Do you really own that bridge, Mr. Randolph? Honest?

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Did you happen to catch the articles saying that Matsui has the edge on the job, based on his performance in the open competition for the job this spring? If bad batting, lousy fielding, and a rotten recent MLB track record wins you jobs around Tradition Field, I'd say Boonie had a lock on the position.

Then you'd be wrong.

The idea that Boone was guaranteed a position on the Opening Day roster is ridiculous. I'd even say stupid.

[RealityChuck]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Yes, I often get worked up over displays of total incompetence and dishonesty that most CPFers find trivial or even examples of Metly virtue.

How is that total incompetence? How, in fact, is it incompetence at all? At worse, he made a minor mistake.

Randolph is still learning and makes mistakes. But jumping on him because of it is like saying David Wright should have been traded away last year because he made a few errors in the field.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You know what? It's actually benefical to the organization. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Try my time-honored test: if a Yankees' GM and manager pulled off such a schmucky operation, would you give them a pass? How about some neutral team?

You can state blithely that you'd hold the same exact opinion of it in that case, but then I'd have to add your name to my list of self-serving pathological liars (Willie, Fred, Nixon, Pete Rose. O.J.)--please don't make me do that.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I've lost track of what you're talking about.

Are you condemning Willie's comments, or the possibility that Matsui wins the job?

I can't get worked up over what Willie Randolph says. I don't expect him, or anyone who addresses the public, to be completely candid. It would be great, but it just doesn't happen.

And no, I feel the same way about the manager of the Milwaukee Brewers. I don't care if he's candid either. If that makes me the next O.J. Simpson, so be it.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I've lost track of what you're talking about. Are you condemning Willie's comments, or the possibility that Matsui wins the job?

Can't answer until it becomes clear if Willie flat-out lied about there being an open competition, or this is an ultra-clever plan of Omar's to deceive the numerous blind GMs from realizing that Matsui isn't a MLB player, or if this was a communications snafu of the hghest order, or if Willie is just universally acknowledged to be Joe Torre in blackface and so a liar to his fans and the press all the time, or what.

I'm not sure why, if you regard every baseball official as being completely without credibility, we ever discuss the significance of any public statement. Isn't the best answer to "Why did Willie/Omar/Fred say x or y o g" always "because they're spinning it to make us think the most favorable interpretation, however unlikely, about their team?" Why waste your time then?

I know people on the CPF have, from time to time, made terrible fun of absurd lying remarks made by non-Mets spokepersons. Even called them a name or two, I think.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I think there's a difference between spinning and "completely without credibility" but I'll put that aside.

I've always taken this stuff with a grain of salt. I think "maybe what he's saying is true, but maybe it's not." As such, it has limited worth to be sure.

Do we spend a lot of time parsing official Mets statements around here? Maybe. I hadn't noticed, but it's possible. The "careful parsing" discussions are the ones I usually don't participate in. I think, though, it happens more often with the work of sportswriters than with team employees, but I could be wrong.

Spin, though, is a fact of life. They do want to sell tickets, they do want to make their players more marketable to other teams. The thing to do is avoid buying tickets based on what Omar or Willie says, just on whether or not you think attending a ballgame is worth your entertainment dollar. And hope that, if they're trying to pull the wool over the eyes of another GM, that it works.

[Guest horace p. osterdonk]

Once the Ollie Putnam (high MayoR of PYed) was getting the idea on him to hiring his nephews Olie and Olin for working. They got the jobs to give directions to the people visiting at the City Halls and Ollie is a good uncle paid them all $200 for the weeks in the advanced.
The boys (at 12 and 11 years of old on that time) are each day doing a terrible job to tell everyone the directions, and even said to one mans "we are thinking don't bother to pay the traffic ticket and go home" rather than give a directions to the town Trafficks Courts. The man is screaming "this is Nephewtism" to have these bad boys to work here, and the boys they are laughting harder at it. then the Ollie gives a stern lecture and high regrets to them, and tries to take the $200 back, but it is not coming back because they have already bought the lumber for the new Tree house and as they say in PYed, "when the woods are cut, there is no return to the past".
So now Ollie thinks it is needed to make them to do a good job instead of to give the job on someone else for more moneys. If mR. saberman came to the city hall he would suggest to do this I am sure of it, and also Call Ollie a lyingman because Ollie keeps saying to all the peoples the boys are learning on how to do the job every day and "Olie and Olin are my directions boys for City Hall yes sir" while he is asking on if there is some money to get some other mans to do it on the cheap.
In the Towns meetins that week we are deciding this: the boys, yes they are doing a bad jobs to give directions, even one person is told go to the 10th Street offices when he needs to go to Poughkeepsie. BUT is it an outrageous so much to make us call the beloved Ollie Putnam mayor in a bad way so he will want to leave and hide his face and countenance from all times? NO. so instead we make helpful suggestions like please give the boys the job to rake the leaves by the river or help in the pumpkins harvest etc.
Ollie is then taking on these suggestions to useful with them, reasoning for that one, and in the end, is having Olie and Olin to be the cutting Ribbons of Ceremony boys for 2 months, using the whole money, every money, and saving the Ribbon Payments (which are on usual, outrageous) for to hire Mrs. Edith at part times and by remote phone to give directions to the peoples because she really knows everything and is using the money. And she is very old for a long time.
In PYed, we are saying, "When the Rooster barks to the Seagull, it is not a sure thing he is trying to be the dog (maybe he is just friendly!)". Also we say, it is not always in a high bad way with an intentional malicious that the waiter drops the soup on Mrs. Peabody".
For Ollie, he says next year if mrs. Edith is on the retire, the job is "open competition" and everybody should get ready to draw a map on city halls! This is a top job, in PYed, or anyplace that has the City Hall of PYed. So we still are believing that it could be the nephews again if they want it. As we say in PYed, "The nephews do not fall down away from the Uncle", and we also say "if the goat pays the shoemaker, he will be wearing shoes 90%". The explanation of this is clear when you are understanding that in PYed, (unlike in everyplace) it is actually very high unusual for a goat to USE shoes.
For the Omar and Willie, we in PYed are thinking it is a hard job on how to run with the Mets and some days are the paying the wrong man for the wrong things on an honest mistakes or because of the unpredictable, more than the conspiration or malicious. we will hope that the Saberman will not feel all the time that he has been given a cheating!
He will do a good job on remembering that Ollie Putnam (who is definitely a nephewtism), he DID get the money used, and now when you are in City Halls, allow extra time for Mrs. edith to tell a story with your directions, and you will also hear and see the bouncing and happy sounds of the nephews who have earned the pay by raking the pumpkins.

And that is how we stay so much on tracks in PYed!

EXPECT THE METS!

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Now, that's what I was trying to say! I couldn't have phrased it better myself.

Thanks Horace!

[MFS62]

Horace, welcome.
But, have you ever considered changing your medication?

Later

[RealityChuck]

="Bret Sabermetric"]Try my time-honored test: if a Yankees' GM and manager pulled off such a schmucky operation, would you give them a pass? How about some neutral team?

Ignoring your use of post hoc ergo propter hoc in the loaded word, "schumucky," sure I wouldn't be upset by it. As a matter of fact, one reason the Yankees became such a powerhouse in the 90s was that Steinbrenner stopped trying to micromanage and jump all over his manager for small issues. You seem willing to fire the manager if he makes a single mistake. Even Steinbrenner at his worst wasn't that bad.

Further, opinions change. Occam's Razor says that Randolph was probably originally thinking of an open competition, but changed his mind. Would you rather he stick with a bad idea just for consistency's sake? Would that make him more competent, in your mind?

And, though you're outraged about this, it doesn't seem like anyone else on the team other than Keppinger is particularly bothered. They know how the game is played.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

RealityChuck wrote: Would you rather he stick with a bad idea just for consistency's sake? Would that make him more competent, in your mind?

I think that the millions of people who voted for Bush in 2004 would say yes to that.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

RealityChuck wrote: You seem willing to fire the manager if he makes a single mistake.

Have I said to fire Willie? Are you saying this is his first mistake?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

RealityChuck wrote: it doesn't seem like anyone else on the team other than Keppinger is particularly bothered.

So it's unreasonable to interpret what Willie says to reporters because his job is to tell lies and deceive everyone including his own players, but it's okay to speculate on what it "seems" players are thinking when they haven't said anything in public? Sounds good to me.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I don't even get why Keppinger's upset. It's just his MLB career here that's being dicked with. Be a man, for Chrissake, Keppy. This is how the game is played. Quicher bitchin and suck it up, man.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="RealityChuck"]it doesn't seem like anyone else on the team other than Keppinger is particularly bothered. So it's unreasonable to interpret what Willie says to reporters because his job is to tell lies and deceive everyone including his own players.

He said there was an open competition. He didn't say, "If Keppinger has a higher batting average then he gets the job."

He didn't say "If Matsui hits under .200 then he loses the job."

For all we know, "open competition" means the guy who looks better in practice gets the job. ST games don't mean shit, as Tim Spehr will tell you.
___________________________
To nitpick over one quote (probably manipulated by the reporters), and talk about lying and deceit on the basis of that one quote, is not only stupid but a royal pain in the ass.


Edit: Removed some curses and changed possible interpretation of "open competition"

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Well, that wouldn't exactly be "open." Open would mean that everyone enters the spring with the same chances.

Maybe Willie said "open" and maybe he didn't mean it. If I was a second baseman in Mets camp trying to win a job, Randolph misstating the nature of the competition would piss me off.

But I'm not. I'm a fan, and I just hope that the best player gets the job, however that comes about.

[Elster88]

I edited before you posted.

We also don't know what Willie's telling the players. My guess is that he tells them different things than the reporters hear, and that he's constantly playing out scenarios in his mind.

This quote that has Bret's panties in a twist is also from a few weeks ago now. Things can change in life.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"] ="RealityChuck"]it doesn't seem like anyone else on the team other than Keppinger is particularly bothered. So it's unreasonable to interpret what Willie says to reporters because his job is to tell lies and deceive everyone including his own players. He said there was an open competition. He didn't say, "If Keppinger has a higher batting average then he gets the job." He didn't say "If Matsui hits under .200 then he loses the job." For all we know, "open competition" means that as long as Matsui doesn't hit zero and doesn't lose any limbs, he gets the job. ___________________________ To nitpick over one goddamn quote (probably manipulated by the reporters), and talk about lying and deceit on the basis of that one quote, is not only stupid, but a royal fucking pain in the ass.

Poor innocent misunderstood martyrly Willie, being crucifed for merely not explaining to my satisfaction what "open competition" really meant to him. Not that I even asked, either. I just assumed I knew what those wordds mean--and then I go blast Willie because his interpretation was slightly different from mine. Oh, the humanity!

The poor innocent dear, attacked by embittered fans and that evil lying press--and about only one little white lie, no doubt the first in his long and flawless life, despite the many temptation of that old devil Torre teaching him about the benefits of lying and trying to play people, too. In a world of murderers and child-molesters, the true crime here is even bothering to mention that Willie may have told his one well-intended lie. Oh, what a hypocrite I am! Am I without sin myself to castigate this beleaguered Saint so? Do I lack a human heart? Oh, the injustice of it all!

[Elster88]

Everything you just said is true. To crucify over one quote is stupid. I'm glad you figured it out.

[RealityChuck]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="RealityChuck"]it doesn't seem like anyone else on the team other than Keppinger is particularly bothered. So it's unreasonable to interpret what Willie says to reporters because his job is to tell lies and deceive everyone including his own players, but it's okay to speculate on what it "seems" players are thinking when they haven't said anything in public? Sounds good to me.

First of all, when did he lie? Is it impossible that he changed his mind about the competition for second base? Why or why not?

Second, how do you know he didn't tell the players what he was doing? How do you know my speculation is accurate or not?

]Have I said to fire Willie?

I really don't know. Do you really think your opinions are so important to me that I search the board to seek them out?

However, when one calls the manager "a lowdown, lying, two-faced, dumbass shitweasel" with a "dishonest character" who is "completely without credibility," it's hardly a glowing recommendation, is it? It's not unreasonable to assume you'd be much happier if he were gone.

Or do you want "a lowdown, lying, two-faced, dumbass shitweasel" with a "dishonest character" who is "completely without credibility" continue as manager? I know I wouldn't.

] Are you saying this is his first mistake?

No. I'm saying he made a mistake. He's probably made others. That's part of managing a team: you're going to make mistakes. And, of course, Willie's only been managing one year, so he'll make a few more than someone whose been doing it for decades.

But so what? The fact of the matter that the team improved 12 games over the previous year under his watch. Maybe he cost them a game or two; maybe he won a couple of games that another manager would have blown. There's no way to quantify that. But as long as the team continues to improve under his watch, I see no need to excoriate him for a few perceived missteps.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

RealityChuck wrote: Is it impossible that he changed his mind about the competition for second base? .

Nice standard of credibility, Chuck: That which is not impossible.

It's also not impossible that you and I are figments of each other's imagination.

[MFS62]

Figment
http://www.figmentsimagination.com/

Later

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

RealityChuck wrote: Second, how do you know he didn't tell the players what he was doing? How do you know my speculation is accurate or not?

Okay, what WAS he doing? "Fellas, I made up shit about the open competition because I thought maybe Kaz would get hot and I could pretend that his playing time had nothing to do with the 8 Million dollar contract, but that didn't really work, because Kaz sucks HMC so now the open competition thing is off, okay, guys?"

] Do you really think your opinions are so important to me that I search the board to seek them out?

No. I think they're so unimportant to you that you feel free to restate them before asking if your speculations match my opinions in any way.

] However, when one calls the manager "a lowdown, lying, two-faced, dumbass shitweasel" with a "dishonest character" who is "completely without credibility," it's hardly a glowing recommendation, is it? It's not unreasonable to assume you'd be much happier if he were gone. Or do you want "a lowdown, lying, two-faced, dumbass shitweasel" with a "dishonest character" who is "completely without credibility" continue as manager? I know I wouldn't.

I don't think it matters much who manages this team. If the Mets want to give OTJ training to some affirmative-action case so they can feel free to hire lily-white managers far into the future, I can't stop them.

]I'm saying he made a mistake. He's probably made others.

Gawrsh. Ya think, Sherlock?

[RealityChuck]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="RealityChuck"] Is it impossible that he changed his mind about the competition for second base? . Nice standard of credibility, Chuck: That which is not impossible.

But that's your argument: you assume it's impossible that he changed his mind.

Here's the question you will undoubtedly avoid, but I'll ask anyway:

Could he have changed his mind on the issue? Yes or no

]Okay, what WAS he doing?

I have no idea. I can only speculate that he was trying to either pump up Matsui's value, or changed his mind. There are other possibilities, too. But you are automatically assuming that not only is he lying, but that's the only possibility. Clearly, there are many others. So why do you insist the only possiblity is that he's lying?

]No. I think they're so unimportant to you that you feel free to restate them before asking if your speculations match my opinions in any way.

If you haven't noticed, I happen to be reading this thread, where seeing your opinions was unavoidable. I have not, however, bothered to go elsewhere to see what other venom you're spouting.

]I don't think it matters much who manages this team.

Interesting. So if it doesn't matter, why does it matter what the manager says or if his comments are consistent? You're frothing at the mouth over something you don't think matters much. Odd.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

horace - it's good to see you back. Let's share a pumpkin ale some time, shall we?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

RealityChuck wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"] RealityChuck wrote: Is it impossible that he changed his mind about the competition for second base? . Nice standard of credibility, Chuck: That which is not impossible. But that's your argument: you assume it's impossible that he changed his mind.

And where did I say anything was possible or impossible? I just think that what happened was he told a whopper, that's all.

] Here's the question you will undoubtedly avoid, but I'll ask anyway: Could he have changed his mind on the issue? Yes or no

Oh, lawyer's tricks. 'Just answer the question 'yes' or 'no' please--have you stopped beating your meat?' It's possible that he's never told a lie of any sort, ever. Quite possible.It's also entirely possible that you and I are residents of an alien culture, and are each disingeniously posting here to throw suspicion off our plans for conquest of planet Earth, before we beam our multi-headed forces down to Earth next Wednesday and begin devouring Earthling scum, beginning with Elster88. And wash it down with Guinness.

] "Okay, what WAS he doing?" I have no idea. I can only speculate that he was trying to either pump up Matsui's value, or changed his mind. There are other possibilities, too. But you are automatically assuming that not only is he lying, but that's the only possibility. Clearly, there are many others. So why do you insist the only possiblity is that he's lying?

You'll have to find the passage for me where I say anything about possibility, other than to point out its foolishness in your writing here.

]"No. I think they're so unimportant to you that you feel free to restate them before asking if your speculations match my opinions in any way." If you haven't noticed, I happen to be reading this thread, where seeing your opinions was unavoidable. I have not, however, bothered to go elsewhere to see what other venom you're spouting.

You've missed so much.

]"I don't think it matters much who manages this team." Interesting. So if it doesn't matter, why does it matter what the manager says or if his comments are consistent? You're frothing at the mouth over something you don't think matters much. Odd.

That's not froth; it's Guinness.

[Elster88]

]It's also entirely possible that you and I are residents of an alien culture, and are each disingeniously posting here to throw suspicion off our plans for conquest of planet Earth, before we beam our multi-headed forces down to Earth next Wednesday and begin devouring Earthling scum, beginning with Elster88. And wash it down with Guinness.

I go better with a single malt scotch.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Hm.



or

[Elster88]

That's a scary animal. It would make a good mascot.

[Vic Sage]

This recalls Bret's branding of Wilpon, etal, as liars for stating 2 years ago that David Wright wasn't ready yet, and the plan wasn't for him to make it this season, (or whatever the reporter said Freddie said), and so when David ended up having a hot start in the minors and was brought up ahead of schedule, it became evidence of the organization being a bunch of pernicious liars engaged in a massive deception (to what end? who knows.)

at some point in his life, Bret must've been badly disappointed. So now he sees each press report as an opportunity to find a liar.

It must be an amusing hobby... like finding a "nina" in a Hirshfeld.