up signing Francisco rodriguez. Or, if you want to dig back futher, players given up for Delgado and LoDuca and picks given up for martinez and Beltran. Throw Church-Schneider/Milledge in there also. Two things. . . 1) I understand that it may not be possible to be at the top of the pack farm system-wise when you are in "win now" mode, but that does not mean that you have to be at the bottom either. I don't subscribe to Baseball America but if anyone does can they please post where they have the Mets ranked right now (say what you will about the NY tabloids and their agendas but what BA says is another matter entirely). I would say that they can be in the top 3/5th of MLB even when taking into account trading prospects in blockbusters and losing draft picks on account of FA signings. If they are below the 60th percentile then I think that someone is not doing their job. 2) The Red Sox seem to have a top notch system in spite of winning two titles this decade and remaining as one of the top teams in the league. Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 07:54 AM I don't care about who beats the Yankees so much as who beats people for the Mets. I care that the Mets triumph on their own terms and with their own players. If he comes here, I'll support him. Until then, he's the enemy and I view him at best with a heap of suspicion only slightly tinged with a grudging respect. Frayed Knot Jul 15 2009 07:56 AM ="Mex17"]Since the Halladay trade talk has started, I havebeen hearing a lot about the Mets barren farm system and how there is no help on the horizon nor anything to trade from the system. The pre-season assessment on the Met system, by those who pay attention to this sort of thing, was around average or a bit below (17th overall by BA for instance). A far cry from "barren" despite what you may hear from the barons of talk radio whose level of expertise generally includes having a vague idea of where one or two of the Mets farm teams are located. ]Technically that is Omar's fault, but the reason why am mentioning it in this old thread is because I have to wonder how exactly Omar is being held accountable for it. He'll be accountable for it just like he's accountable for everything else in the player development system. It'll be part of his final grade if you will. But at the same time it's not like having a strong farm system should be an end unto itself. The goal is to have a good ML team, the farm system is merely one way to help that along. But there are also various ways to do that. So if that system is weaker at any particular moment because it's been tapped to provide players for the 2009 big league squad (Murphy, Niese, Parnell); or because others were sent away in order to fetch players from other orgs (Putz, Santana, Delgado, and virtually everyone else not named Reyes & Wright); or while still others were brought up to cover for injuries (Martinez, Evans) then the farm system is, in effect, doing its job. What would be really stupid would be having a strong farm system while the ML team rots on the vine, an idea that reminds me a bit of the time Frank Burns was adverse to giving out the 4077's supply of excess insulin to an aid station because then "we'd have nothing to inventory". smg58 Jul 15 2009 09:01 AM ="seawolf17":15pnzoax]="Edgy DC":15pnzoax]I hope he stays where is and beats the Yankees six times a year.[/quote:15pnzoax] Eff that. I hope he comes to the Mets and beats the Phillies six times a year. Who cares who beats the Yankees?[/quote:15pnzoax] I hope he beats the Phillies six times and the Yankees twice. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 09:42 AM ="smg58":2jjhq1hq]The guy to watch for in the system is Jennry Mejia. He's holding his own since the promotion to AA (3.74 ERA, 24 K's in 21 IP), and he doesn't turn 20 until October.[/quote:2jjhq1hq] And he'll be in Triple-A by then, and in the majors by mid-next year, and "flamed out" by September, and traded in October. Then he'll be an All-Star. [And the system also looks barren because its high-ceiling guys-- Martinez aside-- aren't the ones who've seen major-league time. (Compare Evans, Murphy and Niese to Alvarez, Bard, Buchholz, Jayson Heyward, Feliz, McCutchens, Buster Posey or any of the Giant pitchers.) Benjamin Grimm Jul 15 2009 09:47 AM Buster Posey? LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 09:58 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":2fume5nr]Buster Posey?[/quote:2fume5nr] Giants catching prospect with live arm (he pitched in college), great batting eye and stroke. Could probably be a good backup in the majors right now. Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 10:06 AM I doubt any of the OBGYN columinists who've declared barren-ness the last week or so know crap about the Giants' system. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 10:19 AM ="Edgy DC":2sv7tji6]I doubt any of the OBGYN columinists who've declared barren-ness the last week or so know crap about the Giants' system.[/quote:2sv7tji6] Hell, I doubt they know crap about the Giants beyond Lincecum (maybe). To those who actually do pay attention, though, the fact that we've got a bit of a Dannon system-- fruit on the bottom-- is a valid sticking point, and a big reason the system as a whole doesn't grade out higher. Frayed Knot Jul 15 2009 12:03 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]To those who actually do pay attention, though, the fact that we've got a bit of a Dannon system-- fruit on the bottom-- is a valid sticking point, and a big reason the system as a whole doesn't grade out higher. True, the best ones (aside from Martinez) in terms of high ceiling are generally further away. That's also a reason why some* hear the phrase; 'no one ready to step in now' and translate that into "barren" since for teams wanting a haul of ML-ready players in exchange for their Halladays or Hollidays there's not a match in the Met system. * Francesa, just to name one, has been dismissing Fartinez for about two years now based on the reasoning that; 'if he was any good he'd be here already' Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 12:09 PM Because there are so many 18-year-olds in the league. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 03:21 PM Thought someone would have mentioned this-- yipes: ]I never met him, never talked to him. We�d get the monthly statement. He was kind of like a mystery man. He�d turn down people. My brother said, �Can I get to invest with him?��he turned him down. I think that added to the mystique.� King mentions that the man who got King with Madoff, New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon, lost $700 million. �Freddie says he�s not angry,� King says, �he�s betrayed.� http://men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_9237&pageNum=12 So... we're not going to be buyers at the deadline, then? Mex17 Jul 24 2009 04:05 PM And now the new Bernazard things. . .with the reports that he probaby will not get the ax because he is "Jeff's guy". . .along with Phillips commenting on the "collegial atmosphere" and how it does not work for the team. I'm just gonna keep collecting my evidence in this thread I guess. Mex17 Jul 26 2009 07:02 AM http://www.nypost.com/seven/07262009/sports/mets/amazins_next_moves_will_be_more_of_same_181474.htm?page=0 metirish Jul 26 2009 07:57 AM Steve Phillips: The most trusted name in baseball. Nymr83 Jul 26 2009 08:22 AM Steve Phillips: The most trusted name in baseball Met-bashing. Mex17 Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM He may have a point regardless. Overly-lenient parents usually result in disobedient children. metirish Jul 26 2009 10:02 AM Steveo certainly had a fun time working there , at least until he was dragged into court. Mex17 Jul 26 2009 11:04 AM ="metirish":2bhds3vd]Steveo certainly had a fun time working there , at least until he was dragged into court.[/quote:2bhds3vd] With all due respect, you're still ducking the issue. Tabloid sensationalism and personal agenas from critics notwithstanding, there is too much smoke around this front office/ownership group to ignore the presense of a fire. Kong76 Jul 26 2009 11:15 AM It's largely your issue (here), people don't need to entertain it if they don't want to. Valadius Jul 26 2009 03:09 PM I'm just scared what happens when Daddy Wilpon is no longer around and Jeffy takes total control.

="Kong76"]bmags: I'm not sure what 1982 has to do with Wilpon. He was a five percent owner in 1982, probably scheming to figure out how to wrest majority control away from Nelson. Doubleday ran the operation. Cashen was the GM. And the Mets were one year away from laying the foundation that would eventually establish them as the best franchise, top to bottom, in all of MLB. I've got no complaints about 1982. In 1982, the Mets were cleaning their predecessor's mess, not their own mess <<< This is getting funny. You won't answer direct questions but you offer answers to questions no one in the thread asked. Classic. I thought that there was a comment in there about 1982: ="Edgy DC"]Come on. You made more sense when you were using circular reasoning. Do you really want to get into this wealthiest team stuff? Do you really have any idea who produced the most broadcast revenue in 1982? I don't. What am I avoiding? I'm not hot on Wilpon.

="Edgy DC":rvcaw5h0]You really want to cherry pick from 1991?[/quote:rvcaw5h0] That was one example. I'm not limited to 1991. Trust me. Edgy DC May 09 2009 08:27 PM So what? It's ridiculous. And we're far outside of the comparison to/contrast with Mark Cuban territory. Kong76 May 09 2009 08:28 PM bmags: I'm not sure what 1982 has to do with Wilpon. He was a five percent owner in 1982, probably scheming to figure out how to wrest majority control away from Nelson. Doubleday ran the operation. Cashen was the GM. And the Mets were one year away from laying the foundation that would eventually establish them as the best franchise, top to bottom, in all of MLB. I've got no complaints about 1982. In 1982, the Mets were cleaning their predecessor's mess, not their own mess <<< This is getting funny. You won't answer direct questions but you offer answers to questions no one in the thread asked. Classic. Kong76 May 09 2009 08:31 PM Got excited, forgot about Edge's b'cast revenue part ... uh, I think I'll go tuck myself in. batmagadanleadoff May 09 2009 08:34 PM ="Kong76"]bmags: I'm not sure what 1982 has to do with Wilpon. He was a five percent owner in 1982, probably scheming to figure out how to wrest majority control away from Nelson. Doubleday ran the operation. Cashen was the GM. And the Mets were one year away from laying the foundation that would eventually establish them as the best franchise, top to bottom, in all of MLB. I've got no complaints about 1982. In 1982, the Mets were cleaning their predecessor's mess, not their own mess <<< This is getting funny. You won't answer direct questions but you offer answers to questions no one in the thread asked. Classic. I thought that there was a comment in there about 1982: ="Edgy DC"]Come on. You made more sense when you were using circular reasoning. Do you really want to get into this wealthiest team stuff? Do you really have any idea who produced the most broadcast revenue in 1982? I don't. What am I avoiding? I'm not hot on Wilpon. Edgy DC May 09 2009 08:39 PM Well, you're avoiding the two questions you quote me asking, for starters. Edgy DC May 09 2009 08:41 PM And you're the one who brought up "major, minor, and middle," so 1982 doesn't come out of nowhere. batmagadanleadoff May 09 2009 08:42 PM ="Edgy DC":lcs9vupn]Well, you're avoiding the two questions you quote me asking, for starters.[/quote:lcs9vupn] What's the question? That I used circular reasoning (according to you)? At least you didn't jump straight ahead to the part where you're mortally wounded because of some opinion I hold. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 09 2009 09:27 PM ="Frayed Knot":1ol7vfix]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1ol7vfix]The Mavs are doing quite nicely with Kidd co-helming this year. Had they given up something else passable instead of Devin Harris, they 'win' the trade, hands-down.[/quote:1ol7vfix] IOW, had they made a different trade then the one they did it would have been more in their favor. Ummm, OK. My point was (and I'm not a hoops-head - the "correct me if I'm wrong" line was serious not just a figure of speech) that the Kidd trade was the same sort of youth for experience 'win now' maneuver as the Kazmir trade was and had a similar not good enough in the short run AND detrimental in the long run outcome that the beginning of the thread complained about. [/quote:1ol7vfix] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). It was very much a "win-now" deal, but not quite the same way as a prospects-for-star-player deal might be in baseball; moreso than in baseball-- where the game is structured around one-on-one confrontations and the players (counting stats and relatively minor stat noise from defense/home park aside) perform largely independent of context-- basketball personnel moves are made with heavy regard to style of play and how it meshes with the extant team concept (assuming there is one). Cuban seems to very much buy into the championship potential of his core-- Nowitzki, Howard, Terry-- and as such, seeks players who amplify their performance. (You can make a case for this as fools' errand or perfectly plausible fairly easily.) Even if fully blossomed, Harris was not going to lead this particular team anywhere anytime soon, and Cuban does seem very much committed to this particular team. Aged and limited though it may be, Kidd's skillset is that of a true point guard-- directing the offense, spearheading ball movement and off-the-ball movement by the other players-- and Harris isn't that guy (he's more of a combo guard, and gets virtually all of his assists on slash-and-kick play). I do largely agree with you about look-at-me ownerism (as I believe most Forum members would); there are some to whom that matters, and more than a few semi-reasonable Met-following folk I know have made decent arguments to me for a more media-savvy owner. Edgy DC May 10 2009 05:13 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 10 2009 05:25 AM ="batmagadanleadoff":2e78h988]="Edgy DC":2e78h988]Well, you're avoiding the two questions you quote me asking, for starters.[/quote:2e78h988] What's the question? That I used circular reasoning (according to you)? At least you didn't jump straight ahead to the part where you're mortally wounded because of some opinion I hold.[/quote:2e78h988] Thanks for making up shit. Again. Questions? You just quoted them. "Do you really want to get into this wealthiest team stuff? Do you really have any idea who produced the most broadcast revenue in 1982? I don't." Circular reasoning: "I thought that it was primarily Wilpon that once turned the Mets into an inconsequential franchise." "You did? What year did you start thinking that?" "After it happened."Now, you may enjoy the game of jerking people in circles and making up shit. I don't and I'm not interested in playing along. So how about letting up? The team is on a winning streak. Benjamin Grimm May 10 2009 05:21 AM I do sometimes detect the smell of salamanders around here. Anyway, speaking of Mets ownership, this letter appeared in the Daily News' "Voice of the People" this morning: ]Amazin' history Hobe Sound, Fla.: I commend Bill Gallo for his fine article on Mets of the past and thank him for including my mother, Mets founder Joan Whitney Payson ("Something's missing in the Citi," April 19). May the spirit of Shea Stadium stay alive at Citi Field. John Whitney Payson Edgy DC May 10 2009 05:26 AM I appreciate John's position, but he appeared to want little to do with the team and continuing his mother's legacy when she left him a cut of it. Frayed Knot May 10 2009 06:44 AM ]I do largely agree with you about look-at-me ownerism (as I believe most Forum members would); there are some to whom that matters, and more than a few semi-reasonable Met-following folk I know have made decent arguments to me for a more media-savvy owner. I have nothing against better media-savvy. It's just that when fans (and I realize this isn't your only objective) support moves - whether they're player, manager or front office related - and spout as their primary objective for doing so as, "it'll get us more backpage headlines" then they probably need to rethink their reasoning, or at least add to it. MFS62 May 10 2009 07:55 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Sorry for getting to the party late. Sometimes on a long thread, I look at the last page posts, then try to figure out when had been posted before. Then, if the thread seems interesting, I start at the beginning. This seemed like an interesting one, until I saw what I've bolded above. Memo to Leiteretc, don't throw my team under a bus, especially since it seems like your team has been looking for a true point guard since they drafted Dean Meminger to fill that role. You may now return to your discussion. Later Elster88 May 10 2009 09:16 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Many, many more? How many is that? Do you have percentages/ratios? Can you quote articles? Farmer Ted May 15 2009 10:23 AM If the Wilpons are going to take a beating for the Citi sponsorship "fiasco", spread the criticism south to Philly and Jeffrey Lurie. Lincoln Financial Group has received preliminary approval for a $2.5 billion injection from the Treasury Department's Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 15 2009 11:26 AM ="Elster88"]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Many, many more? How many is that? Do you have percentages/ratios? Can you quote articles? Percentages/ratios as far as numbers of articles? For serious? Vescey, Chad Ford and a sea of TV color guys, to name a few. Point is, the trade was much more resoundly crapped on after the fact-- I think the server for Basketball-Opinions-Reference.com is down this week, so I'll have to get back to you on the numbers. I'll tell you this much-- Cuban's gone down several notches in my eyes after the Denver-Dallas series fiasco. Elster88 May 15 2009 11:15 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]="Elster88"]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] Fair enough about my apparent if-heavy suggestion-- I just meant that the trade wasn't terrible in conception, as a few critics argued at the time it was made, and many, MANY more argued just after Devin Harris started putting up all-star numbers (something that is MUCH easier to do, by the way, on a crap team). Many, many more? How many is that? Do you have percentages/ratios? Can you quote articles? Percentages/ratios as far as numbers of articles? For serious? Vescey, Chad Ford and a sea of TV color guys, to name a few. Point is, the trade was much more resoundly crapped on after the fact-- I think the server for Basketball-Opinions-Reference.com is down this week, so I'll have to get back to you on the numbers. No need to get all pissy. My point was that, though you said a few liked it but many didn't, how can you really know? I'm not sure what that translates to in real numbers since, as you sarcastically pointed out, there's no website that keeps track of it. Seems you're going on anecdotal evidence more than anything. I've heard lots of people praise the trade. I thought it was a bad trade. Funny how I've heard people who once praised the trade are now saying that the Mavs are in trouble since they don't have a point guard that can penetrate and don't have a young point guard. Some real geniuses out there. ]I'll tell you this much-- Cuban's gone down several notches in my eyes after the Denver-Dallas series fiasco. Can't argue with that. He'd be a great owner if he'd just stay off the f-ing court. And if he didn't sit behind the bench. That's just creepy. Mex17 Jul 15 2009 05:14 AM Since the Halladay trade talk has started, I havebeen hearing a lot about the Mets barren farm system and how there is no help on the horizon nor anything to trade from the system. Technically that is Omar's fault, but the reason why am mentioning it in this old thread is because I have to wonder how exactly Omar is being held accountable for it. Seems to me that he is not, and that is an indication of bad ownership. Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 05:36 AM Technically, that is Omar's fault, if you believe it's true. It also needs to be weighed against how you value what that talent was given up for --- be it minor leaguers traded for Johan Santana or the draft pick they gave up signing Francisco rodriguez. Or, if you want to dig back futher, players given up for Delgado and LoDuca and picks given up for martinez and Beltran. Throw Church-Schneider/Milledge in there also. metirish Jul 15 2009 07:12 AM IIRC the Mets didn't have the players to get Santana either . Halladay will want an extension I suppose , he's signed through next season. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 07:21 AM Halladay 2003 is the last guy to throw 250 innings. I'll say that for him. I hope he stays where is and beats the Yankees six times a year. smg58 Jul 15 2009 07:39 AM If the system looks barren, it's because a lot of prospects (Murphy, Evans, Niese, Martinez) have already played at the top level. Maybe you could be critical of rushing them along or counting on them too much at this stage (none of them had even seen AAA until about this time a year ago), but I don't think it's fair to exclude those players and then say the system is thin. John Sickels, who knows more about the minors than any NY sportswriter does, said the Mets system was in the middle of the pack and improving. The guy to watch for in the system is Jennry Mejia. He's holding his own since the promotion to AA (3.74 ERA, 24 K's in 21 IP), and he doesn't turn 20 until October. seawolf17 Jul 15 2009 07:44 AM ="Edgy DC":tzmk4ok3]I hope he stays where is and beats the Yankees six times a year.[/quote:tzmk4ok3] Eff that. I hope he comes to the Mets and beats the Phillies six times a year. Who cares who beats the Yankees? Mex17 Jul 15 2009 07:53 AM ="Edgy DC"]Technically, that is Omar's fault, if you believe it's true. It also needs to be weighed against how you value what that talent was given up for --- be it minor leaguers traded for Johan Santana or the draft pick they gave up signing Francisco rodriguez. Or, if you want to dig back futher, players given up for Delgado and LoDuca and picks given up for martinez and Beltran. Throw Church-Schneider/Milledge in there also. Two things. . . 1) I understand that it may not be possible to be at the top of the pack farm system-wise when you are in "win now" mode, but that does not mean that you have to be at the bottom either. I don't subscribe to Baseball America but if anyone does can they please post where they have the Mets ranked right now (say what you will about the NY tabloids and their agendas but what BA says is another matter entirely). I would say that they can be in the top 3/5th of MLB even when taking into account trading prospects in blockbusters and losing draft picks on account of FA signings. If they are below the 60th percentile then I think that someone is not doing their job. 2) The Red Sox seem to have a top notch system in spite of winning two titles this decade and remaining as one of the top teams in the league. Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 07:54 AM I don't care about who beats the Yankees so much as who beats people for the Mets. I care that the Mets triumph on their own terms and with their own players. If he comes here, I'll support him. Until then, he's the enemy and I view him at best with a heap of suspicion only slightly tinged with a grudging respect. Frayed Knot Jul 15 2009 07:56 AM ="Mex17"]Since the Halladay trade talk has started, I havebeen hearing a lot about the Mets barren farm system and how there is no help on the horizon nor anything to trade from the system. The pre-season assessment on the Met system, by those who pay attention to this sort of thing, was around average or a bit below (17th overall by BA for instance). A far cry from "barren" despite what you may hear from the barons of talk radio whose level of expertise generally includes having a vague idea of where one or two of the Mets farm teams are located. ]Technically that is Omar's fault, but the reason why am mentioning it in this old thread is because I have to wonder how exactly Omar is being held accountable for it. He'll be accountable for it just like he's accountable for everything else in the player development system. It'll be part of his final grade if you will. But at the same time it's not like having a strong farm system should be an end unto itself. The goal is to have a good ML team, the farm system is merely one way to help that along. But there are also various ways to do that. So if that system is weaker at any particular moment because it's been tapped to provide players for the 2009 big league squad (Murphy, Niese, Parnell); or because others were sent away in order to fetch players from other orgs (Putz, Santana, Delgado, and virtually everyone else not named Reyes & Wright); or while still others were brought up to cover for injuries (Martinez, Evans) then the farm system is, in effect, doing its job. What would be really stupid would be having a strong farm system while the ML team rots on the vine, an idea that reminds me a bit of the time Frank Burns was adverse to giving out the 4077's supply of excess insulin to an aid station because then "we'd have nothing to inventory". smg58 Jul 15 2009 09:01 AM ="seawolf17":15pnzoax]="Edgy DC":15pnzoax]I hope he stays where is and beats the Yankees six times a year.[/quote:15pnzoax] Eff that. I hope he comes to the Mets and beats the Phillies six times a year. Who cares who beats the Yankees?[/quote:15pnzoax] I hope he beats the Phillies six times and the Yankees twice. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 09:42 AM ="smg58":2jjhq1hq]The guy to watch for in the system is Jennry Mejia. He's holding his own since the promotion to AA (3.74 ERA, 24 K's in 21 IP), and he doesn't turn 20 until October.[/quote:2jjhq1hq] And he'll be in Triple-A by then, and in the majors by mid-next year, and "flamed out" by September, and traded in October. Then he'll be an All-Star. [And the system also looks barren because its high-ceiling guys-- Martinez aside-- aren't the ones who've seen major-league time. (Compare Evans, Murphy and Niese to Alvarez, Bard, Buchholz, Jayson Heyward, Feliz, McCutchens, Buster Posey or any of the Giant pitchers.) Benjamin Grimm Jul 15 2009 09:47 AM Buster Posey? LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 09:58 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":2fume5nr]Buster Posey?[/quote:2fume5nr] Giants catching prospect with live arm (he pitched in college), great batting eye and stroke. Could probably be a good backup in the majors right now. Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 10:06 AM I doubt any of the OBGYN columinists who've declared barren-ness the last week or so know crap about the Giants' system. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 10:19 AM ="Edgy DC":2sv7tji6]I doubt any of the OBGYN columinists who've declared barren-ness the last week or so know crap about the Giants' system.[/quote:2sv7tji6] Hell, I doubt they know crap about the Giants beyond Lincecum (maybe). To those who actually do pay attention, though, the fact that we've got a bit of a Dannon system-- fruit on the bottom-- is a valid sticking point, and a big reason the system as a whole doesn't grade out higher. Frayed Knot Jul 15 2009 12:03 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]To those who actually do pay attention, though, the fact that we've got a bit of a Dannon system-- fruit on the bottom-- is a valid sticking point, and a big reason the system as a whole doesn't grade out higher. True, the best ones (aside from Martinez) in terms of high ceiling are generally further away. That's also a reason why some* hear the phrase; 'no one ready to step in now' and translate that into "barren" since for teams wanting a haul of ML-ready players in exchange for their Halladays or Hollidays there's not a match in the Met system. * Francesa, just to name one, has been dismissing Fartinez for about two years now based on the reasoning that; 'if he was any good he'd be here already' Edgy DC Jul 15 2009 12:09 PM Because there are so many 18-year-olds in the league. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 15 2009 03:21 PM Thought someone would have mentioned this-- yipes: ]I never met him, never talked to him. We�d get the monthly statement. He was kind of like a mystery man. He�d turn down people. My brother said, �Can I get to invest with him?��he turned him down. I think that added to the mystique.� King mentions that the man who got King with Madoff, New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon, lost $700 million. �Freddie says he�s not angry,� King says, �he�s betrayed.� http://men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_9237&pageNum=12 So... we're not going to be buyers at the deadline, then? Mex17 Jul 24 2009 04:05 PM And now the new Bernazard things. . .with the reports that he probaby will not get the ax because he is "Jeff's guy". . .along with Phillips commenting on the "collegial atmosphere" and how it does not work for the team. I'm just gonna keep collecting my evidence in this thread I guess. Mex17 Jul 26 2009 07:02 AM http://www.nypost.com/seven/07262009/sports/mets/amazins_next_moves_will_be_more_of_same_181474.htm?page=0 metirish Jul 26 2009 07:57 AM Steve Phillips: The most trusted name in baseball. Nymr83 Jul 26 2009 08:22 AM Steve Phillips: The most trusted name in baseball Met-bashing. Mex17 Jul 26 2009 08:50 AM He may have a point regardless. Overly-lenient parents usually result in disobedient children. metirish Jul 26 2009 10:02 AM Steveo certainly had a fun time working there , at least until he was dragged into court. Mex17 Jul 26 2009 11:04 AM ="metirish":2bhds3vd]Steveo certainly had a fun time working there , at least until he was dragged into court.[/quote:2bhds3vd] With all due respect, you're still ducking the issue. Tabloid sensationalism and personal agenas from critics notwithstanding, there is too much smoke around this front office/ownership group to ignore the presense of a fire. Kong76 Jul 26 2009 11:15 AM It's largely your issue (here), people don't need to entertain it if they don't want to. Valadius Jul 26 2009 03:09 PM I'm just scared what happens when Daddy Wilpon is no longer around and Jeffy takes total control.

I'm not sure what 1982 has to do with Wilpon. He was a five percent owner in 1982, probably scheming to figure out how to wrest majority control away from Nelson. Doubleday ran the operation. Cashen was the GM. And the Mets were one year away from laying the foundation that would eventually establish them as the best franchise, top to bottom, in all of MLB. I've got no complaints about 1982. In 1982, the Mets were cleaning their predecessor's mess, not their own mess.