I woke up in like this morning

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: Personally, I'll take a player smart enough to get the out without reckless rough stuff

Sounds like you're implying Lo Duca is dumb. [Just imagine I'm doing a lot of very funny stuff, mimicing your defense of Mikey, in a mock-outraged defense of Lo Duca's intelligence here. Imagine it goes on and on and gets all tedious and pointless eventually, and I make up shit you never said just for fun.]

Hey, when you said that I owe my being allowed to post here to you, did that mean that Edgy wants to ban me? Can we see the secret transcripts of your conversations (that don't exist, of course) about banning me from this site? Or did you mean something else? Sometimes it's hard to decipher your posts since they lack that quality known to most as "comprehensibilty" and known to you as "manipulative use of the English language." I could try using French, if that will help. My Spanish is kind of rusty.

If I get banned, could you slap a banner across the front page explaining how you don't want any criticism of the Mets players or organization being brought up here, though? That will scare off future Met-haters and manipulators of any Indo-European language.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

soupcan wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]"]Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? A guy has to win a gold glove to be considered 'above average'?

Of course not. But Lo Duca is, I don;t know, the fourth or fifth best defesnive catcher in the league. No prayer of winning a Gold Glove or anything, but he's clearly better than average. If there weren';t a huge difference between LoDuca and Piazaz defensively, it wouldn't make a shred of sense to dump Piazza, who's clearly still better offensively than Lo Duca. But even the Mets, who've twisted themselves into pretzels excusing Piazza's defense, couldn;t do that. Does that tell you nothing?

Proof isn;t forthcoming from either side in this discussion, which should be a comfort to those committed to hanging on to their opinions. Mets who actually say damaging things about ex-teammates, or the organization (see Mientkiewicz) are characterized as malcontents with agendas, so "proof" tend to be taken as meaningless by those who prefer to do so. If I somehow got Glavine to say damaging stuff about Piazza, you'd find some way to spin it as irrelevant or misquoted or kidding around because you don't want to accept it.

That's cool. Think what you like. I don;'t have to agree with it, do I? You're the guy who never saw Piazza shy away from contact at home plate--if you don;t believe your eyes, or don't believe KC's claim to prefer catchers who through their supreme intelligence avoid risking injury, what could my words possibly tell you?

[Zvon]

KC wrote: Mind your own business, 'von.

lmao,....okeedoke.

[Elster88]

="Bret Sabermetric"] ="Elster88"]Like I said, I don't want to get into it again. My question remains: Why bring it up again? Your feelings are well known. I certainly wasn;t going to make it into a Piazza thread,

Yes you did.

="Bret Sabermetric"]which wasn't even the main point of my post about Lo Duca.

Yes it was.

]you;ve said your piece about 1000 times already and you haven';t introduced a shred of evidence to back it up, so it gets tiresome.

As opposed to your hard evidence: "read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense". This is what you call evidence?

A second point: What I say is tiresome???? Are you insane?


____________________________


Seriously what was the point of your first post? You said this

>>"You beginnning to appreciate the advantages of having a catcher who plays gritty, competitive defense without a care for contact? Sometimes having that quality might win a game or two for you."

So were you really wondering if JD was just now learning how to appreciate "gritty, competitive defense"?
No, you were taking a shot at Piazza. To argue otherwise is to be full of shit. Are you full of shit? If you aren't, then congratulations on fooling 95% of the people here into thinking you are.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Piazza was implied. To cite Lo Duca for knowing what he was doing behind the dish without acknowledging that such knowledge was lacking for the last few years would be hypocritical, and blind.

Which would be perfectly consistent with the rah-rah crap around this place. When you have an awkward unskilled catcher in a Mets uni, go on about how defense is overrated and our guy is pretty damned good anyway because it's hard to prove that he sucks though everyone can see it with their own lying eyes. But when you get a skilled catcher in a Mets uni, suddenly you're full of praise for his defensive skills, the ones that werent important, and were hard to see, and harder to measure, and unprovable in the past.

Hey, if you want to root for the friggen laundry, be my guest. But let me out that such analysis is heavily biased towards the laundry and isn;t really saying much about the baseball player wearing it. Are you saying much besides "I like the Mets' catcher, whatever his name is, and will find something to praise"? Is this really worth reading? If you can recognize that Lo Duca is a good catcher, you have to recognize that Piazza is a bad one, if you're being remotely honest, or analytical, or objective, three qualities I don;t see much of here.

We all saw the HRs and the doubles and oohed and ahhed. But I also saw the arm's length tags at home plate for years and years, that let dozens (maybe hundreds) of opposing runners score who might have been tagged out. God only knows how many pitchers would have thrown better if Piazza's personality had been one inclined to challenge them. He was soft, and I think it cost the team a lot. He conned people into valuing him way above his actual contribution, which is still going on today.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I shouldn't do this, but like Soup says, what the hell?

Here's data for you, Sal. You may have seen most or all of this in the past--I'm not sure what I've seen on CPF or what I've found elsewhere.

Basestealing
Piazza sucks. He cost us 18 runs between 1998 & 2001. I'm sure he's declined since then.

Calling games
This study is from 2000. Basically, it finds that "catchers do not have significant differences among their game-calling abilities." Now, lest someone call that a cop-out, Piazza led the league in CERA (the metric they designed to measure the ability of play-calling) in 2006, and did NOT crack their bottom 10 Career Catchers--although he also didn't crack their top 10 Career Catchers.

Basically, if there's an ability to call games, Piazza's probably in the middle third according to this study.

Blocking balls
According to this study from HT, he was neither in the top 10 nor the bottom 10 in 2005. Again, call it the middle third.

If anyone's got any other articles to point to, I'd be interested.

I should reference some of the other BP findings, which basically call the defensive impact of a catcher negligible:

]However, if we believe the results from this study, namely that catchers do not have significant differences among their game-calling abilities, the implications are staggering. First of all, the much-maligned stats we’ve been using for years to evaluate catchers--runners thrown out and passed balls, might actually quantify their defensive value. Furthermore, the relative unimportance of the running game could prompt teams to shift better offensive players to catcher without hurting the team’s defense. You open up another position on the field besides first base for prospects who don’t have the reflexes to play the infield, nor the speed or instincts to play the outfield. The positional is still physically demanding to play, but you could potential keep two dynamite offensive players in the lineup--say Mike Piazza and Frank Thomas, but swapping them between C and 1B so neither gets overworked behind the plate. Far from being the position with the lowest expected offense, it could flip to the other side of the defensive spectrum entirely, and become a place to hide a slow-footed slugger.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

If that's true of course the Mets are doing themselves damage wasting a lineup spot (in the #2 hole) on a guy whose main talent is while wearing a mask. And the Mets used to kill themselves by starting Jerry Grote all those years, who couldn't hit a lick. Basically if catcher's D is really meaningless, then managers have been playing the game wrong for 100 years.

Bill James's WIN SHARES rated Piazza at a C+ through 2000--I think it's safe to say he got worse, much worse, after 2000 and C+ isn't very good to begin with..

[Guest martin]

ouch, that was a tough read.

[Guest KC]

>>>>Sounds like you're implying Lo Duca is dumb. [Just imagine I'm doing a lot of very funny stuff, mimicing your defense of Mikey, in a mock-outraged defense of Lo Duca's intelligence here. Imagine it goes on and on and gets all tedious and pointless eventually, and I make up shit you never said just for fun.<<<<

No, I mean that wreckless abandonment is foolish and I didn't say Lo was
being wreckless in this instance. Word twister.

>>>>Hey, when you said that I owe my being allowed to post here to you, did that mean that Edgy wants to ban me? Can we see the secret transcripts of your conversations (that don't exist, of course) about banning me from this site? Or did you mean something else? Sometimes it's hard to decipher your posts since they lack that quality known to most as "comprehensibilty" and known to you as "manipulative use of the English language." I could try using French, if that will help. My Spanish is kind of rusty.<<<<

I've gotten about a dozen requests for you be banned. Some subtle ones and
all the way to nuke the bastard off the board NOW!!! . You're really Edgy obsessed
this week.

>>>>If I get banned, could you slap a banner across the front page explaining how you don't want any criticism of the Mets players or organization being brought up here, though? That will scare off future Met-haters and manipulators of any Indo-European language.<<<

There will be no banning or banners, although you deserve a caustic fucktard
plaque somewhere on the site for sure.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: No, I mean that wreckless abandonment is foolish and I didn't say Lo was being wreckless in this instance. Word twister.

Oh, so you were just saying that deliberately risking injury with no possible gain is dumb baseball. Radical thinking. I'll have to reconsider my proposed rule-change, mandating that each player must carry a plugged-in electric saw or welding tool on the field at all times.

So why DID you bring it up in this instance where we were discussing Lo Duca's play at the plate? Just one of those random Tourette's things that happens to you now and then? Sorry to jump to the conclusion that you intended to imply that a catcher who courts contact is being reckless. (Note spelling. If you're reckless you're probably not wreckless. Talk about twisting words to mean their opposite.)

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: I've gotten about a dozen requests for you be banned. Some subtle ones and all the way to nuke the bastard off the board NOW!!! .

Oh, that. I get that all the time, right on this board. Cooby's made that argument, I think, and ABG's tried making it for sure. Who are the other tattletales, I wonder. "Oh, KC, how you suffer at that base ruffian's vile hands! This mockery cannot go on. In the name of all that's good and holy and Metly, send him to the outer darkness so we can have conversations about the Mets wtihout all those horrible reminders of the real world. We can't be bullied by him any longer--he makes fun of us for saying stupid shit, and I insist on my right to say all the stupid shit I want to without challenge or question. He also reminds us of stupid shit we've said in the past that never came anywhere near reality--I hate this man and demand that he be silenced immediately. Let's make the CPF a place where we all agree that stupid shit must be tolerated, in the name of freedom and justice and brotherhood. Ban him! Ban him NOW!! Ban him yesterday, and make his posts all disappear, and let us do our happy dance around the bonfire of his despised memory, please, KC, please, please, please..."

Have I captured the spirit of these requests?

Get over yourselves. If I can't comment on Lo Duca's improved D over Piazza in his first Met game without a firestorm of defensiveness erupting, The CpF has gone around the bend for good.

I mean, what's next? We get a series of injuries to our starting rotation, giving fulltime starting jobs to Bannister, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber and Maine who go on to HOF careers and I get blasted for pointing out how the Mets got forced to introduce some youth into their plans unwillingly and didnt that work out well? Every smart move the Mets make, and I'm willing to point them out, implies some cluelessness if they had resisted making that move for years and years, Piazza being a perfect example. "We can';t deal Mike because we won't get full value for an MVP-type catcher." Well, no, you won;t get value if you insist that you need an MVP in exchange for Piazza at age 35, but this team would have improved if they'd shipped him out years ago and rebuilt the team. You';ve just experienced a half-decade of suckitude because the Mets tried to pawn off a WIN NOW team on you that needed a Back Up the Truck program.

David Wright has been the Mets' best offensive player for a year now, and Willie doesn't trust him to bear up under the pressure of the 3-hole. He's batting Hernandez in the 2-hole, he's committed to batting REYEs leadoff forever, no matter how low his OBP gets. He's giving away at-bats, IOW, based on very little outside of his stubborn stupidity, yet you guys refuse to see that tolerating Willie's ineptitude is just killing this team. The Mets have the core of a winning team finally but the organization and its fans are so tolerant of cluelessness, schmuckiness, poor baseball, posturing, and CYA as sound principles to follow that I think these will outweigh having some decent ballplayers.

[Guest KC]

>>>Have I captured the spirit of these requests?<<<

Not in the slightest.

You know what would be amusing (I don't have time to research it) is if we
found that Bret was against picking up LoDuca when it happened only to find
him wrapping him in swaddling clothes and laying him in the Gold Glove manger
and calling The Three Kings to come see him because he blocked the plate on
a play on opening day and dropped the ball but looked tough doing it a few months
later. I'm probably wrong though, as I am about everything.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: He's batting Hernandez in the 2-hole

Actually, he's batting mighty LoDuca in the 2-hole.

Do I cut to the quick of your argument or what?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Not sure where the quick is.

I forget where the idea of batting Hernandez came from, Willie himself or what (though that was his favored spot for Kaz and Cairo last year). it's a disadvantage to have a fairly dumb, very inexperienced bozo managing your team, especially when it's neither a last-place team, on which his mismanagement doesn't really matter, or a dominating power, on which maybe you can get away with a dropped card or two. The 2006 Mets are probably going to be in a pennant fight the first few months of the season at least, and the few games Willie's dumbth or his inexperience will cost you will really cost you. Batting Piazza in the middle of the order early last year probably cost a game or two, and was done for no other reason than conservatism, hopefulness, timidity, and pleasing the attendance, not good principles on which to base a managerial career.

I don't feel very well understood around here, which is partly my fault. I want Willie to do well, honestly, and I had hoped he would be that rara avis, a first-time manager who really knew how to manage, but he's showing only his limitations so far. I don';t see signs of improvement at all. Does anyone have a tangible reason to think he's getting better at this job?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Well, we're only one game into the new season, and I liked his choices of pitchers in that game. (He removed Glavine when I would have, and gave Heilman the two innings I requested in the IGT.) But that's no evidence that he's smarter; it's only one game. But hopefully he'll grow into the position, and sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure, but doesn't he have a new bench coach this season? I seem to think that Alomar and Manuel switched jobs. If so, that may help.

I wouldn't say I'm optimistic that Willie will become a better manager, but it's a possibility, and as I said, I'm hopeful that it will happen.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

="KCif we found that Bret was against picking up LoDuca when it happened .... I'm probably wrong though, as I am about everything.

I don;'t think I voiced an opinion one way or the other. Six of one. The thing I did like was Omar's strategy of not getting played by the FA catchers. I liked that move a lot, though not specifically Lo Duca, whom I didn'[t know that well.

But go ahead, paint this as another caustic fucktard move of mine. I don't mind. It's not like I expect a whole lot of even handedness.

[soupcan]

="Bret Sabermetric"] ="soupcan"] ="Bret Sabermetric"]"]Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? A guy has to win a gold glove to be considered 'above average'? Of course not.

Then if LoDuca is above average and better defensively than Piazza, then Piazza can be considered average.

="Bret Sabermetric"]But Lo Duca is, I don;t know, the fourth or fifth best defesnive catcher in the league. No prayer of winning a Gold Glove or anything, but he's clearly better than average. If there weren';t a huge difference between LoDuca and Piazaz defensively, it wouldn't make a shred of sense to dump Piazza, who's clearly still better offensively than Lo Duca. But even the Mets, who've twisted themselves into pretzels excusing Piazza's defense, couldn;t do that. Does that tell you nothing?

I addressed this in my previous post - .And why is it wrong to simply believe that the Mets didn't want to invest another year and $$$ in an aging catcher who seemed as if he was starting to break down physically? Perhaps they weighed their options and thought 'Yes Piazza is fine defensively and calls a satisfactory game but he is getting older and is getting hurt more. He's not as consistent a hitter and can't throw anybody out. His contract is up why don't we just let him go and start fresh?'

Do you want a rational debate or do you just want to keep posting the same things until I just simply agree? You make your points and I'm making mine, how about giving my opinions some thought as well? You're bitching and moaning that no one wants to simply debate the issue with you but you don't seem to want to read or take into consideration other people's points.

="Bret Sabermetric"]Proof isn;t forthcoming from either side in this discussion, which should be a comfort to those committed to hanging on to their opinions.

Including you..

="Bret Sabermetric"]Mets who actually say damaging things about ex-teammates, or the organization (see Mientkiewicz) are characterized as malcontents with agendas, so "proof" tend to be taken as meaningless by those who prefer to do so. If I somehow got Glavine to say damaging stuff about Piazza, you'd find some way to spin it as irrelevant or misquoted or kidding around because you don't want to accept it.

That's quite a large assumption you are making about me. You sure do like to assume things but get really upset when other people do.

="Bret Sabermetric"]That's cool. Think what you like. I don;'t have to agree with it, do I? You're the guy who never saw Piazza shy away from contact at home plate--if you don;t believe your eyes, or don't believe KC's claim to prefer catchers who through their supreme intelligence avoid risking injury, what could my words possibly tell you?

See, I didn't say that. What I said was that if there were an overabundance of Piazza's shying away from contact or passed balls I think I would've noticed. I didn't notice it.

Why is it so important to you that we all believe Piazza was a bad catcher? I think we would all agree that he was not gold glove caliber or even necessarilly above average. But why does it rankle you so much that the majority of Mets fans liked the guy and considerd him an adequate backstop?

You didn't? Great. I did.

[Guest KC]

BS: It's not like I expect a whole lot of even handedness.

And I don't expect you to change, play nice with others, or stop portraying your-
self as some kind of victim in this whole bizarre situation.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I don't see signs of improvement at all. Does anyone have a tangible reason to think he's getting better at this job?

Like Yance says, the way he managed the first game gave me a little hope, as did his decision to give Bannister a slot in the rotation. My biggest gripe last year was his use of pitchers, and if he's TRUELY made strides there, I'm pleased. I'd still rather have Bobby V., but what can you do? (Speaking of Bobby, on the Opening Day broadcast, Keith said Bobby should've won manager of the year in 2000, which surprised me a bit. For some reason, I thought Keith didn't like Bobby.)

And somewhat to my surprise, I'm less angry about LoDuca batting 2nd than I thought I'd be. I mean, I'd rather have Beltran there and LoDuca batting 7th, but if LoDuca gets on base at around his career .330 OBP clip, it's at least a significant improvement over last year--and far, far better than putting Hernandez there.

I'm also coming around to the whole "batting order is meaningless" argument, although the aesthetic of the batting order still appeals to me.

I'm far less convinced of the argument that contributions defensivly--at any position--are negligible, despite studies to the contrary. I'm fascinated by the idea of the Fielding Bible--I really need to pick up a copy of that.

Once I do, I'll post whatever they say about Piazza here--should be interesting.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

We’d been over the blocking the plate question a million times, and that’s certainly not what I intended to discuss in this thread – mine was a simple observation that I liked his presence of mind to have sold a tag he didn’t make.

That said:

1) You never showed Piazza blocked the plate any less than other catchers even though we agreed two years ago at that Met game that you’d need to in order to continue with a point of view this argument. How is that coming?

2) You also have yet to offer any proof that blocking and/or not blocking the plate is a conscious style choice that wouldn’t change from play to play, as I would guess, which might also be divined from from study before a conclusion is reached.

3) That LoDuca is probably better than Piazza defensively is certainly a nice thing, but hardly the only one, in a comparison. Most of what I’d read about LoDuca leads me to believe he’s average or a little below.

4) Your contention above that If he was even an average catcher, there would have been no reason at all for the Mets not to have signed him again this year overlooks that the Mets would have been prevented from re-signing him for something less than $10 million. That’s a pretty good reason, just to start. The well-documented declines in offensive production, his age, injuries, etc etc are other considerations. It’s not like they looked at fielding in the vacuum in which you’re framed this decision.

5) I get the impression that most observers would consider Piazza average were it not for throwing out baserunners, which gets back to your unfinished study of plate-blocking, passed-ball prevention and popup-catching (you may as well add relay-throw catching now that you have a start; LoDuca is 0-1). Kindly get to that before bringing this up again, not because I’m preparing to deny it but that I’ve watched more Mike Piazza catching than you (or Bill James for that matter) since 1998 and just don’t see a) A pattern of intentional avoidance of contact or That fact that it matters but in odd cases.

[Elster88]

Edit: FUCK IT

[MFS62]

I've stayed out of this so far. But

]Then if LoDuca is above average and better defensively than Piazza, then Piazza can be considered average.

This caught my eye. It is not necessarily true, from either a logic or mathematical standpoint.

Using a non-baseball example
I'm 6'1" tall
The average height of an American male is 5'10" tall.
So, I'm "taller than average"

I'm taller than Fred.
Fred is 5"7" tall.
He is not average.
Only if Fred were 5'10" tall would he be "average".

Later

[Elster88]

That's exactly the point of the text you quoted. It's not necessarily true, but it can be true. That's what the poster was trying to say.

[MFS62]

Elster88 wrote: That's exactly the point of the text you quoted. It's not necessarily true, but it can be true. That's what the poster was trying to say.

Yes.
I was using a non-baseball example to show that.
I didn't saythe person who said it was wrong.
(Oh, shit, I knew I should have stayed out of this. Just trying to be helpful.)

Later

[Elster88]

I was trying to be helpful too. I feel no anger.

[soupcan]

I understood Bret to be saying that LoDuca is 'average' because he is not a gold glove caliber catcher. Ergo, since Piazza is worse defensively than Piazza, Piazza is below average'

I was using his logic.

[Guest old original jb]

Since this thread has somehow been hijacked into a very tedious argument having something to do with what we all think about what KC and Bret Sabermetric are saying to each other and how they are saying it ( I literally could not bring myself to read even a fraction of any of the posts)

...could I ask Rotblatt to repost his very interesting bit on the true role of catcher's defense in another thread so it can be discussed away from all the clutter?

[Elster88]

It's been done.

New thread:

http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=2840

[Guest KC]

Sorry jb, stepping back from what goes on I'm actually embarrased to be
part of it.

I called a friend of mine last night. D'head, his name is Darrell but we call him
D'head because he's a dickhead. Always was, always will be - I've known
him forever and we've been friends with him since little league.

K: D'head, what up?
D: Yo
K: Watch Monday?
D: I saw it that night, whatya think I get cable in my truck asshole?
K: Dick
D: How was that box thing? Ant said he stopped by and you met Rusty. Is he still fat?
K: He ain't really fat, he's large. Awesome grip for a sixty-something year old man.
D: Yeah, my wife has a large ass - I say she's fat.
K: D'head, we argue a lot - how do we stay friends?
D: Cause ya know, I don't know, we both know we're assholes and never it no mind.
K: I guess. I argue with a friend on the internet a lot - gets ugly and pisses off our other friends.
D: Remember that time I lit your beard on fire at Liv's party and you knocked over a table full of drinks running around like an asshole?
K: I was on fire, dick.
D: You got over it though, it ain't like you don't do shit to me. Remem ...
K: Pretty much we keep it simple, no family jokes, no
D: No mama jokes, oh you ain't gotta a mama, she's dead
K: Dick
D: A don't you ever fuckin' call me condescending.
K: WHAT?
D: Condescending. You need to go look it up bozohead? I will rain down a shit storm on you like you've never seen if you ever did that. I'd rather you make fun of my children or my wifes large ass.
K: Wow
D: What?
K: Nothing
D: That internet shit is gonna rot your brain, you should start smoking weed again instead if you wanna rot your brain.
K: I gotta go.
D: See ya Saturday
K: Later

[Guest cooby]

Is 'Ant' one of those two Tonys?