Poll: Citi Field Outfield Fences

[Edgy MD]

I also think Howard Johnson's been an enabler, trying to help him adjust to he new situation.

I mean, the guy was hitting what? About eight homers to right center per season at Shea? How much damage can Citi really do? Two or three of those homers still go out, two or three become outs, and two or three become doubles. Is that worth screwing up your swing over?

Because the acknowledgment that he's knowingly screwed up his swing is the real story here.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy DC wrote: I also think Howard Johnson's been an enabler, trying to help him adjust to he new situation. I mean, the guy was hitting what? About eight homers to right center per season at Shea? How much damage can Citi really do? Two or three of those homers still go out, two or three become outs, and two or three become doubles. Is that worth screwing up your swing over? Because the acknowledgment that he's knowingly screwed up his swing is the real story here.

But it wasn't simply losing two HR's; Wright hit 10 in '09. And how many of Wright's can of corns over the last two years were the result of simply trying to compensate or adjust to Citi Field? Only Wright would know, if anyone.

I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right.

[dgwphotography]

They should just replicate the Shea dimensions where possible, and just be done with it.

[Ceetar]

dgwphotography wrote: They should just replicate the Shea dimensions where possible, and just be done with it.

If they had built Citi with Shea dimensions, people would still be calling for them to reduce/adjust them.

[Frayed Knot]

I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right.

As opposed to those theories I seem to hear all the time about how a team in a hitter's environment can't win -- a theory which obviously took a hit after the Phils won the WS.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right. As opposed to those theories I seem to hear all the time about how a team in a hitter's environment can't win -- a theory which obviously took a hit after the Phils won the WS.

Look at the Mets record at Citi Field, specifically before Manuel completely lost the team late in the season, and it suggests that if anything the _opposition_ finds Citi Field extremely imposing and scary. Now imagine that the Mets actually compete to their level of talent or above, and we're into it as fans, and in addition to whatever scares the Goose Egg Phillies, you've got 40k screaming fans.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right. As opposed to those theories I seem to hear all the time about how a team in a hitter's environment can't win -- a theory which obviously took a hit after the Phils won the WS.

You think i'm done with you over in that CPF rankings thread? I'm not.

[Frayed Knot]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right. As opposed to those theories I seem to hear all the time about how a team in a hitter's environment can't win -- a theory which obviously took a hit after the Phils won the WS. You think i'm done with you over in that CPF rankings thread? I'm not.

I'll take non-sequiturs for $200 Alex.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right. As opposed to those theories I seem to hear all the time about how a team in a hitter's environment can't win -- a theory which obviously took a hit after the Phils won the WS. You think i'm done with you over in that CPF rankings thread? I'm not. I'll take non-sequiturs for $200 Alex.

When was the last time you saw Wayne Hagin?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right. As opposed to those theories I seem to hear all the time about how a team in a hitter's environment can't win -- a theory which obviously took a hit after the Phils won the WS. Look at the Mets record at Citi Field, specifically before Manuel completely lost the team late in the season, and it suggests that if anything the _opposition_ finds Citi Field extremely imposing and scary. Now imagine that the Mets actually compete to their level of talent or above, and we're into it as fans, and in addition to whatever scares the Goose Egg Phillies, you've got 40k screaming fans.

But the Mets were getting killed on the road.

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I also think Howard Johnson's been an enabler, trying to help him adjust to he new situation. I mean, the guy was hitting what? About eight homers to right center per season at Shea? How much damage can Citi really do? Two or three of those homers still go out, two or three become outs, and two or three become doubles. Is that worth screwing up your swing over? Because the acknowledgment that he's knowingly screwed up his swing is the real story here. But it wasn't simply losing two HR's; Wright hit 10 in '09. And how many of Wright's can of corns over the last two years were the result of simply trying to compensate or adjust to Citi Field? Only Wright would know, if anyone. I hope the Mets move the fences in because I have a personal theory that it's extremely difficult to build a winner in a stadium that takes HR's away in every part of the field -- left, center and right.

I left out that Edgy's post assumes that the distribution of all of Wright's batted balls (location/distance/speed of ball) essentially was unchanged after the Mets moved to Citi. But Wright likely altered his swing to compensate for the dramatic differences in the dimensions of Shea and Citi, thus changing Wright's distribution of batted balls.

[dgwphotography]

Ceetar wrote: dgwphotography wrote: They should just replicate the Shea dimensions where possible, and just be done with it. If they had built Citi with Shea dimensions, people would still be calling for them to reduce/adjust them.

I problem is that they have all of these stupid nooks and crannies for no reason. Make it a fair park like Shea for both sides of the plate.

[metirish]

dgwphotography wrote: They should just replicate the Shea dimensions where possible, and just be done with it.

Makes far too much sense.....it will never be done.....I agree though...

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: dgwphotography wrote: They should just replicate the Shea dimensions where possible, and just be done with it. Makes far too much sense.....it will never be done.....I agree though...

Put me down on the agree list. That the Mets have a David Wright, a perennial all-star and MVP candidate, an all around good guy, the centerpiece of the franchise, and that they build a new stadium with dimensions so cavernous that Wright would have to practically re-invent his swing is something only the dumb Mets would do.

[Ceetar]

I don't think the dimensions are "so cavernous" and I think Wright reinventing his swing (another black mark for Hojo here as well) was part of the problem in 2009. If he'd acted normal, he still would've driven the ball out to left, and would've hit the gap in RF a lot for doubles and triples, as well as the ocassional home run when he put a good swing on it.

The problem is that he pysched himself out a lot. He hit some towering flies that the wind kept in the park. I remember one he absolutely crushed, but it wasn't his typical line drive swing, he uppercutted it and despite looking like it could've left the building, the wind held it in. Nobody talks about teh wind as much except for those swirling april days, but the park is shorter and i suspect when you hit it high enough, the wind plays a bigger role.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Sounds like you should be the batting coach.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I also think Howard Johnson's been an enabler, trying to help him adjust to he new situation. I mean, the guy was hitting what? About eight homers to right center per season at Shea? How much damage can Citi really do? Two or three of those homers still go out, two or three become outs, and two or three become doubles. Is that worth screwing up your swing over? Because the acknowledgment that he's knowingly screwed up his swing is the real story here. But it wasn't simply losing two HR's; Wright hit 10 in '09. And how many of Wright's can of corns over the last two years were the result of simply trying to compensate or adjust to Citi Field? Only Wright would know, if anyone.

I didn't say he simply lost two homers.

And I did make clear that my position is that he shouldn't try to compensate, and that the real damage to his performance isn't done by the dimensions, but by trying to compensate for them.

[batmagadanleadoff]

New avatar? (Just wait'll you get to my revised post! Hah.)

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I left out that Edgy's post assumes that the distribution of all of Wright's batted balls (location/distance/speed of ball) essentially was unchanged after the Mets moved to Citi. But Wright likely altered his swing to compensate for the dramatic differences in the dimensions of Shea and Citi, thus changing Wright's distribution of batted balls.

No, no it doesn't. It assumes very clearly that he has made alterations. The numbers in the first paragraph represent what the damage might look like if it was due to the dimensions alone.

[metsmarathon]

well, he didn't really need to reinvent his swing did he?

had he maintained the same exact approach, he would've seen a slight dip in his overall production. instead, he attempted to revamp his approach to try to hit more home runs, or merely to retain his prior home run rate, with the assumption that it would have no negative consequences on any other aspect of his offensive production.

this is an especially bad thing for him to have done since one could assume that david's prior approach was nearly optimal given his abilities. i mean, the guy was consistently one of the five or ten most productive hitters in the league. that's pretty optimal. and by changing it to favor one aspect, it clearly affected the rest of his game. its almost too predictable an outcome, really.

i don't fault citifield with making david wright a shitty player in '09 and a flawed yet recovering player in '10. i blame david. and also the coaching and support staff for fostering and/or allowing it.

imo, the nature of the park was fairly well suited to david to begin with. the guy hits a lot of home runs, but not too many of them are towering drives like ike hits. so if he does lose home runs, he's more likely to see them turn in to extra base hits than outs, as there's less time for outfielders to chase down the liners in the gaps than towering fly balls in the gaps. the wall height hurts, sure, but that becomes an opportunity still. caroms lead to doubles and triples. which leads to more runs scored. it only hurts hte home run totals. again, if david only sees his offensive value in terms of home run numbers, that's his fault, not the stadium's.

i like nooks and crannies. i wish they had worked them in more organically, but on the whole i'm fine with it. the baseball stadium lacking arbitrary dimensions is truly rare. really, i think fenway is about the only one, or the only one left standing. every other facet and feature of a stadium is there because someone arbitrarily decided it would either be more interesting (or just cheaper to build) that way.

[Edgy MD]

So ceetar, marathon, and I are together on this. New dimensions are not so damaging as new dimension paranoia.

[Ceetar]

I'd like the new coaching staff to come out and start with reminding everyone that the walls ARE high and to take nothing for granted. That they, especially the quicker guys like Beltran and Wright, should be thinking triple on every towering fly ball.

And that the outfielders should do the same, and work on gunning guys out at third, or even second if they prematurely break into home run trots.

[metsmarathon]

let the other team freak out about how hard it is to knock the ball out of citifield while our guys rack up double after triple after double.

unless it's chase utley, who seems really ok with citi's dimensions.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

metsmarathon wrote: i like nooks and crannies. i wish they had worked them in more organically, but on the whole i'm fine with it. the baseball stadium lacking arbitrary dimensions is truly rare. really, i think fenway is about the only one, or the only one left standing. every other facet and feature of a stadium is there because someone arbitrarily decided it would either be more interesting (or just cheaper to build) that way.

Well, yeah... but that's because they were all designed by HOK/Populous over a 15-year-span, and directed by people who hang in the same packs and tend toward aesthetic copycatting (hell, just look at how they run the clubs otherwise).

Quirks and whimsy can be very cool. But if they're just tacked on for the hell of it, then they're more affectation than charming characteristic. It all ends up feeling as if an old friend of yours gets a makeover, and, in addition to the clothing/hair changes, he suddenly starts talking with a British accent, or walking around with a python draped over his shoulders. By now, I'm used to Citi's juts-n'-stuff, or most of the way there, at least. But still... if the best one can say about it is that it's just as phony as the rest of 'em...

And I still want my home-run-robbing catches, dammit.

[Ceetar]

You can still get home run robbing catches in CF. and by the poles, which is harder.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I already miss the symetrically dimensioned parks. These new parks look all the same with their contrived differences.

[ashie62]

At least David Wright feels so.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/518721-citi-field-needs-a-serious-face-lift-and-new-york-mets-david-wright-agrees

[Edgy MD]

Merged.

[Ceetar]

Well of course David Wright wishes the fences were 320 feet. Do you think Santana wants them moved in?

Do you think Jimmy Rollins wants Citi's fences moved in?

[metsmarathon]

see, that's the thing. i don't care about seeing the 2011 mets reach their home run potential. i care much more about them reaching their win potential.

and i think that a home offense that isn't afraid to hit in the big bad scary park combined with a pitching staff that gains confidence from its imposing dimensions is a good thing and a goal that the team should have.

let other hitters come to our park and think they can't get shit done. let them press and change their approach.
i must say, though, that i do like home run robbing catches. if the fences were lower in center and right, i wouldn't mind it too much. but do we really need to bring them in ten feet to do that?

i think the mo's zone is fine. lame name, but i like it. if they modify the walls and fences, i hope the essence of the zone remains.