Steven Matz

[Ceetar]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: I feel bad for Matz, and if he felt like the team had this "rub some dirt on it, don't be a pussy" view of him, then yah, he's gonna try to pitch through it (and look like crap doing it). I mean, if the dude can't throw a ball without pain in the 4 days since his last start, why in the world would anyone think he'd feel good on the 5th day? Shut him down and keep digging for the cause.

Because
A. He didn't feel like the team had that view of him. He and the Mets were on the same page.
and
B. He COULD throw the ball without pain. It was just between starts he was having issues.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Ceetar wrote: A Boy Named Seo wrote: I feel bad for Matz, and if he felt like the team had this "rub some dirt on it, don't be a pussy" view of him, then yah, he's gonna try to pitch through it (and look like crap doing it). I mean, if the dude can't throw a ball without pain in the 4 days since his last start, why in the world would anyone think he'd feel good on the 5th day? Shut him down and keep digging for the cause. Because A. He didn't feel like the team had that view of him. He and the Mets were on the same page. and B. He COULD throw the ball without pain. It was just between starts he was having issues.

So he had "elbow discomfort all season" except the days he pitched baseballs in games?

And that article seems to disagree with your first point.

"I figured that any little aches and pains I had were just lingering from the offseason," Matz said. "I was just going to push through it and hope it goes away." ... A pitcher tagged as soft with a lengthy injury history, Matz was determined to pitch through his problems.

That doesn't sound like the Mets and Matz being on the same page, unless you mean both sides pushing for "ignore the pain, keep pitching".

[Ceetar]

The articles state he had inflammation between starts.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/steven-matz-headed-dl-undisclosed-injury-article-1.3430131

Matz said he had no issue with the way the Mets handled his injury.

http://www.newsday.com/beta/sports/baseball/mets/steven-matz-may-need-elbow-surgery-source-says-1.14080944

According to a source, Matz consented to multiple pain-killing injections, occasionally on game days, to quell the pain that came along with an elbow that at times swelled to the size of a grapefruit. The pain came and went, though the elbow bothered him mostly between starts.

It wasn’t like I couldn’t throw. I was still able to throw, so it’s kind of a tough call.

[Ceetar]

Also the diagnosis:

Local anesthetic nerve blocks are sterile procedures that are usually performed in an outpatient facility or hospital. The procedure can be performed with the help of ultrasound, fluoroscopy (a live X-ray), or CT to guide the physician in the placement of the needle. A probe positioning system can be used to hold the ultrasound transducer steady. Electrical stimulation can provide feedback on the proximity of the needle to the target nerve.

That doesn't exactly seem like something you just do on a whim. "Well, maybe it's this? let's try numbing the nerve!" I mean, that would've likely mandated another DL stint and both sides opted to try to pitch.

And Terry's quotes are correct. He very well could've taken the ball as normal.

[Zvon]

I think you can stick a fork in Matz. He's done.

[Centerfield]

The articles state he had inflammation between starts. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/steven-matz-headed-dl-undisclosed-injury-article-1.3430131 Matz said he had no issue with the way the Mets handled his injury. http://www.newsday.com/beta/sports/baseball/mets/steven-matz-may-need-elbow-surgery-source-says-1.14080944 According to a source, Matz consented to multiple pain-killing injections, occasionally on game days, to quell the pain that came along with an elbow that at times swelled to the size of a grapefruit. The pain came and went, though the elbow bothered him mostly between starts. It wasn’t like I couldn’t throw. I was still able to throw, so it’s kind of a tough call.

It's crazy. I feel like you go into a subject with a preconception, read whatever is presented to you, then come out with the same conclusion regardless of the news might say.

It's pretty clear. Matz pitched through pain all year. It affected him during, and between starts, to varying degrees of severity. Instead of persisting until they found an answer, they told him to grit his teeth and fight through it.

In the end, he was hurt. In the same exact way deGrom was hurt.

It's foolish.

Anyway, surgery was a success. Let's hope he has the same results as deGrom.

[Centerfield]

By the way, I nominate Steven Matz for the Mr. "Best Shape of My Life" Spring Training 2018.

"This year I feel totally different. I'm pain free for the first time in years."

[Edgy MD]

Dude really needs to grow his hair during rehab. He's been looking way too respectable.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: It's crazy. I feel like you go into a subject with a preconception, read whatever is presented to you, then come out with the same conclusion regardless of the news might say.

I go into everything looking for facts. My spidey-sense goes up when I hear LOLMets style coverage that doesn't fit the facts or contradicts itself.

It's pretty clear. Matz pitched through pain all year. It affected him during, and between starts, to varying degrees of severity. Instead of persisting until they found an answer, they told him to grit his teeth and fight through it.

It's clear he pitched through pain, at various times. To varying degrees of success too. You can argue they should've shut him down and run every test imaginable until they got a conclusive answer, but you can't argue that that's the ONLY way to handle it, nor even that Matz would've consented to it. He didn't have the same symptoms as deGrom, so besides the idea that "hey, here is a thing that happens to a small subset of pitchers" there wasn't necessarily an obvious medical reason to go to the hospital to have an ultrasound-guided needle shoved into his arm to inject a numbing agent into a nerve.

They DIDN'T tell him to grit his teeth and pitch through it. One singular person, somewhere in the organization, said that the topic of learning to pitch with pain could be something that Matz needs to figure out. There is no indication that they said this to Matz. That they said this to Warthen or Collins. That it's even someone with more authority than the intern getting the GM coffee. And in truth, it's a reasonable thought to a clean MRI post-surgery, if one that should ultimately be dismissed when the pain doesn't get better/change after a few starts.

In the end, he was hurt. In the same exact way deGrom was hurt. It's foolish. Anyway, surgery was a success. Let's hope he has the same results as deGrom.

I mean, clearly there should've just queried the diagnostic computer inside Matz's elbow and asked it what error it was showing. I'm not sure it's actually foolish to pitch a guy who DOESN'T have any elbow damage and is still throwing fine and is responding to pain meds and even had a stretch of success with that protocol.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think what's lost in the translation in these stories is a true understanding for the degree to which all athletes deal with pain from day to day and how much or how little that differs between guys who require surgery and guys who don't. Bob Ojeda wrote a whole story in the Times that said his arm hurt every day for his entire career.