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IGT 7/17/16: NYM@PHI -- We're Rubber, They're Glue

G-Fafif

By G-Fafif
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Guest d'Kong76

Guest d'Kong76

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I didn't see much either, but I had the fun of telling my buddy's daughter's
boyfriend in a Phillie cap the Yahoo phone updates.


batmagadanleadoff College Ball

batmagadanleadoff

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Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I love complete game shutouts. I wish they weren't as rare as they are, but that's probably what makes them special.

The Mets have never had a season in which they didn't have at least one CG/ShO, but they only had one in each of the last two years. (Zack Wheeler in 2014 and Bartolo Colon in 2015.)

http://leaptoad.com/mets/yrleaders.php?cattype=p#sho


Wow! Seaver didn't throw a CG/SHO until 1971, his 5th season.

Also, the Mets never had a season in which four different pitchers threw CG/SHO's.


Zvon Prep Ball

Zvon

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batmagadanleadoff wrote:
I love complete game shutouts. I wish they weren't as rare as they are, but that's probably what makes them special.

The Mets have never had a season in which they didn't have at least one CG/ShO, but they only had one in each of the last two years. (Zack Wheeler in 2014 and Bartolo Colon in 2015.)

http://leaptoad.com/mets/yrleaders.php?cattype=p#sho


Wow! Seaver didn't throw a CG/SHO until 1971, his 5th season.

Also, the Mets never had a season in which four different pitchers threw CG/SHO's.


Wow. I would have thought he had a few under his belt by then. What about the almost no-no vs. the Cubs in '69?


Benjamin Grimm FCL Mets

Benjamin Grimm

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He didn't lead the team in shutouts until 1971. But he had 2 in 1967, 5 in 1968, 5 in 1969, and 2 in 1970.

That page doesn't list all shutouts. It lists who led the team in each season.


batmagadanleadoff College Ball

batmagadanleadoff

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Benjamin Grimm wrote:
He didn't lead the team in shutouts until 1971. But he had 2 in 1967, 5 in 1968, 5 in 1969, and 2 in 1970.

That page doesn't list all shutouts. It lists who led the team in each season.


Yeah. I just figgered that out as you were probably explaining to me. Thanks.


Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket

Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket

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WE were at the game thanks to Wifey Buckets' folks. Easily as many Mets fans as Phillies fans. Seats in the sun in LF, brutal.

Had a good feeling deGrom would be good, only a matter of whether we'd score a few.

Free Phanantic beach towel!

Took Lunchpail over to see Bull's BBQ and explained who Luzinski was: "Big fat guy, awful outfeilder, hit a lot of home runs." Realized moments later he was sitting right next to me when I said that but I'm sure he heard worse.


Edgy MD FCL Mets

Edgy MD

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Best description of Greg Luzinski: "Such a bad outfielder that Lonnie Smith was used as his defensive replacement."

And they won the World Series that way!


Edgy MD FCL Mets

Edgy MD

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Cool stats from ESPN.com:

    [*:1yibimhd]Most games allowing zero runs by a starting pitcher in first 68 starts:
    1. Jose Fernandez: 18
    T2. Jacob deGrom: 16
    T2. Dwight Gooden: 16 (@NYMStats)

    [/*:m:1yibimhd]
    [*:1yibimhd] deGrom had a game score of 97, tied for the fifth highest game score in franchise history. (@NYMStats)

    [/*:m:1yibimhd]
    [*:1yibimhd]Jacob deGrom�s 97 game score ties him for the second-best nine-inning game in Mets history. Only Cone�s 19-strikeout game was higher (99). (@AmazinAvenue)

    [/*:m:1yibimhd]
    [*:1yibimhd]Jacob deGrom becomes the first Met to pitch a complete game and allow one hit or fewer since R.A. Dickey on June 18, 2012. (@NYMStats)

    [/*:m:1yibimhd]
    [*:1yibimhd]Jacob deGrom: 3rd Mets pitcher to throw a 1-hit shutout in Philadelphia, joining Tom Seaver (1970) and Terry Leach (1982- 10 innings) (@ESPNStatsInfo)[/*:m:1yibimhd][/list:o:1yibimhd]

    Tough luck to have a one-hitter where the pitcher gets the only hit. deGrom had half a chance of snaring it, too.


Edgy MD FCL Mets

Edgy MD

Site Manager
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To look at this objectively, however, I hesitate to place this so high.

I didn't know there were multiple ways to calculate Game Scores, but Baseball-Reference gives him a 91 and not a 97. I'm not sure how or why his 9-inning/0-run/1-hit/1-walk/7-strikeout performance should outrank Tom Seaver's 9-inning/0-run/1-hit/0-walk/11-strikeout performance of July 9, 1969, for instance.


Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket

Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket

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I don't know shit about Game Scores neither. Could they be era-adjusted?


dinosaur jesus Prep Ball

dinosaur jesus

Old-Timey Member
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Baseball Reference uses Bill James's original game score calculation. There's a modified formula used by FanGraphs and mlb.com. DeGrom's game score was 91 by the first formula, 97 by the second. Cone's 19-strikeout game was 99 or 105. Seaver's one-hitter was 96 or 103. Leach's one-hitter was 91 or 93.


Frayed Knot FCL Mets

Frayed Knot

Old-Timey Member
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If game scores aren't era-adjusted, particularly say for strikeouts, then it seems to me it would throw off at least part of its intended meaning.
10 Ks in a game meant a helluva lot more years ago than it does today.


dinosaur jesus Prep Ball

dinosaur jesus

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The thing about game scores is, they were never meant to measure how well someone pitched, but how impressive he was. A shutout's a shutout; if you don't allow any runs, it doesn't matter if you struck out 20 and allowed 1 hit, or allowed 12 hits and didn't strike out anybody. But the first game is definitely more impressive than the second.

It's definitely biased in favor of more recent pitchers, as far as the highest individual game scores. But overall it's actually biased the other way, since pitcher's used to pitch more innings.


Edgy MD FCL Mets

Edgy MD

Site Manager
Posted
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dinosaur jesus wrote:
The thing about game scores is, they were never meant to measure how well someone pitched, but how impressive he was. A shutout's a shutout; if you don't allow any runs, it doesn't matter if you struck out 20 and allowed 1 hit, or allowed 12 hits and didn't strike out anybody. But the first game is definitely more impressive than the second.

It's definitely biased in favor of more recent pitchers, as far as the highest individual game scores. But overall it's actually biased the other way, since pitcher's used to pitch more innings.

So deGrom's game is better (game score-wise) than Seaver's because a complete game is more impressive in 2016 than in 1969?


Frayed Knot FCL Mets

Frayed Knot

Old-Timey Member
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But if, just to pick an example, two 15-K/one-hit/no-walk complete game shutouts were to automatically receive the same score even if pitched in very different eras then Game Score is distorting things somewhat in a similar way to say judging Jorge Posada the better offensive hitter as compared to Johnny Bench based on owning a 31 points higher lifetime OPS would be without also taking into account that Posada's entire career fell during the boom era 90s-2000s while Bench debuted in 1968. And indeed the era-compensating [u:ijel3sa2]OPS+[/u:ijel3sa2] shows Bench to be some 5% better (126 to 121).


dinosaur jesus Prep Ball

dinosaur jesus

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Edgy MD wrote:
dinosaur jesus wrote:
The thing about game scores is, they were never meant to measure how well someone pitched, but how impressive he was. A shutout's a shutout; if you don't allow any runs, it doesn't matter if you struck out 20 and allowed 1 hit, or allowed 12 hits and didn't strike out anybody. But the first game is definitely more impressive than the second.

It's definitely biased in favor of more recent pitchers, as far as the highest individual game scores. But overall it's actually biased the other way, since pitcher's used to pitch more innings.

So deGrom's game is better (game score-wise) than Seaver's because a complete game is more impressive in 2016 than in 1969?


It isn't better score-wise. DeGrom's game score is 91 or 97, depending which calculation you use, and Seaver's is 96 or 103. AmazinAvenue got confused by the two ways of calculating game score. DeGrom's isn't even close to the second-best Mets nine-inning game score ever. It's not even in the top 10, maybe even the top 20. Seaver alone had seven games higher than that. In 1984, Gooden had two in a row. In 2012, so did Dickey. Two starts before his record 99, Cone had a 95. Shawn Estes, for Christ's sake, had a 92 one time.


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