You're The General Manager

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, I was defending it only because that was brought up.

I mostly defend relievers based on the tendency to turn runs (and runs prevented) into wins, based on the notion that X Runs = 1 win. I don't think that's fair to releivers, because they are brought in to prevent specific runs based on the leverage those runs mean toward the game.

Basically you don't have to believe in and reward batters and pitchers for an ability to perform in the clutch, but when relievers (and pinch hitters) have nearly 100% of their success (and failure) occur in the clutch, I think that performance should be appropriately wieghted and measured as such.

Niekro has be one of the most screwed pithers in terms of Cy Young support.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy DC wrote: Niekro has be one of the most screwed pithers in terms of Cy Young support.

For sure. His peak years were the mid-70's, when the Braves sucked and 80% of the typical voter's effort consisted of looking at a pitcher's W-L record. He was quite the dominant pitcher for a while.

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Niekro has be one of the most screwed pithers in terms of Cy Young support. For sure. His peak years were the mid-70's, when the Braves sucked and 80% of the typical voter's effort consisted of looking at a pitcher's W-L record. He was quite the dominant pitcher for a while.

Niekro also led the NL in ERA in '67, but didn't get a single vote in the CY voting.

[batmagadanleadoff]

The top 25 WAR seasons for NL pitchers over the last 50 years. Matlack's '74 (ranked 23rd) doesn't get bumped off. This means that a season as good as Matlack's comes along less than once every two years. According to WAR, anyways. Three seasons from 1969 make the list: but not The Franchise's '69.

Rank	Pitcher/Team	WAR	YEAR	Cy Young Award Winner/WAR Rank
1	Steve Carlton/PHI	12.2	1972
2	Bob Gibson/STL	11.9	1968
3	Dwight Gooden/NYM	11.7	1985
4	Bob Gibson/STL	11.0	1969	Tom Seaver/NYM/7.6/6th
5	Sandy Koufax/LA	10.8	1966
6	Sandy Koufax/LA	10.8	1963
7	Dick Ellsworth/CHI	10.3	1963
8	Tom Seaver/NYM	9.5	1973
9	Steve Carlton/PHI	9.4	1980
10	Fergie Jenkins/CHI	9.2	1971
11	Tom Seaver/NYM	9.2	1971
12	Juan Marichal/SF	9.2	1965	Sandy Koufax/LA/8.2/3rd
13	Phil Niekro/ATL	9.1	1978	Gaylord Perry/SD/4.7/11th
14	Larry Dierker/HOU	9.0	1969
15	Juan Marichal/SF	9.0	1966
16	Randy Johnson/ARI	8.8	2002
17	Greg Maddux/ATL	8.8	1995
18	Bill Hands/CHI	8.8	1969
19	Rick Reuschel/CHI	8.7	1977	Steve Carlton/PHI/5.8/6th
20	Bob Gibson/STL	8.7	1970
21	Jim Bunning/PHI	8.7	1966
22	Jose Rijo/CIN	8.6	1993	Greg Maddux/ATL/6.2/2nd
23	Jon Matlack/NYM	8.6	1974	Mike Marshall/LA/3.1/19th
24	Phil Niekro/ATL	8.5	1977
25	Dave Roberts/SD	8.5	1971

[batmagadanleadoff]

Some more WAR mongering:

Trivia: Seven pitchers account for the Mets all time top 15 WAR for pitcher seasons. Name them.

Rules: You must name all seven pitchers in one post. I will post the list of top Mets pitcher WAR seasons as soon as someone correctly posts all seven pitchers or at the beginning of tonight's game -- whichever comes first. I'm not going to give hints or point out which portion of someone's guess is wrong and which portion is right. Ready? Set?

Go.

[DocTee]

Koosman.
Gooden
Seaver
Darling
Fernandez
Cone
Santana

[Benjamin Grimm]

Seaver, Koosman, Gooden, Cone, Viola, Santana, Matlack

[Guest Edgy DC]

Seaver Gooden Koosman [crossout:2cndi9v4]Saberhagen[/crossout:2cndi9v4]Cone Leiter Matlack

Sabe's best steason was strike-shortened. And since this is a cumulative figure, I'll say Swan instead.

[batmagadanleadoff]

No winners yet. Doc hasn't been paying attention to some stuff.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Seaver, Gooden, Martinez, Cone, Matlack, Leiter, Koosman

[batmagadanleadoff]

Still no winners.

[batmagadanleadoff]

OK. Here's a hint that I promised I wouldn't give. One poster almost got it right. His one mistake was picking a Met whose best WAR season was the team's 16th all-time best.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Seaver, Gooden, Koosman, Matlack, Cone, Viola, Fernandez

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Seaver, Gooden, Martinez, Cone, Matlack, [crossout:rsansxoo]Leiter[/crossout:rsansxoo], Koosman, Santana

[batmagadanleadoff]

Still no winners. For extra credit, only one Casey Stengel managed pitcher/season cracked the Mets top 50 for WAR. Name the pitcher and year.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Edit never mind

[batmagadanleadoff]

In other words, which Casey Stengel managed Met had the highest pitcher WAR season? (Pitcher and year, please)

[DocTee]

Matlack
Seaver
Gooden
Cone
Fernandez
Darling
Santana

[batmagadanleadoff]

Still no winners.

Hint: Only one poster got six out of seven correct pitchers.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Seaver, Gooden, Koosman, Matlack, Cone, Viola,[crossout:3v0uduax]Fernandez[/crossout:3v0uduax] Santana

OE: Just peeked. I'm out. And this ain't it. (I don't think.)

Edited August 6, 2010 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Seaver, Gooden, Koosman, Matlack, Cone, Viola,[crossout]Fernandez[/crossout] Santana

This list can't be right because it's the same seven pitchers that Grimm guessed.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Last call. I said I'd post the answers at the start of tonight's game but something suddenly came up and so I'll post 'em in 5 minutes.

Thanks for playing.

[ashie62]

Carl Wiley 1963

[batmagadanleadoff]

The seven Mets pitchers are Seaver, Gooden, Matlack, Koosman, Leiter, Santana and Viola. David Cone, whose best Met WAR season, ranked 16th all-time, was the pitcher that threw everyone off. Grimm, and then LWFS, came the closest, guessing 6 out of 7, but incorrectly guessing Cone instead of Leiter. Below is a chart of the top 25 Mets WAR pitcher seasons. Seaver's first 10 seasons(1967-1976) are all on the list. The fabulous and tragic Carlton Willey, who pitched four complete game shutouts for Casey's '63 squad is the extra credit answer. Why is there so much space between this paragraph and the chart that follows?

Rank	Pitcher	WAR	YEAR
1	Dwight Gooden	11.7	1985
2	Tom Seaver	9.5	1973
3	Tom Seaver	9.2	1971
4	Jon Matlack	8.6	1974
5	Tom Seaver	7.7	1975
6	Tom Seaver	7.6	1969
7	Tom Seaver	7.5	1968
8	Jerry Koosman	6.8	1968
9	Jon Matlack	6.7	1972
10	Jerry Koosman	6.7	1969
11	Al Leiter	6.5	1998
12	Johan Santana	6.4	2008
13	Tom Seaver	6.4	1967
14	Frank Viola	6.3	1990
15	Tom Seaver	6.0	1970
16	David Cone	5.8	1988
17	Tom Seaver	5.8	1972
18	Craig Swan	5.7	1978
19	Tom Seaver	5.7	1976
20	Tom Seaver	5.7	1974
21	Jerry Koosman	5.7	1973
22	Pedro Martinez	5.5	2005
23	Sid Fernandez	5.5	1992
24	Dwight Gooden	5.4	1984
25	Bret Saberhagen	5.2	1994

[Guest Edgy DC]

Fixed.

I feel good about being the first to come up with Leiter '98, anyhow.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Sabes really was in line for one of the all-time great Met pitching seasons, wasn't he?

He and the 'spos should form a support group.

[Benjamin Grimm]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: OK. Here's a hint that I promised I wouldn't give. One poster almost got it right. His one mistake was picking a Met whose best WAR season was the team's 16th all-time best.

It looks like that was me! (I had Viola instead of Leiter.) I'll take that as a moral victory.

That Marcia Brady sure was groovy, wasn't she? I think she was the grooviest girl in the whole school!

[ashie62]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: OK. Here's a hint that I promised I wouldn't give. One poster almost got it right. His one mistake was picking a Met whose best WAR season was the team's 16th all-time best. It looks like that was me! (I had Viola instead of Leiter.) I'll take that as a moral victory. That Marcia Brady sure was groovy, wasn't she? I think she was the grooviest girl in the whole school!

And Johnny Bravo was the coolest guy.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Best Mets Pitching WAR seasons #26-50:
(But first ... lotsa blank lines that appear before my chart for reasons that I don't know why)

Rank	Pitcher/Team	WAR	YEAR
26	Jerry Koosman	5.1	1974
27	Al Leiter	4.7	2000
28	Bob Ojeda	4.7	1986
29	Mike Hampton	4.6	2000
30	Ron Darling	4.6	1986
31	Craig Swan	4.6	1979
32	Jerry Koosman	4.6	1976
33	Jon Matlack	4.6	1973
34	Dwight Gooden	4.4	1986
35	Ron Darling	4.4	1985
36	Al Leiter	4.2	2004
37	David Cone	4.2	1991
38	Rick Reed	4.1	1998
39	Rick Reed	4.1	1997
40	Jon Matlack	4.1	1976
41	Tug McGraw	4.0	1971
42	Carl Willey	4.0	1963
43	Tug McGraw	3.9	1972
44	Dwight Gooden	3.8	1987
45	Jim McAndrew	3.8	1972
46	Steve Trachsel	3.7	2003
47	Dwight Gooden	3.7	1993
48	David Cone	3.7	1990
49	Sid Fernandez	3.7	1985
50	Johan Santana	3.6	2009

Edited August 7, 2010 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

2010 NL Pitcher WAR leaders, to date, (BR).
R.A. Dickey is 6th in IP/WAR and is on pace to knock Johan/2009 off of the Mets top #50 (see post above) Johan/2010 might also knock Johan/2009 off of the top 50. But first, some blank lines.

WAR Rank	Pitcher/Team	WAR	IP/WAR
1	Josh Johnson/FLA	5.7	25.79
2	Roy Halladay/PHI	5.6	31.79
3	Adam Wainwright/STL	4.8	33.40
4	Tim Hudson/ATL	4.6	32.32
4	Ubaldo Jimenez/COL	4.6	32.25
6	Brett Myers/HOU	3.6	41.94
6	Livan Hernandez/WAS	3.6	40.09
8	Chris Carpenter/STL	3.5	46.86
9	Johan Santana/NYM	3.3	46.87
10	Tim Lincecum/SF	3.2	47.40
11	Matt Cain/SF	3.2	47.19
12	Yovani Gallardo/MIL	3.1	40.75
13	Clayton Kershaw/LA	3.0	45.89
14	Mat Latos/SD	2.9	42.64
15	Roy Oswalt/HOU-PHI	2.8	50.48
16	Barry Zito/SF	2.7	53.21
17	R.A. Dickey/NYM	2.6	38.08
18	Jaime Garcia/STL	2.6	46.54
19	Cole Hamels/PHI	2.5	55.60
20	Ted Lilly/CHIC-LAD	2.4	51.67

Edited August 7, 2010 by Guest