IGT 5/13/12 Deloris Wright's Mets @ Isabel Ramirez's Marlins

[Frayed Knot]

If they're going to lose these things anyway I wish they'd do it in two and a half hours instead of three and a half - I got other shit to do.

It's like these relievers take turns deciding who's turn it is to suck that particular day. Today we obviously had two of them.

Frankie was right about those pitches he wasn't getting from the ump on the Buck AB but it doesn't matter.
Until you can actually get a major league hitter out you're best off just shutting the fuck up!

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm working very hard at not letting this ruin Wifey's mother's day. Geez, what a terrible finish.

Even if you think Francisco's the shittiest pitcher in the pen, which he might be, it was probably the right situation for him. The two prior innings were closer to disaster, he had the benefit of a two-run cushion and the buttend of their lineup. Fuck him.

[smg58]

I need to avoid watching Met games with my highly cynical father. One guy gets on and he says, "We can't win this."

Acosta's first pitch to Kearns was a nice strike on a curveball. Had he thrown that pitch to Hanley, he'd have already been in the dugout, and we'd be complimenting him for minimizing the damage and keeping the team in the game.

[ashie62]

Removing Niese was a mistake plain and simple.

[bmfc1]

I agree w/you Ashie62. My son and I argued about it at the time and then after the game. The manager obviously wanted to pad the lead but a) Niese was pitching well and had a strong 6th inning, the bullpen sucks, c) there were two out, and d) he sent up Ike Davis who couldn't start because he was ill (and if he was healthy, would have stayed in the game for defense but did not). This was over-managing by Terry and it contributed to the loss.

[Chad ochoseis]

Hindsight's a great thing to have. Niese had been very good. He hadn't been great - eight baserunners in six innings, and it could have easily been more but for a couple of good plays by Wright. We had two runners in scoring position late in a tie game with two outs. We needed to maximize the probability of getting those runs in. PHing for Niese was exactly the right thing to do, even if it didn't work out this time.

The bullpen has had its hot moments and its cold moments in this small sample size of a season. I'm not ready to avoid it at all costs yet.

Davis is sucking now and Baxter is hot, but Davis has a successful season and a half of hitting experience and Baxter has a month of good PHing. It's not obvious who would have been the better choice to PH. I don't know exactly how sick Davis was, and neither does anyone else posting here, unless Ray Ramirez is sneaking in under a fake name.

[bmfc1]

"Hindsight's a great thing to have." I wouldn't have written that if I didn't feel that way before the play. An argument can be made either way.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Guest

[Fman99]

Fuck Francisco in his Latino lead blowing asshole.

[ashie62]

Fman99 wrote: Fuck Francisco in his Latino lead blowing asshole.

Like this??

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

RE: the Niese move...

5 of those baserunners came in the first two innings-- he'd retired something like 11 of the prior 12 batters heading into the seventh.

It's more understandable late in a tie game, or-- moreso-- if the team's behind, with time running out. But Niese was cruising with a two-run lead and no signs of tiring, and Niese on a good day is a better option at that point than anyone in the pen (plus, he handles the bat well enough to pinch-hit for other pitchers). And yes, I did feel that way pre-switch.

[Edgy MD]

Ashie62 wrote: Removing Niese was a mistake plain and simple.

I'm here.

Bullpens will always disappoint. The matter-of-course attitude of "The starter's done his job, let's go to the pen" will always bite you in the ass. Why lift a guy who's getting it done to invite the risk that you'll put the game in the hands of a guy who doesn't have his game? Why take the risk that you'll end up having the game on the line and your eighth-best pitcher on the mound?

I'm slower to blame the manager. It's the sea he swims in, but I wish he was more of a rebel fish. What exactly are you saving your pitcher for? It's like you haven't done your job unless you've worked everybody into his role. Plan on finishing the game with the same nine guys you started with, and adjust if you have to.

The Mets were twice the team the Marlins were this weekend, but just weren't tight.

[ashie62]

It's a series where you get the hell out of that clown stadium and move on to the next town I guess.

[Frayed Knot]

I didn't have a problem with using a PH there - one hit and a precarious-no-matter-who's-in-there two run lead becomes a three or a four or even a five and more than makes up for whatever you give up in a pitching change if it's even known that you're giving up anything. Taking out the starter and handing things to the pen does NOT always burn you, sometimes the opposite does.
An argument could be made that maybe Baxter there would have been the better choice than Ike but that just meant he was available later and Terry's later batting moves all paid off. The gutsy move, I thought, was bringing Turner in in a spot where you were going to have to use Nickeas anyway so the temptation was to save a player and PH him instead. Terry gambled there at being in a tied game with only Hairston left on the roster and, for a time anyway, seemed to hit the jackpot.

Either way, I certainly don't see it as cut-n-dried that it was the wrong move and I don't want to NOT make moves due to the assumed failure of the replacements.

[Edgy MD]

I mean to suggest it always eventually burns you. You cut out after seven, you are almost by definition replacing the more capable pitchers with the lesser ones, and usually by definition replacing the guy who is on his game today with an unknown quality.

You do it and you're trending in the wrong direction as far as pitcher effectiveness, and you don't have to be.

It's not an assumed failure, it's a guy understood to be lower on the depth chart and less reliable, and therefore --- if the starter's performance hasn't otherwise warranted a move --- a definitively greater risk of failure.

[Edgy MD]

And lest I be unfair, reviewing the video, Tichenor was squeezing the heck out of him.

[Frayed Knot]

There's a difference between doing it constantly and doing it just to do it ('Oh look it's the 7th inning, my watch says it's time to replace the starter') and doing it for a legit, even if arguable, reason.
Too many of the former will eventually burn you because you are, by definition, venturing into the unknown. But the starter's future is also unknown and there will be times where one inning more is one inning too many.

[Edgy MD]

The starter's future is unknown, as every future is unknown, but the pattern of success (a shutout!) skews likelihood in his favor, relative to his untested peers. With every successful batter, that skews more.

Continuing to commit to your starter until actual indications of failure present themselves does not have to be done one inning at a time (by which time relieving him may be a moot point), but you can commit to him one out at a time, one batter, one pitch.

Keep and eye on him, keep relievers warmed and ready, but don't pull him because of some idea that the eighth inning is somebody else's job, or some baseless notion that the human arm is decimally programmed to weaken after 100 pitches.

I concur that lifting him for a pinch-hitter has an arguable benefit. I'd argue against that, and I'd certainly support Baxter's bat instead. But that's second guessing. I wanted Niese to hit. But I guess I knew he wouldn't, so I'll drop out.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Also, it always starts with Bonifacio, doesn't it?

[Frayed Knot]

It seems that Niese was also suffering from the old catch-all "flu-like symptoms", something which may have been a factor in the whole PH-vs-not discussion.

Former SI writer Steve Rushin once did an entire piece based around sports and its use of the phrase 'flu-like symptoms'.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Actually that was me pretending to be Rushin.

[G-Fafif]

Steve Rushin: Current SI writer.

[Frayed Knot]

Steve Rushin: Current SI writer.

Didn't realize he had gone back. Shows how much I've lost touch with SI.

[Ceetar]

Steve Rushin: Current SI writer. Didn't realize he had gone back. Shows how much I've lost touch with SI.

I found a 199..2 i think, issue of the swimsuit edition.