Shuffling the deck upstairs

[Mex17]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2010/08/16/2010-08-16_voice_vision_badly_needed.html

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Who's in charge here?

The obvious answer seems to be Jeff Wilpon, at least partly because his father, Fred, clearly wants nothing to do anymore with running the club that he owns.
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OK then, if that is really true, and Fred wants Jeffy to take over the reigns, then Fred should officially step aside now.

The way the "Office of the Chairman" is set up right now is as follows (Anyone who has a yearbook can verify this):

Fred is CEO and Chairman of the Board
Saul Katz is President
Jeffy is COO

Perhaps someone with more knowledge of high-end corporate structures can further enlighten us as to what the differences amongst these three roles are, but I basically understand that the CEO/Chairman role is more "hands off"/big picture as opposed to COO (what the difference between "CEO" and "President" is I have no idea).

Back in the old, successful, days, Nelson Doubleday was CEO/Chairman, Fred was President and Frank Cashen was GM/COO(again, look at old yearbooks to see for yourself).

So, what it seems to me (like we don't already know this) is that Jeffy, in his current capacity, is the wrench in the machine. Since, right now, it is a pipe dream that the Wilpons sell the team, I think that the more prudent (and very achievable) thing to do would be for Fred to resign and give Jeff the CEO/Chairman role. Basically, kick the kid upstairs where he cannot gets in the middle of things quite as much. Then, whoever is GM (Ricco or whoever else) also gets the COO role.

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But at least try to set this thing up the in the way that worked before, for the love of God!!

[Frayed Knot]

1) The part about Fred "clearly" not having any interest in the team he owns is quite a statement for Harper to throw out there and then not explain other than connecting it to some stupid throw-away line about Minaya last week that was designed to do nothing more than change the subject.

2) Don't get too hung up on specific titles as if the duties associated with each are exactly the same in different companies or in different eras

3) the GM as COO (or whatever label you want to hand him) is a remnant of the past at this point. As Gary Cohen explained during the NYM HoF day a few weeks back, Cashen was in large part responsible for hiring him (Cohen) whereas today's GMs would have neither the power nor interest in deciding who the radio guy was today. It's much more an on-field only personnel job these days.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Guest

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, the GM is no longer a "general" manager.

The title should probably be Manager of Baseball Operations, or something like that.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The chair manages the board duties. Their primary job, I think, is to appoint the president and review his or her work.

[ashie62]

Omar serves at the pleasure of the COO who serves the President who is reviewed by the CEO. In a public company all are accountable to the Board of Directors voted upon by the shareholders.

In a private entity this structure can be less "formal." At any rate Fred Wilpon is certainly involved.

[Mex17]

Ashie62 wrote: At any rate Fred Wilpon is certainly involved.

OK, but for how much longer does he want to be? Regardless of Harper not backing up his statement, the man is getting up there in years. We all know that he wants Jeff as the heir apparent, but it seems as if this transitional stage where the elder has not yet stepped back officially has caused a bottleneck in the organization. I think there is, at minimum, one too many chefs in the kitchen.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

If Fred already has stepped back and Jeff is doing more (and I think that's probably true although not quite the same as Harper "disinterested" line) then I don't see where it matters if titles have changed place or not.
And if Fred still is running things just not as publicly as before then it really doesn't matter that titles haven't changed place.

[Zvon]

Oh, what I would give to see what how things would have gone if Doubleday bought out Wilpon instead of the other way around.

[Frayed Knot]

I fail to understand the Met fan (mostly belated) love for Nelson Doubleday. He was (IMO) the typical rich guy to whom the team was an expensive toy and who CLEARLY became disinterested in owning the team after a while.
Not that any of that makes him a bad guy necessarily (although at times was both a drunk and a bigot according to various sources) just hardly my idea of the ideal owner.

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: I fail to understand the Met fan (mostly belated) love for Nelson Doubleday. He was (IMO) the typical rich guy to whom the team was an expensive toy and who CLEARLY became disinterested in owning the team after a while. Not that any of that makes him a bad guy necessarily (although at times was both a drunk and a bigot according to various sources) just hardly my idea of the ideal owner.

I know next to nothing about him.
I only know he's not Fred Wilpon.

[Mex17]

Frayed Knot wrote: I fail to understand the Met fan (mostly belated) love for Nelson Doubleday. He was (IMO) the typical rich guy to whom the team was an expensive toy and who CLEARLY became disinterested in owning the team after a while. Not that any of that makes him a bad guy necessarily (although at times was both a drunk and a bigot according to various sources) just hardly my idea of the ideal owner.

He stayed out of the way and let Cashen build a champion.

[Frayed Knot]

Which says more, in my mind, about the presence of Cashen than it does about the presence of Doubleday.

[MFS62]

Bigot?
In what way?
Do you have any sources you can provide?

Later

[Frayed Knot]

Nelson got caught mumbling some anti-Jewish remarks at one point (or maybe more than one) although I forget the specific details.

[Mex17]

MFS62 wrote: Bigot? In what way? Do you have any sources you can provide? Later

Pick up the book "Lords of the Realm".

[Mex17]

Frayed Knot wrote: Which says more, in my mind, about the presence of Cashen than it does about the presence of Doubleday.

And quite a bit more about the enhanced presence of Wilpon once he bought (swindled?) an additional 49% of the team from Doubleday after 1986 and injected himself moreso into the operation.

[G-Fafif]

Nelson got caught mumbling some anti-Jewish remarks at one point (or maybe more than one) although I forget the specific details.

New York Observer story from 2000 recounted the episode here.

Then, in the spring of 1994, a book about the ouster of baseball commissioner Fay Vincent by a group of owners led by Bud Selig and Jerry Reinsdorf quoted Mr. Doubleday, a Vincent ally, telling league presidents Bobby Brown and Bill White: "It looks like the Jewboys finally got you." A former employee told Newsday that Mr. Doubleday had said similar things in his presence, but only "when he was drinking." Mr. Wilpon, who is Jewish, stood up for Mr. Doubleday, saying: "It's not like Nelson to talk that way." After that, one person familiar with the team said, Mr. Doubleday disappeared from the scene and Mr. Wilpon took charge, with a more hands-on approach. He has installed loyal subordinates who have frequently come into conflict with executives loyal to Mr. Doubleday.

[Mex17]

Nelson got caught mumbling some anti-Jewish remarks at one point (or maybe more than one) although I forget the specific details. New York Observer story from 2000 recounted the episode here. Then, in the spring of 1994, a book about the ouster of baseball commissioner Fay Vincent by a group of owners led by Bud Selig and Jerry Reinsdorf quoted Mr. Doubleday, a Vincent ally, telling league presidents Bobby Brown and Bill White: "It looks like the Jewboys finally got you." A former employee told Newsday that Mr. Doubleday had said similar things in his presence, but only "when he was drinking." Mr. Wilpon, who is Jewish, stood up for Mr. Doubleday, saying: "It's not like Nelson to talk that way." After that, one person familiar with the team said, Mr. Doubleday disappeared from the scene and Mr. Wilpon took charge, with a more hands-on approach. He has installed loyal subordinates who have frequently come into conflict with executives loyal to Mr. Doubleday.

[Frayed Knot]

Mex17 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Which says more, in my mind, about the presence of Cashen than it does about the presence of Doubleday. And quite a bit more about the enhanced presence of Wilpon once he bought (swindled?) an additional 49% of the team from Doubleday after 1986 and injected himself moreso into the operation.

Swindled?
C'mon now. Do you want to actually have a discussion about this or are you just going to stick the black hat on Wilpon in any instance whether it fits or not?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Really, the baseless insinutation of "swindled" is about as anti-Semitic as anything reportedly mumbled by Nelson Doubleday.

Doubleday and Wilpon bought the team together from Doubleday, Inc.

If you think you don't like the Wilpons, imagine the Mets as a leveragable asset under a corporate owner treading water in a dying industry.

[Mex17]

Edgy DC wrote: Really, the baseless insinutation of "swindled" is about as anti-Semitic as anything reportedly mumbled by Nelson Doubleday. Doubleday and Wilpon bought the team together from Doubleday, Inc. If you think you don't like the Wilpons, imagine the Mets as a leveragable asset under a corporate owner treading water in a dying industry.

Nonsense. At no time did I make any reference to Wilpon's heritage or faith.

The fact is that Doubleday was attempting to sell his publishing company but wanted to retain the Mets (who were technically owned by Doubleday Publishing), so he needed to conduct a paper transaction from the company to himself personally. At NO TIME did he EVER intend to offer Wilpon 50% of the team. However, he must have had bad lawyers because Wilpon found a loophole that allowed him to buy half of it against the will of Doubleday.

Who is really the anti-Semite, the guy who is talking about a topic unrelated to ethnicity that just so happens to to touch upon a stereotype or the guy who pounces upon that coincidence and cry anti-Semitism?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I didn't cry anything.

The accusation of swindling is baseless.

[Mex17]

Edgy DC wrote: I didn't cry anything. The accusation of swindling is baseless.

You did and it's not.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Listen, you'll know when I cry.

Wilpon made a purchase according to his contractual rights. It was a purchase that doesn't fit any definition of swindle.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: I didn't cry anything.

Kinda, yeah, you did.

"Really, the baseless insinutation of "swindled" is about as anti-Semitic as anything reportedly mumbled by Nelson Doubleday."

Mex17 wrote: Edgy wrote: The accusation of swindling is baseless. You did and it's not.

Unless you've got something tangible that's somehow escaped everyone else's notice for twenty years... it kind of is.

You're BOTH pretty. Now kiss and make up.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'M PRETTIER!

You're right. It isn't as anti-Semitic as Doubleday's mumblings. I think it's a wreckless smear. But making my logical leap to demonstrate how wreckless it is certainly wreckless and unfair as well. I apologize and withdraw.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I do remember reading something that alluded to the Doubleday, Inc.-to-Doubleday/Wilpon transaction as being something of a tactless Wilpon power grab. I don't remember what the material was, though ("Worst Team Money Could Buy?")... and, as I recall, it was all intimation, anyway.

[Frayed Knot]

The deal was that Wilpon, who was a minority owner (about 10% I think) when Doubleday first purchased the team, had a clause in his contract (or whatever you call an ownership agreement) that he could get the right of first refusal to become an equal partner in the team if/when the team was sold.
So when it was sold from Doubleday the company to Doubleday the person Fred exercised that right and, as a result, increased his ownership (as in paid enough of the re-sale price) to a full 50%. That Doubleday was unaware of that clause, or that he didn't want to share, or that he decided he didn't like having a Jew partner, or that he just didn't like Wilpon for whatever reason is HIS problem not Fred's, and it certainly doesn't make it a "swindle".

[Frayed Knot]

Mex17 wrote: MFS62 wrote: Bigot? In what way? Do you have any sources you can provide? Later Pick up the book "Lords of the Realm".

btw, If you read 'Lords of the Realm' you may remember the passage about how Doubleday locked himself into a 20-year deal with Cablevision despite the advice from MLB HQ that it would be much better to go with shorter deals that could be re-upped sooner at higher rates. "Go fuck yourselves" I think was Nelson's reply to that advice.

The point being that it turned out to be a not very smart business decision and one that almost certainly held back the team financially while the Yanx were able to sign their landmark deal with MSG in 1989 at a huge increase (while they were definitively NOT the hotter NY property) and then go on to start YES when that deal was over all while the Mets were playing with the same early '80s contract that eventually outlasted the owner who insisted on it. By the time it was finally coming to an end it was so past its sell-by date that Wilpon felt it better to pay a big fee and buy themselves out of the last year - possibly costing a player or two - just in order to get SNY started rather than living with the outdated deal one more season.

[dgwphotography]

Wasn't Fred the major player in buying the team from the DeRoulet's? IIRC, Fred didn't have the needed capital, and brought the proposal to Nelson, and had to convince him to buy in.