Benjamin Grimm

It's relevant because you said (in a post that's still in the original thread) "I hate trades period." That implied, to me, that you hated every trade, without exception.

I'm with Namor on this one. Sure it sucks for a minor leaguer to have to suddenly move from Peoria to Idaho Falls, but he's paying his dues for the potential, however slim it may be, to get those big pay checks and to be part of the big league lifestyle. And also, there are plenty of guys who are happy to be traded.

Oh... I thought it was because of an attachment to the departing players.

I don't understand the blanket hatred of trades. Did you not like getting Santana? Keith Hernandez?

Do we still need KTE's, or is it sufficient to say that they're the team that will score runs, while the Mets are the team that won't?

Unless we're in the clubhouse, we don't know who's a leader and who isn't, and we have to take the word of those who do go into the clubhouse. (For the most part. Sometimes, as with Keith Hernandez, you can see that leadership on the field.) And speaking of Keith, I think he has the track record to know who's a leader and who isn't. I trust his judgment in this area.

="metirish":3bjnsn0o]="Edgy DC":3bjnsn0o]Few GMs get fired mid-season, so I think, under any circumstances, he'll have enough time for the returning vets to make a cse for him or not.[/quote:3bjnsn0o] Agree totally with that , I think Minaya has a few plays left anyway.[/quote:3bjnsn0o] I agree too. I'll wait until October 1 to fire him, and I'll give him the next three months to try to change my mind. Steve Phillips got fired mid-season, though. Offhand, I can't think of any others. Gwreck Jul 07 2009 11:49 AM I'd also suggest Green and Stokes (full year) have been better than the Heilman/Sanchez combo of last year. Edgy DC Jul 07 2009 11:55 AM Stokes has rarely had similar responsibilities, however. Gwreck Jul 07 2009 11:57 AM Yeah, I guess it's really Green + Parnell vs. Heilman + Sanchez. I think the '09 version is still better. Edgy DC Jul 07 2009 11:58 AM What about counting Putzie in there? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 07 2009 12:05 PM Well, I was saying year-to-date. Rodriguez has been better than Wagner (who isn't) but it's not so dramatic -- performance differences between top closers rarely are. Green, numbers-wise has been worse than Heilman thru the same date -- again though not by much. Add Parnell to the mix and it pretty much washes out. I was also wrong on Feliciano, the numbers suggest -- he was actually very similar too. In sum, it pretty much looks the same with a better top closer. Frayed Knot Jul 07 2009 12:13 PM I'd venture that - if we're just talking Y-T-D - that the closers have been very similar. Wagner was near perfect for the first 1/3 or so of 2008, shakey for the middle 1/3 (injury-related or not - who knows?), before becoming non-existent for the final 1/3 So far Frankie has followed a similar path of: perfect ... then not so much, although his fall probably a bit less dramatic than that of Wags. Of course that means that he could be only mediocre Frankie from here on out and still easily out-do what we got from the final pen spot in 2008. The rest of the pen kind of has similar low-hanging fruit to swat the rest of the way as the 2008 pen wasn't merely bad, it was historical bad. dgwphotography Jul 07 2009 12:30 PM This reminds me of July of 1973, when people were looking to fire someone from an injury-riddled team. Just sayin' bmfc1 Jul 07 2009 01:46 PM Omar has failed to make in-season improvements to help the team, both this season and last. He should have made a move a month ago but did not. (I know that we don't know what he tried to do, if anything.) He also didn't make any moves last year. He is great at spending money and luring FAs but weak at trading while the season in on-going. For the Mets, when healthy, not to win something, even the wild card, with the money they are spending and the stars they have is absurd and Omar should be taking the blame. Edgy DC Jul 07 2009 01:55 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 07 2009 01:59 PM ]For the Mets, when healthy, not to win something, even the wild card, with the money they are spending and the stars they have is absurd and Omar should be taking the blame. Well, they're not healthy. And unfortunately a lot of the money is going to guys who aren't healthy. I hate trades period, buty I'm going to specifically again come out against making in-season trades to save a season during a lull as a measure of a GM. Cool heads and a community mindset get you through a crisis better. Remember George Bailey. bmfc1 Jul 07 2009 01:59 PM They were healthy last year. They were healthy the year before. It's not like Omar has a track record for making great in-season moves. The time to do something was a month ago, when they were in LA and Murphy was crapping around in LF and Reed was crapping around at 1B. Now, it may be too late. I hope not. Centerfield Jul 07 2009 02:35 PM ="dgwphotography":1ldnbplq]This reminds me of July of 1973, when people were looking to fire someone from an injury-riddled team. Just sayin'[/quote:1ldnbplq] You hear that Jerry? Hold back Johan for Game 7. Only a fool would trot him out there on 3 days rest for Game 6. Dumbass. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2009 10:36 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2009 12:47 AM It's not moves or lack of moves but the general mindset-- when roster building, you try and address potential problems preemptively, not post hoc. From 2006-07 (replace brittle, offensive-inclined LF with same and trade live arms for marginal SP candidates; ignore actual pitching upgrades, potential holes at 2B, other corner OF) to 2007-08 (get Santana; ignore brittle LF/depth issues/bullpen holes) to 2008-09 (fix bullpen/fill SP holes with plethora of "#5s"; assuming return to form by Castillo, ignores 2B and corner OF offensive deficiencies), Minaya seems caught in a loop wherein he spends each offseason addressing the biggest problems of last year, while apparently neglecting to consider potential problem areas that have existed since 2005-2006 (insufficient offensive depth to weather injuries to 1-2 members of the "core," e.g.). Whether this rearview-mirror approach to problem-solving is a function of his own thinking or how he relates to his employers is almost immaterial at this point; after three years, it's clear that's how he does business as the nominal head of baseball operations. As the head of the Mets, he's got resources with which to work-- money-wise, it's the second- or third-largest purse in the majors. With a little more foresight, this team could be nigh-unstoppable; instead, it's crumbling to pieces, in the prime years of its ultravaluable core. With his gifts for relationship-building, trade negotiations and player relations, he seems to make a fantastic assistant GM; it's become increasingly clear that he seems to lack the organizational "vision thing" required to be a superlative GM and run a consistently improving organization. OlerudOwned Jul 07 2009 11:15 PM He gave Luis Castillo a 4 year extension, which says a lot about his foresight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 12:50 AM Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html metirish Jul 13 2009 09:07 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":395f8x5x]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:395f8x5x] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 09:40 AM ="metirish":1bzocfjg]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1bzocfjg]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:1bzocfjg] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too.[/quote:1bzocfjg] Considering that he spends the previous 16 column inches trashing the judgement of virtually all "Mets insiders" in decision-making roles, I think Rubin's pretty clearly making an implicit argument there. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:31 AM ]What Minaya almost undoubtedly seems to have done-- if you don't take the cynical view that this was a trade-for-trade's-sake situation-- is that he's made a scout's-mindset trade. One could also argue that some of his worst acquisitions-- Perez, e.g.-- seem to occur when he lets this mindset predominate. Sorry about quoting myself, but I posted this in the "Church-Francoeur" semantics debate, and it kinda got lost in the shuffle. I've seen this echoed in a few places this morning-- that Rubin piece from yesterday being one-- and wondered what the heads here thought. I also wonder whether Minaya's made a basic mistake of a first-time or otherwise inexperienced manager-- surrounding himself with folk with whom he has history/who are "on board" with what he's doing, rather than folk whose skills and talents complement his own (i.e., stat analysis folk who can offer counterpoint when discussing player evaluations). Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:41 AM Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez-Hernandez-for-Nady trade is probably on the negative side of the ledger, but I don't think it's close to the worst. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 11:43 AM I don't get the impression it's all very complicated with Omar. He swapped one flawed asset for another and perhaps in his estimation, a RH-hitting flawed guy was better than LH hitting flawed guy. I think he also believes in the value of new scenery. As has been remarked elsewhere, Church and Francoeur both could be nontendered this offseason, so what;s so bad about a 3-month gamble. Finally I think when in doubt Omar errs toward "talent" -- "show me talent and I'll show you on-base percentage" as he says. And he certainly believes Francoeur has "talent." Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:50 AM Edgy DC likes this. metirish Jul 13 2009 11:51 AM " something needed to be done" is what I have been hearing and reading in various forms since the trade. I may even have uttered it myself. Ron Darling has said it three times that I heard , as have a few other talking heads on SNY. I think Cohen took that view too. Not a way I want the team I support to be run but at least he didn't wake up and trade away a Grade A prospect for a middle of the road talent. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:59 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Should've been clearer-- the Perez trade was a decent move (in conception, at least) to fill both an immediate need and a looming one. The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) And I think the exact wrong time to make a move is when "we have to make a move." Desperation is a stinky cologne. Frayed Knot Jul 13 2009 02:08 PM ]The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) In fairness to the Ollie signing -- which certainly looks like shit at the moment seeing as how he's missed over half of this half-season -- I'd take what he gave us for the last two complete seasons: 63 starts; 371 IP; 320 Hits; 354 Ks; ~3.90 ERA; ~1.35 WHiP and had no problem thinking that he could more or less continue along those lines for 3 more at his age. You wanna haggle about the price go ahead but I'm not sure he could have been had for much less. As for Lowe he's certainly doing OK in 2009 (although a higher ERA & WHiP than the Ollie stats above) but neither he nor Ollie was going to be a one-year commitment (in which case I would have preferred Lowe too) and are we really going to now get on Omar's case for NOT signing a 36 y/o pitcher to a long-term contract? I think I've brought this up before but Lowe was older, more expensive, a longer commitment, and not as good a track record as compared to Glavine at the time of his NYM signing. Yet we all seem to know now that TG was a mistake all along while DL was the way to go. Sheets, meanwhile, isn't pitching because he physically can't pitch and it seems uncertain as to when he'll ever pitch again. Maybe he's great next year but Sheets has had a lot of maybes in his career and too many maybes haven't worked out in Queens lately. And, of course, signing none of the above would have just pushed the Livan/Niese/Nieve/Redding alternatives to the 5th, 4th, 3rd slot that much quicker and for that much longer. Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 02:19 PM Not that it matters now, but I was hoping at the time that Randy Wolf would get some consideration. He would have been cheaper than Perez and better than Redding. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 02:29 PM Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks. G-Fafif Jul 13 2009 02:37 PM If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 02:59 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 14 2009 12:47 PM Derek Lowe's up by 5 o'clock Derek Lowe's givin' it all he got Derek Lowe's job is six to nine but Derek Lowe's home by nine O five Derek Lowe helps to cook the steak Derek Lowe helps to wash the plates Derek Lowe puts the kids to bed Derek Lowe reads a book to them (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves Atlanta so Derek Lowe loves to wind and throw Derek Lowe's pitch has great command But Derek Lowe don't make no demands Derek Lowe's always back in time Derek Lowe's not the injured kind Derek Lowe's full of compliment Derek Lowe's such a gentleman (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Cause I'm free Free of any control pitcher qualities Thank God I'm free Cos it's hard enough for me To take care of me, oh-oh Derek Lowe's carryin' a heavy load but Derek Lowe never really ever moans Derek Lowe's such a healthy guy But Derek Lowe let's the others try Derek Lowe's got ideas and plans Derek Lowe's what you call a real man Derek Lowe always will provide 'Cuz Derek Lowe is the family type (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) 'Cause I'm free Free as an ex-Pirate pitching now in NYC Thank God I'm free Driftin' all around just like a tumbleweed, oh-oh Maybe I need a coach Someone who won't reproach Maybe an older fan base Will tolerate me Maybe that organization A kinder Metly nation Maybe the perfect situation To satisfy me Derek Lowe keeps his body clean Derek Lowe don't use nicotine Derek Lowe don't drink alcohol Derek Lowe use no drugs at all Derek Lowe don't eat any sweet Derek Lowe don't eat piggie's feet Derek Lowe's frame is mighty strong Derek Lowe make love hard and long (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves the ladies so Derek Lowe walks 'em to the sto' Derek Lowe likes to hold their hands Derek Lowe's proud to understand Derek Lowe stands for decency Derek Lowe means formality Derek Lowe's the epitome Derek Lowe stands for quality Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:16 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":303i3b2c]Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.[/quote:303i3b2c] That's because ALL the metrics tell you Francoeur sucks. (Offensive WAR-related metrics ARE a bit more foolproof than pitching... and EVERYTHING'S a lot more reliable than even the best stabs at defensive measurement... at least until that crazy new robot defense metric happens. Funny thing, though, innit-- even among statheads, offense comes first.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:18 PM ="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem. Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp]="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

Well, it's not like he was overly impressive prior to this past off-season. I'm not looking to "punish" him for any specific mistake he's made (and he's made a few) but I want a GM who's smarter than the average bear. And Omar's not that guy. So rather than let him continue to preside over the team's deterioration for the next three years, I'd prefer to see someone come in who can turn things around. Omar's not getting it done, and I don't think he's capable of getting it done.

I realized that after I clicked "Submit" I still think it's a good idea. They should just try it again.

I don't know if it would require a clause to permit it, or a clause to prohibit it. If possible, it would make more sense to demote him than to fire him, only because you'd have the chance to get off the hook for the remaining money in the event that someone else seeks to hire him.

Wait, does that mean he makes $4 million per year? Or $800,000? If it's $800,000 that's a relatively piddling amount. (I'd love to make that kind of piddle, of course...) The three-year contract shouldn't prevent them from firing him. Hire a smart guy; someone who's been able to build a competitive team in a small market. Bring that kind of savvy to New York, and I think you'll really have something.

Me, I'm on board with firing Omar. How much is he slated to make over the next three years? And would the Mets have the option of reassigning him to other duties?

Could the reason have something to do with tighter PED testing?

Okay, I'm ready sooner than I thought I would be. We have five games closing tomorrow: Schaefer POTG 7/1/09 - Mets 1, Brewers 0Schaefer POTG 7/2/09 - Mets 9, Pirates 8Schaefer POTG 7/3/09 - Phillies 7, Mets 2Schaefer POTG 7/4/09 - Phillies 4, Mets 1Schaefer POTG 7/5/09 - Phillies 2, Mets 0 If you still have votes to cast for any of these games, please try to do so today.

Santana 4.5 Parnell 1 Castillo 0.75

Nieve 1 Stokes 0.5 Feliciano 0.5 Cora 1.25

I wonder how many farm systems are just brimming with hot prospects. And how many of the current stars in the game were considered top prospects when they were in Single A or Double A?

Misch 3 Church 2 Evans 1 Schneider 1

Santana feels free to speak more candidly to the Venezuelan press, doesn't he?

I agree that A- is a little high for Cora, unless we're grading on the curve. He has been asked to fill a role that's beyond his ability, and he's been okay at it, not to mention playing hurt because the team needs him. Church has been quietly solid. One of the team's top players in June, although that may qualify as faint praise. Murphy? Ugh! It's too early, perhaps, to give up on him, but he's also shown that he can't be counted on. The Mets have to go 1B shopping this winter.

Yikes... eighth place in the Wild Card race? Just a few weeks ago they were in first or second. Things look pretty grim, but not so bad that a sustained hot streak wouldn't cure. But is this team capable of a sustained hot streak? Sure doesn't look like it.

And the opposing starting pitchers were (at least in the first two games) guys we could have reasonably expected to suck.

That's because they're averaging zero runs per game.

I'm going to fall a little behind on the tallying, since I have some box score fixing to do on the UMDB. I'll probably get us caught up later in the week, but feel free to keep voting on any games from the month of July. Also, I'll be disappearing for two weeks shortly after the All-Star break, but all will be caught up not too long after I return in early August.