Minaya's Head (split from Adam Rubin Chat)

[Centerfield]

="dgwphotography":1ldnbplq]This reminds me of July of 1973, when people were looking to fire someone from an injury-riddled team. Just sayin'[/quote:1ldnbplq] You hear that Jerry? Hold back Johan for Game 7. Only a fool would trot him out there on 3 days rest for Game 6. Dumbass.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2009 10:36 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2009 12:47 AM

It's not moves or lack of moves but the general mindset-- when roster building, you try and address potential problems preemptively, not post hoc. From 2006-07 (replace brittle, offensive-inclined LF with same and trade live arms for marginal SP candidates; ignore actual pitching upgrades, potential holes at 2B, other corner OF) to 2007-08 (get Santana; ignore brittle LF/depth issues/bullpen holes) to 2008-09 (fix bullpen/fill SP holes with plethora of "#5s"; assuming return to form by Castillo, ignores 2B and corner OF offensive deficiencies), Minaya seems caught in a loop wherein he spends each offseason addressing the biggest problems of last year, while apparently neglecting to consider potential problem areas that have existed since 2005-2006 (insufficient offensive depth to weather injuries to 1-2 members of the "core," e.g.). Whether this rearview-mirror approach to problem-solving is a function of his own thinking or how he relates to his employers is almost immaterial at this point; after three years, it's clear that's how he does business as the nominal head of baseball operations. As the head of the Mets, he's got resources with which to work-- money-wise, it's the second- or third-largest purse in the majors. With a little more foresight, this team could be nigh-unstoppable; instead, it's crumbling to pieces, in the prime years of its ultravaluable core. With his gifts for relationship-building, trade negotiations and player relations, he seems to make a fantastic assistant GM; it's become increasingly clear that he seems to lack the organizational "vision thing" required to be a superlative GM and run a consistently improving organization.

OlerudOwned Jul 07 2009 11:15 PM

He gave Luis Castillo a 4 year extension, which says a lot about his foresight.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 12:50 AM

Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html

metirish Jul 13 2009 09:07 AM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":395f8x5x]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:395f8x5x] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 09:40 AM ="metirish":1bzocfjg] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1bzocfjg]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:1bzocfjg] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too.[/quote:1bzocfjg] Considering that he spends the previous 16 column inches trashing the judgement of virtually all "Mets insiders" in decision-making roles, I think Rubin's pretty clearly making an implicit argument there. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:31 AM ]What Minaya almost undoubtedly seems to have done-- if you don't take the cynical view that this was a trade-for-trade's-sake situation-- is that he's made a scout's-mindset trade. One could also argue that some of his worst acquisitions-- Perez, e.g.-- seem to occur when he lets this mindset predominate. Sorry about quoting myself, but I posted this in the "Church-Francoeur" semantics debate, and it kinda got lost in the shuffle. I've seen this echoed in a few places this morning-- that Rubin piece from yesterday being one-- and wondered what the heads here thought. I also wonder whether Minaya's made a basic mistake of a first-time or otherwise inexperienced manager-- surrounding himself with folk with whom he has history/who are "on board" with what he's doing, rather than folk whose skills and talents complement his own (i.e., stat analysis folk who can offer counterpoint when discussing player evaluations). Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:41 AM Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez-Hernandez-for-Nady trade is probably on the negative side of the ledger, but I don't think it's close to the worst. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 11:43 AM I don't get the impression it's all very complicated with Omar. He swapped one flawed asset for another and perhaps in his estimation, a RH-hitting flawed guy was better than LH hitting flawed guy. I think he also believes in the value of new scenery. As has been remarked elsewhere, Church and Francoeur both could be nontendered this offseason, so what;s so bad about a 3-month gamble. Finally I think when in doubt Omar errs toward "talent" -- "show me talent and I'll show you on-base percentage" as he says. And he certainly believes Francoeur has "talent." Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:50 AM Edgy DC likes this. metirish Jul 13 2009 11:51 AM " something needed to be done" is what I have been hearing and reading in various forms since the trade. I may even have uttered it myself. Ron Darling has said it three times that I heard , as have a few other talking heads on SNY. I think Cohen took that view too. Not a way I want the team I support to be run but at least he didn't wake up and trade away a Grade A prospect for a middle of the road talent. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:59 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"] ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Should've been clearer-- the Perez trade was a decent move (in conception, at least) to fill both an immediate need and a looming one. The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) And I think the exact wrong time to make a move is when "we have to make a move." Desperation is a stinky cologne. Frayed Knot Jul 13 2009 02:08 PM ]The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) In fairness to the Ollie signing -- which certainly looks like shit at the moment seeing as how he's missed over half of this half-season -- I'd take what he gave us for the last two complete seasons: 63 starts; 371 IP; 320 Hits; 354 Ks; ~3.90 ERA; ~1.35 WHiP and had no problem thinking that he could more or less continue along those lines for 3 more at his age. You wanna haggle about the price go ahead but I'm not sure he could have been had for much less. As for Lowe he's certainly doing OK in 2009 (although a higher ERA & WHiP than the Ollie stats above) but neither he nor Ollie was going to be a one-year commitment (in which case I would have preferred Lowe too) and are we really going to now get on Omar's case for NOT signing a 36 y/o pitcher to a long-term contract? I think I've brought this up before but Lowe was older, more expensive, a longer commitment, and not as good a track record as compared to Glavine at the time of his NYM signing. Yet we all seem to know now that TG was a mistake all along while DL was the way to go. Sheets, meanwhile, isn't pitching because he physically can't pitch and it seems uncertain as to when he'll ever pitch again. Maybe he's great next year but Sheets has had a lot of maybes in his career and too many maybes haven't worked out in Queens lately. And, of course, signing none of the above would have just pushed the Livan/Niese/Nieve/Redding alternatives to the 5th, 4th, 3rd slot that much quicker and for that much longer. Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 02:19 PM Not that it matters now, but I was hoping at the time that Randy Wolf would get some consideration. He would have been cheaper than Perez and better than Redding. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 02:29 PM Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks. G-Fafif Jul 13 2009 02:37 PM If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 02:59 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 14 2009 12:47 PM Derek Lowe's up by 5 o'clock Derek Lowe's givin' it all he got Derek Lowe's job is six to nine but Derek Lowe's home by nine O five Derek Lowe helps to cook the steak Derek Lowe helps to wash the plates Derek Lowe puts the kids to bed Derek Lowe reads a book to them (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves Atlanta so Derek Lowe loves to wind and throw Derek Lowe's pitch has great command But Derek Lowe don't make no demands Derek Lowe's always back in time Derek Lowe's not the injured kind Derek Lowe's full of compliment Derek Lowe's such a gentleman (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Cause I'm free Free of any control pitcher qualities Thank God I'm free Cos it's hard enough for me To take care of me, oh-oh Derek Lowe's carryin' a heavy load but Derek Lowe never really ever moans Derek Lowe's such a healthy guy But Derek Lowe let's the others try Derek Lowe's got ideas and plans Derek Lowe's what you call a real man Derek Lowe always will provide 'Cuz Derek Lowe is the family type (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) 'Cause I'm free Free as an ex-Pirate pitching now in NYC Thank God I'm free Driftin' all around just like a tumbleweed, oh-oh Maybe I need a coach Someone who won't reproach Maybe an older fan base Will tolerate me Maybe that organization A kinder Metly nation Maybe the perfect situation To satisfy me Derek Lowe keeps his body clean Derek Lowe don't use nicotine Derek Lowe don't drink alcohol Derek Lowe use no drugs at all Derek Lowe don't eat any sweet Derek Lowe don't eat piggie's feet Derek Lowe's frame is mighty strong Derek Lowe make love hard and long (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves the ladies so Derek Lowe walks 'em to the sto' Derek Lowe likes to hold their hands Derek Lowe's proud to understand Derek Lowe stands for decency Derek Lowe means formality Derek Lowe's the epitome Derek Lowe stands for quality Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:16 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":303i3b2c]Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.[/quote:303i3b2c] That's because ALL the metrics tell you Francoeur sucks. (Offensive WAR-related metrics ARE a bit more foolproof than pitching... and EVERYTHING'S a lot more reliable than even the best stabs at defensive measurement... at least until that crazy new robot defense metric happens. Funny thing, though, innit-- even among statheads, offense comes first.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:18 PM ="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem. Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp] ="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

It's not moves or lack of moves but the general mindset-- when roster building, you try and address potential problems preemptively, not post hoc.

From 2006-07 (replace brittle, offensive-inclined LF with same and trade live arms for marginal SP candidates; ignore actual pitching upgrades, potential holes at 2B, other corner OF) to 2007-08 (get Santana; ignore brittle LF/depth issues/bullpen holes) to 2008-09 (fix bullpen/fill SP holes with plethora of "#5s"; assuming return to form by Castillo, ignores 2B and corner OF offensive deficiencies), Minaya seems caught in a loop wherein he spends each offseason addressing the biggest problems of last year, while apparently neglecting to consider potential problem areas that have existed since 2005-2006 (insufficient offensive depth to weather injuries to 1-2 members of the "core," e.g.). Whether this rearview-mirror approach to problem-solving is a function of his own thinking or how he relates to his employers is almost immaterial at this point; after three years, it's clear that's how he does business as the nominal head of baseball operations. As the head of the Mets, he's got resources with which to work-- money-wise, it's the second- or third-largest purse in the majors. With a little more foresight, this team could be nigh-unstoppable; instead, it's crumbling to pieces, in the prime years of its ultravaluable core.

With his gifts for relationship-building, trade negotiations and player relations, he seems to make a fantastic assistant GM; it's become increasingly clear that he seems to lack the organizational "vision thing" required to be a superlative GM and run a consistently improving organization.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Guest

[Guest OlerudOwned]

He gave Luis Castillo a 4 year extension, which says a lot about his foresight.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Yeesh, this is depressing.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html

[metirish]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":395f8x5x]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:395f8x5x] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 09:40 AM

="metirish":1bzocfjg] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1bzocfjg]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:1bzocfjg] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too.[/quote:1bzocfjg] Considering that he spends the previous 16 column inches trashing the judgement of virtually all "Mets insiders" in decision-making roles, I think Rubin's pretty clearly making an implicit argument there. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:31 AM ]What Minaya almost undoubtedly seems to have done-- if you don't take the cynical view that this was a trade-for-trade's-sake situation-- is that he's made a scout's-mindset trade. One could also argue that some of his worst acquisitions-- Perez, e.g.-- seem to occur when he lets this mindset predominate. Sorry about quoting myself, but I posted this in the "Church-Francoeur" semantics debate, and it kinda got lost in the shuffle. I've seen this echoed in a few places this morning-- that Rubin piece from yesterday being one-- and wondered what the heads here thought. I also wonder whether Minaya's made a basic mistake of a first-time or otherwise inexperienced manager-- surrounding himself with folk with whom he has history/who are "on board" with what he's doing, rather than folk whose skills and talents complement his own (i.e., stat analysis folk who can offer counterpoint when discussing player evaluations). Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:41 AM Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez-Hernandez-for-Nady trade is probably on the negative side of the ledger, but I don't think it's close to the worst. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 11:43 AM I don't get the impression it's all very complicated with Omar. He swapped one flawed asset for another and perhaps in his estimation, a RH-hitting flawed guy was better than LH hitting flawed guy. I think he also believes in the value of new scenery. As has been remarked elsewhere, Church and Francoeur both could be nontendered this offseason, so what;s so bad about a 3-month gamble. Finally I think when in doubt Omar errs toward "talent" -- "show me talent and I'll show you on-base percentage" as he says. And he certainly believes Francoeur has "talent." Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:50 AM Edgy DC likes this. metirish Jul 13 2009 11:51 AM " something needed to be done" is what I have been hearing and reading in various forms since the trade. I may even have uttered it myself. Ron Darling has said it three times that I heard , as have a few other talking heads on SNY. I think Cohen took that view too. Not a way I want the team I support to be run but at least he didn't wake up and trade away a Grade A prospect for a middle of the road talent. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:59 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"] ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Should've been clearer-- the Perez trade was a decent move (in conception, at least) to fill both an immediate need and a looming one. The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) And I think the exact wrong time to make a move is when "we have to make a move." Desperation is a stinky cologne. Frayed Knot Jul 13 2009 02:08 PM ]The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) In fairness to the Ollie signing -- which certainly looks like shit at the moment seeing as how he's missed over half of this half-season -- I'd take what he gave us for the last two complete seasons: 63 starts; 371 IP; 320 Hits; 354 Ks; ~3.90 ERA; ~1.35 WHiP and had no problem thinking that he could more or less continue along those lines for 3 more at his age. You wanna haggle about the price go ahead but I'm not sure he could have been had for much less. As for Lowe he's certainly doing OK in 2009 (although a higher ERA & WHiP than the Ollie stats above) but neither he nor Ollie was going to be a one-year commitment (in which case I would have preferred Lowe too) and are we really going to now get on Omar's case for NOT signing a 36 y/o pitcher to a long-term contract? I think I've brought this up before but Lowe was older, more expensive, a longer commitment, and not as good a track record as compared to Glavine at the time of his NYM signing. Yet we all seem to know now that TG was a mistake all along while DL was the way to go. Sheets, meanwhile, isn't pitching because he physically can't pitch and it seems uncertain as to when he'll ever pitch again. Maybe he's great next year but Sheets has had a lot of maybes in his career and too many maybes haven't worked out in Queens lately. And, of course, signing none of the above would have just pushed the Livan/Niese/Nieve/Redding alternatives to the 5th, 4th, 3rd slot that much quicker and for that much longer. Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 02:19 PM Not that it matters now, but I was hoping at the time that Randy Wolf would get some consideration. He would have been cheaper than Perez and better than Redding. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 02:29 PM Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks. G-Fafif Jul 13 2009 02:37 PM If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 02:59 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 14 2009 12:47 PM Derek Lowe's up by 5 o'clock Derek Lowe's givin' it all he got Derek Lowe's job is six to nine but Derek Lowe's home by nine O five Derek Lowe helps to cook the steak Derek Lowe helps to wash the plates Derek Lowe puts the kids to bed Derek Lowe reads a book to them (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves Atlanta so Derek Lowe loves to wind and throw Derek Lowe's pitch has great command But Derek Lowe don't make no demands Derek Lowe's always back in time Derek Lowe's not the injured kind Derek Lowe's full of compliment Derek Lowe's such a gentleman (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Cause I'm free Free of any control pitcher qualities Thank God I'm free Cos it's hard enough for me To take care of me, oh-oh Derek Lowe's carryin' a heavy load but Derek Lowe never really ever moans Derek Lowe's such a healthy guy But Derek Lowe let's the others try Derek Lowe's got ideas and plans Derek Lowe's what you call a real man Derek Lowe always will provide 'Cuz Derek Lowe is the family type (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) 'Cause I'm free Free as an ex-Pirate pitching now in NYC Thank God I'm free Driftin' all around just like a tumbleweed, oh-oh Maybe I need a coach Someone who won't reproach Maybe an older fan base Will tolerate me Maybe that organization A kinder Metly nation Maybe the perfect situation To satisfy me Derek Lowe keeps his body clean Derek Lowe don't use nicotine Derek Lowe don't drink alcohol Derek Lowe use no drugs at all Derek Lowe don't eat any sweet Derek Lowe don't eat piggie's feet Derek Lowe's frame is mighty strong Derek Lowe make love hard and long (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves the ladies so Derek Lowe walks 'em to the sto' Derek Lowe likes to hold their hands Derek Lowe's proud to understand Derek Lowe stands for decency Derek Lowe means formality Derek Lowe's the epitome Derek Lowe stands for quality Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:16 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":303i3b2c]Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.[/quote:303i3b2c] That's because ALL the metrics tell you Francoeur sucks. (Offensive WAR-related metrics ARE a bit more foolproof than pitching... and EVERYTHING'S a lot more reliable than even the best stabs at defensive measurement... at least until that crazy new robot defense metric happens. Funny thing, though, innit-- even among statheads, offense comes first.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:18 PM ="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem. Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp] ="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="metirish":1bzocfjg] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1bzocfjg]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:1bzocfjg] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too.[/quote:1bzocfjg] Considering that he spends the previous 16 column inches trashing the judgement of virtually all "Mets insiders" in decision-making roles, I think Rubin's pretty clearly making an implicit argument there. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:31 AM ]What Minaya almost undoubtedly seems to have done-- if you don't take the cynical view that this was a trade-for-trade's-sake situation-- is that he's made a scout's-mindset trade. One could also argue that some of his worst acquisitions-- Perez, e.g.-- seem to occur when he lets this mindset predominate. Sorry about quoting myself, but I posted this in the "Church-Francoeur" semantics debate, and it kinda got lost in the shuffle. I've seen this echoed in a few places this morning-- that Rubin piece from yesterday being one-- and wondered what the heads here thought. I also wonder whether Minaya's made a basic mistake of a first-time or otherwise inexperienced manager-- surrounding himself with folk with whom he has history/who are "on board" with what he's doing, rather than folk whose skills and talents complement his own (i.e., stat analysis folk who can offer counterpoint when discussing player evaluations). Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:41 AM Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez-Hernandez-for-Nady trade is probably on the negative side of the ledger, but I don't think it's close to the worst. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 11:43 AM I don't get the impression it's all very complicated with Omar. He swapped one flawed asset for another and perhaps in his estimation, a RH-hitting flawed guy was better than LH hitting flawed guy. I think he also believes in the value of new scenery. As has been remarked elsewhere, Church and Francoeur both could be nontendered this offseason, so what;s so bad about a 3-month gamble. Finally I think when in doubt Omar errs toward "talent" -- "show me talent and I'll show you on-base percentage" as he says. And he certainly believes Francoeur has "talent." Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:50 AM Edgy DC likes this. metirish Jul 13 2009 11:51 AM " something needed to be done" is what I have been hearing and reading in various forms since the trade. I may even have uttered it myself. Ron Darling has said it three times that I heard , as have a few other talking heads on SNY. I think Cohen took that view too. Not a way I want the team I support to be run but at least he didn't wake up and trade away a Grade A prospect for a middle of the road talent. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:59 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"] ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Should've been clearer-- the Perez trade was a decent move (in conception, at least) to fill both an immediate need and a looming one. The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) And I think the exact wrong time to make a move is when "we have to make a move." Desperation is a stinky cologne. Frayed Knot Jul 13 2009 02:08 PM ]The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) In fairness to the Ollie signing -- which certainly looks like shit at the moment seeing as how he's missed over half of this half-season -- I'd take what he gave us for the last two complete seasons: 63 starts; 371 IP; 320 Hits; 354 Ks; ~3.90 ERA; ~1.35 WHiP and had no problem thinking that he could more or less continue along those lines for 3 more at his age. You wanna haggle about the price go ahead but I'm not sure he could have been had for much less. As for Lowe he's certainly doing OK in 2009 (although a higher ERA & WHiP than the Ollie stats above) but neither he nor Ollie was going to be a one-year commitment (in which case I would have preferred Lowe too) and are we really going to now get on Omar's case for NOT signing a 36 y/o pitcher to a long-term contract? I think I've brought this up before but Lowe was older, more expensive, a longer commitment, and not as good a track record as compared to Glavine at the time of his NYM signing. Yet we all seem to know now that TG was a mistake all along while DL was the way to go. Sheets, meanwhile, isn't pitching because he physically can't pitch and it seems uncertain as to when he'll ever pitch again. Maybe he's great next year but Sheets has had a lot of maybes in his career and too many maybes haven't worked out in Queens lately. And, of course, signing none of the above would have just pushed the Livan/Niese/Nieve/Redding alternatives to the 5th, 4th, 3rd slot that much quicker and for that much longer. Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 02:19 PM Not that it matters now, but I was hoping at the time that Randy Wolf would get some consideration. He would have been cheaper than Perez and better than Redding. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 02:29 PM Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks. G-Fafif Jul 13 2009 02:37 PM If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 02:59 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 14 2009 12:47 PM Derek Lowe's up by 5 o'clock Derek Lowe's givin' it all he got Derek Lowe's job is six to nine but Derek Lowe's home by nine O five Derek Lowe helps to cook the steak Derek Lowe helps to wash the plates Derek Lowe puts the kids to bed Derek Lowe reads a book to them (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves Atlanta so Derek Lowe loves to wind and throw Derek Lowe's pitch has great command But Derek Lowe don't make no demands Derek Lowe's always back in time Derek Lowe's not the injured kind Derek Lowe's full of compliment Derek Lowe's such a gentleman (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Cause I'm free Free of any control pitcher qualities Thank God I'm free Cos it's hard enough for me To take care of me, oh-oh Derek Lowe's carryin' a heavy load but Derek Lowe never really ever moans Derek Lowe's such a healthy guy But Derek Lowe let's the others try Derek Lowe's got ideas and plans Derek Lowe's what you call a real man Derek Lowe always will provide 'Cuz Derek Lowe is the family type (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) 'Cause I'm free Free as an ex-Pirate pitching now in NYC Thank God I'm free Driftin' all around just like a tumbleweed, oh-oh Maybe I need a coach Someone who won't reproach Maybe an older fan base Will tolerate me Maybe that organization A kinder Metly nation Maybe the perfect situation To satisfy me Derek Lowe keeps his body clean Derek Lowe don't use nicotine Derek Lowe don't drink alcohol Derek Lowe use no drugs at all Derek Lowe don't eat any sweet Derek Lowe don't eat piggie's feet Derek Lowe's frame is mighty strong Derek Lowe make love hard and long (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves the ladies so Derek Lowe walks 'em to the sto' Derek Lowe likes to hold their hands Derek Lowe's proud to understand Derek Lowe stands for decency Derek Lowe means formality Derek Lowe's the epitome Derek Lowe stands for quality Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:16 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":303i3b2c]Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.[/quote:303i3b2c] That's because ALL the metrics tell you Francoeur sucks. (Offensive WAR-related metrics ARE a bit more foolproof than pitching... and EVERYTHING'S a lot more reliable than even the best stabs at defensive measurement... at least until that crazy new robot defense metric happens. Funny thing, though, innit-- even among statheads, offense comes first.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:18 PM ="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem. Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp] ="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

]What Minaya almost undoubtedly seems to have done-- if you don't take the cynical view that this was a trade-for-trade's-sake situation-- is that he's made a scout's-mindset trade. One could also argue that some of his worst acquisitions-- Perez, e.g.-- seem to occur when he lets this mindset predominate.

Sorry about quoting myself, but I posted this in the "Church-Francoeur" semantics debate, and it kinda got lost in the shuffle.

I've seen this echoed in a few places this morning-- that Rubin piece from yesterday being one-- and wondered what the heads here thought.

I also wonder whether Minaya's made a basic mistake of a first-time or otherwise inexperienced manager-- surrounding himself with folk with whom he has history/who are "on board" with what he's doing, rather than folk whose skills and talents complement his own (i.e., stat analysis folk who can offer counterpoint when discussing player evaluations).

[Guest Edgy DC]

Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions?

Perez-Hernandez-for-Nady trade is probably on the negative side of the ledger, but I don't think it's close to the worst.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't get the impression it's all very complicated with Omar.

He swapped one flawed asset for another and perhaps in his estimation, a RH-hitting flawed guy was better than LH hitting flawed guy. I think he also believes in the value of new scenery. As has been remarked elsewhere, Church and Francoeur both could be nontendered this offseason, so what;s so bad about a 3-month gamble.

Finally I think when in doubt Omar errs toward "talent" -- "show me talent and I'll show you on-base percentage" as he says. And he certainly believes Francoeur has "talent."

[Benjamin Grimm]

="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions?

Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Edgy DC likes this.

[metirish]

" something needed to be done" is what I have been hearing and reading in various forms since the trade. I may even have uttered it myself.

Ron Darling has said it three times that I heard , as have a few other talking heads on SNY. I think Cohen took that view too.


Not a way I want the team I support to be run but at least he didn't wake up and trade away a Grade A prospect for a middle of the road talent.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Benjamin Grimm"] ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad.

Should've been clearer-- the Perez trade was a decent move (in conception, at least) to fill both an immediate need and a looming one. The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.)

And I think the exact wrong time to make a move is when "we have to make a move." Desperation is a stinky cologne.

[Frayed Knot]

]The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.)

In fairness to the Ollie signing -- which certainly looks like shit at the moment seeing as how he's missed over half of this half-season -- I'd take what he gave us for the last two complete seasons:
63 starts; 371 IP; 320 Hits; 354 Ks; ~3.90 ERA; ~1.35 WHiP
and had no problem thinking that he could more or less continue along those lines for 3 more at his age. You wanna haggle about the price go ahead but I'm not sure he could have been had for much less.

As for Lowe he's certainly doing OK in 2009 (although a higher ERA & WHiP than the Ollie stats above) but neither he nor Ollie was going to be a one-year commitment (in which case I would have preferred Lowe too) and are we really going to now get on Omar's case for NOT signing a 36 y/o pitcher to a long-term contract? I think I've brought this up before but Lowe was older, more expensive, a longer commitment, and not as good a track record as compared to Glavine at the time of his NYM signing. Yet we all seem to know now that TG was a mistake all along while DL was the way to go.

Sheets, meanwhile, isn't pitching because he physically can't pitch and it seems uncertain as to when he'll ever pitch again. Maybe he's great next year but Sheets has had a lot of maybes in his career and too many maybes haven't worked out in Queens lately.

And, of course, signing none of the above would have just pushed the Livan/Niese/Nieve/Redding alternatives to the 5th, 4th, 3rd slot that much quicker and for that much longer.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Not that it matters now, but I was hoping at the time that Randy Wolf would get some consideration.

He would have been cheaper than Perez and better than Redding.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.

[G-Fafif]

If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Derek Lowe's up by 5 o'clock
Derek Lowe's givin' it all he got
Derek Lowe's job is six to nine but
Derek Lowe's home by nine O five
Derek Lowe helps to cook the steak
Derek Lowe helps to wash the plates
Derek Lowe puts the kids to bed
Derek Lowe reads a book to them

(Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?)

Derek Lowe loves Atlanta so
Derek Lowe loves to wind and throw
Derek Lowe's pitch has great command
But Derek Lowe don't make no demands
Derek Lowe's always back in time
Derek Lowe's not the injured kind
Derek Lowe's full of compliment
Derek Lowe's such a gentleman

(Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?)
Cause I'm free
Free of any control pitcher qualities
Thank God I'm free
Cos it's hard enough for me
To take care of me, oh-oh

Derek Lowe's carryin' a heavy load but
Derek Lowe never really ever moans
Derek Lowe's such a healthy guy
But Derek Lowe let's the others try
Derek Lowe's got ideas and plans
Derek Lowe's what you call a real man
Derek Lowe always will provide
'Cuz Derek Lowe is the family type

(Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?)
'Cause I'm free
Free as an ex-Pirate pitching now in NYC
Thank God I'm free
Driftin' all around just like a tumbleweed, oh-oh

Maybe I need a coach
Someone who won't reproach
Maybe an older fan base
Will tolerate me
Maybe that organization
A kinder Metly nation
Maybe the perfect situation
To satisfy me

Derek Lowe keeps his body clean
Derek Lowe don't use nicotine
Derek Lowe don't drink alcohol
Derek Lowe use no drugs at all
Derek Lowe don't eat any sweet
Derek Lowe don't eat piggie's feet
Derek Lowe's frame is mighty strong
Derek Lowe make love hard and long

(Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?)

Derek Lowe loves the ladies so
Derek Lowe walks 'em to the sto'
Derek Lowe likes to hold their hands
Derek Lowe's proud to understand
Derek Lowe stands for decency
Derek Lowe means formality
Derek Lowe's the epitome
Derek Lowe stands for quality

Derek Lowe

Derek Lowe

Derek Lowe

Derek Lowe

Edited July 13, 2009 by Guest

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket":303i3b2c]Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.[/quote:303i3b2c] That's because ALL the metrics tell you Francoeur sucks. (Offensive WAR-related metrics ARE a bit more foolproof than pitching... and EVERYTHING'S a lot more reliable than even the best stabs at defensive measurement... at least until that crazy new robot defense metric happens. Funny thing, though, innit-- even among statheads, offense comes first.)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:18 PM

="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem. Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp] ="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.

Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM

I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp] ="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

[Guest Triple Dee]

I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.*

* I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp] ="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.