When will Willie be fired?

[Benjamin Grimm]

When will Willie be fired?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Put me down for June.

[MFS62]

I voted for July.

But the option I would have voted for is "not soon enough".

Later

[metirish]

July , right before the All-Star break.

[Batty31]

Irish, I was thinking the same thing before I even saw your post. I say if not before the All Star break, then right after.

[G-Fafif]

I voted June since I figure the Mets will give him, in the spirit of Joe Frazier, through Memorial Day, but will then be sensitive/paranoid enough to let Joe Torre get out of town on June 1.

I'm with MFS62, however, on when I want him fired.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I took 'after the season' -- I'm the only one so far -- and it assumes that
the Mets will not be successful in 2008. I don't assume that.

a) I don't think the Mets will fall out of contention by June or July. C'mon --
you Marlin lovers step away from the empty paint thinner cans.

I think the Mets are so conscientious of making it look like they know what
they're doing (even when they may not) that firing Willie in mid-season would
be an admission of a mistake to some (not saying he was).

c) If the last game at Shea is indeed a regular season game, then cutting bait
with Willie in November and bringing in a marquee manager to usher in the
new era of CitiField (or some Mets oriented historical figure) will be easier
than doing it during the season and having him waddle through the rest of
2008 and taking all the heat after last year. They'll let Willie take it, and I
don't think they'd saddle Hojo or someone with it to hold us over.

All that being said, I think ya'll need a major injection of LETS GO METS!!!

[metirish]

We're fucked if KC is the optomistic one ...........lets go mets...

[MFS62]

Oh, .... OK.
Lets Go Mets!

Later

[Guest d'Kong76]

I'm historically more optimistic than your average bear, you've only been
around during more down times than up times I think. I've just voiced it
less and less after realizing the fodder it gives to some types and I've also
tried to be more objective.

I'll never think a season is over on May 1st. Nine unearned runs ain't Willie's
fault nor is when the whole lineup takes the day off from bringing the wood.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think the Mets really want Willie to succeed and KC makes a good point... they prolly won't whack him until they're safely out of it so my vote of June is optimistically pessimistic.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm gonna do a lot of agreeing here .... with MFS62 and G-Fafif on the not soon enough comments. And with KC on his observation that maybe, the Mets have to fall out of contention for the axe to fall on Willie in mid-season.

Does anyone think Willie gets fired during this season with the Mets reasonably in contention? I'd like to hope it can happen. But what has to happen for that to happen?

[metirish]

You know I was only having fun KC , is it enough for the Mets to be in contention in a weak division? , keep playing the way they are and stay a few games out or even be a game ahead , of course it is and I don't think Jeff and Fred are that way inclined to dump a guy when the team are in it , still they are playing some terrible baseball.

[Benjamin Grimm]

In starting this poll, I wasn't saying that Willie should be fired because of today's blowout.

But everyone here knows that there are better managers to be had. Sooner or later the Mets will realize that too. I'm just trying to get a temperature check on when we think that might happen.

[G-Fafif]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Does anyone think Willie gets fired during this season with the Mets reasonably in contention? I'd like to hope it can happen. But what has to happen for that to happen?

Ownership seems uberconscious of image. Until lately I thought they'd never consider offing Willie or Omar en route to Citi Field because they'd like to be stable or at least take on the appearance of stability. But if the first month is indicative of the team's performance, a little over .500, hanging in there in a so-so division, and if the play is lethargic (injuries notwithstanding), I can't see them hearing the FAN and reading the back pages and not getting itchy. Willie, right or wrong, will be judged as much on last year as this year. If he's doing his zen master thing and the Mets aren't producing any more than they did in the last four months of '07 (I think returning him was his get-out-of-jail-free card, as in "hey, collapses happen, he won a division last year"), there will be consequences.

Since the one-third mark of 2007, the Mets are a .500 ballclub, exactly: 67-67. That's five-sixths of a season, a pretty large sample. They have not lived up to their payroll at all. They have a new toy and he can only pitch every five days and he's not rubbing off on anybody else or sparking anybody or doing more than, well, pitching every five days. Santana's fine, but he didn't raise the offense or the hustle or the general competence of his teammates. That's not his fault. The miasma that has overtaken the team more days and nights than not may not be anybody's fault except those who might be judged to have underperformed. And who generally receives the blame for circumstances like those?

The manager. The manager is supposed to be the team leader (isn't that what David always says when asked about being the captain of the future?). The manager is supposed to set the tone. Whatever tone is being set isn't really sounding a great note. Perhaps it will in May. Perhaps a little calm and a little patience is what this team needs. I have a hunch it isn't and I have a hunch that Willie will be the fall guy...before fall.

[Guest d'Kong76]

20 votes in a poll here in four hours is pretty good otherwise I'd apologize
for hijacking it a little, BG.

[Frayed Knot]

"But everyone here knows that there are better managers to be had"

And available in mid-season?
Who leaps to mind?

[Guest El Segundo Escupidor]

Frayed Knot wrote: "But everyone here knows that there are better managers to be had" And available in mid-season? Who leaps to mind?

Not only is there nobody else available mid-season, there is nobody coming off contract in the next year that would warrant serious consideration (and I'm sure most people here would prefer Willie to Grady Little or Larry Bowa) This, and the fact the NL East looks weak this year, leads me to believe, the Mets will perserve with Willie.

However, without looking at his current minor league management record, John Stearns is the type of guy that could light a fire under this team. Failing that, what about Howard Johnson? Admittedly both these guys are rookies at the ML level, but no more than Willie was when he took over.

[Frayed Knot]

Not only is there nobody else available mid-season, there is nobody coming off contract in the next year that would warrant serious consideration ... John Stearns is the type of guy that could lit a fire under this team. Failing that, what about Howard Johnson? Admittedly both these guys are rookies at the ML level, but no more than Willie was when he took over.

Which was pretty much my point.
I'm certainly not in love with Willie and would be willing to consider almost any angle. But at times I think the focus on the mgr simply as an outlet for frustration takes over to the point where I wonder if we'd making a change with a definite upgrade in mind or just changing for change sake and hoping for a boost in a wishful 'backup QB/Grass-is-Greener' kind of way.

[Guest AG/DC]

Stearns has headed minor league teams. HoJo hasn't. (Not that Willie ever did.)

Consensus seems to be that, if he survives July, he survives the season.

After the season, there's always the chance that Bobby Valentine or Davey Johnson get an offer they can't refuse (however ill-advised) from a desperate Wilpon family, or a desperate Minaya, if he survives Willlie.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I acknowledge that finding an in-season replacement can be difficult, unless you promote from within the organization. (Jerry Manuel and Nick Leyva are two that I can think of who have managerial experience, but I'm not advocating for either of them.)

Bobby Valentine, for both of his big league jobs, was an in-season replacement. With the Mets, he was promoted from Tidewater to replace Dallas Green.

He was also hired away from the Mets (where he was their third base coach) in 1985 by Texas. I don't remember how they pulled that off. Did they ask the Mets for permission, and interview Bobby, before they fired Doug Rader?

Generally speaking, I would think that if Willie were fired during the season, he'd either be replaced by a permanent or interim manager from within the organization, or an interim would be appointed to hold the fort while the Mets looked both inside and outside for a replacement.

And while I don't think this has happened yet, if Willie were to convincingly "lose" the club, like Bud Harrelson even admitted doing as revealed by Marty Noble in his MBTN interview, then I think he has to go right away. Even if the Mets are still within reach of a playoff spot at that point. Especially if the Mets are still within reach.

I don't know what's going to happen, but I do suspect that Willie's days are numbered. I don't think Citi Field is much of a consideration either. I think what the Mets want more than anything for the Citi Field opener is the chance to raise a championship flag on Opening Day. And if they think they have a better shot at that with someone other than Willie Randolph in the dugout, then they'll make a move.

[Guest AG/DC]

Being promoted from Tidewater (as Johnson and Valentine were) is a different situation. They were both managers in waiting and were both familiar with the personnel they wanted to build their team on. Do you want Ken Oberkfell? There's certainly an argument for him.

[Theoldmole]

I would assume Oberkfell, by all accounts a strong managerial prospect, would be the replacement, but I'm for keeping Willie.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I might be okay with Oberkfell. I don't know much about him. As I've said before, I want a smart guy to be the manager. (I consider the Mets to have had two smart managers, and they're my two favorites: Davey Johnson and Bobby Valentine. Is Oberkfell smart? I have no idea. Are there many smart guys to choose from? Again, I really don't know.)


Some possible candidates from within the Mets organization:

Ken Oberkfell
Manager in New Orleans. In his fourth year as a AAA manager. Has also managed one year a AA (Binghamton) in 2004. Managed St. Lucie in 2002 and 2003, Capital City in 2001. Managed at Single A in the Phillies organization from 1997 through 2000.

Tim Teufel
Managing the St. Lucie Mets, and losing a lot of games. Managed in Savannah last year, St. Lucie in 2004 and 2005, Brooklyn in 2003. (I don't know where he was in 2006.)

Edgar Alfonzo
Managed Brooklyn in 2007 and will be there again in 2008. Also managed the Cylones in 2001. In between he was coaching in St. Lucie and Binghamton. Also managed Kingsport, in 2000.

Nick Leyva
Manager of the Kingsport Mets this year. Had a losing record as the Phillies manager from 1989 through 1991.

Tom Nieto
Named Baseball America's best managerial prospect (1997). Has seven years of managing experience at the Single A level in various organizations. (None with the Mets.)

Jerry Manuel
Managed the White Sox from 1998 through 2003. (Record of 500-471.) Al Manager of the Year in 2000. Bench coach for the 1997 Marlins. Six years as a third base coach in Montreal.

Howard Johnson
Managed the Cyclones in 2002. Four seasons as a minor league hitting instructor in the Mets organization. (St. Lucie, Binghamton, Norfolk.)

Sandy Alomar Sr.
Many years as a major league coach. Interim manager for Iowa (AAA) in 1991 and Williamsport (A) in 1994. Has also served as a manager in the Puerto Rican winter leagues. (Manager of the Year in 1986 and 1993.)

[Guest El Segundo Escupidor]

AG/DC wrote: After the season, there's always the chance that Bobby Valentine or Davey Johnson get an offer they can't refuse (however ill-advised) from a desperate Wilpon family, or a desperate Minaya, if he survives Willlie.

I like Davey Johnson, and I'd welcome him back with open arms. The Genius is a different proposition. While I don't dispute he can be a sound baseball manager, there is a view the Mets missed out on FAs during his reign because players didn't want to deal with his personality.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Triple Dee wrote: The Genius is a different proposition. While I don't dispute he can be a sound baseball manager, there is a view the Mets missed out on FAs during his reign because players didn't want to deal with his personality.

Yeah. Re-hiring Valentine means the Mets can never re-sign Cliff Floyd.

[Guest AG/DC]

Triple Dee wrote: AG/DC wrote: After the season, there's always the chance that Bobby Valentine or Davey Johnson get an offer they can't refuse (however ill-advised) from a desperate Wilpon family, or a desperate Minaya, if he survives Willlie. I like Davey Johnson, and I'd welcome him back with open arms. The Genius is a different proposition. While I don't dispute he can be a sound baseball manager, there is a view the Mets missed out on FAs during his reign because players didn't want to deal with his personality.

There is a view? To whom are you referring?

And who calls him "the Genius"?

[metirish]

Yeah IIRC some of those players when pressed took back comments made about not coming here if Bobby was still manager.....I think Floyd said it then changed his mind and Glavine hinted at it but then said he had no problem with V.


Did I forget Mike Stanton said it also?

[Guest El Segundo Escupidor]

AG/DC wrote: And who calls him "the Genius"?

My apologies, it's an epithet used on another Mets forum I posted to once upon a time. I wasn't aware it wasn't universal. (The other epithet that was used was "Wile E.").

[Benjamin Grimm]

With 30 votes in, half of us think that Willie will be fired before the season ends, and two thirds of us think that he'll be gone before Opening Day 2009.