Benson -- Julio Redux?

[Elster88]

Edgy DC wrote: ]Would you have made a trade of Cameron, Seo and Benson for Julio, Sanchez, and Nady??? There are other people involved.

Thank you for stating the obvious. Would you agree that these are the principals? Or is it not allowed to mention these trades as a whole without naming each minor leaguer and the exact dollar amounts?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Not obvious enough for you to work into the equation.

I think when the Mets throw in a guy --- Billy Traber for instance, or Matt Peterson in your other example --- it's typically worth remarking, but it's easier to overlook when players round out the package the Mets are receiving. You framed the question as if it you were presenting the bottom-line question under which to judge the deal. It's not.

I don't like the deal either.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

The out-patients are out in force tonight.

On the WFAN overnight, Met fans are hysterically denouncing this trade. In a way, it's a challenge trade--it's so godawful on the face of it, Omar is challenging us to a contest of "Who knows baseball, me or you?" which is how the Mets' deals (at least since 7/30/04) have gone: the team pulls off a trade that everyone hates (I keep my hatred, most of you let yours go after a few months), and it never really makes any more sense than that but Omar insists that it's our idea of true value that's off.

Did this deal speak to Peterson's success as a pitching coach? Benson was the same damn pitcher after he got here as he was before--did Peterson show him how to make that breakthrough step? Has Peterson helped Zambrano improve from the mediocrity he was in Tampa Bay? Did he make Pedro or Glavine into better pitchers? If we'd known that Benson was going to continue his less-than-stellar pitching on the Mets, do you think you'd have been so accepting of the deal? Omar is in effect making the case that there is more value in what he's getting in deals like this Benson deal (and the other one) than meets the eye, that he knows value and all the decryers on WFAN (and on planet Earth) don't. But where's the beef? Meanwhile, he's stocking Hispanic ballplayers as if all the Americans are due to get banned from the game any minute now. Maybe he does know something we don't.

The overnight host is making this argument that the deal was geared to divest the Mets of Anna Benson. Makes as much sense as anything else I've heard, which is to say None at all.

BTW, I think Wigginton's going to have a better year (more Win Shares) in 2006 than Benson will.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

The real challenge of this trade is the Peterson-to-Mazzone aspect.

One of the reasons I think the Mets acquired Benson in the first place was to prevent the Braves from getting him: KB fit the whole Mazzone Project M.O.: Local Georgia guy, good talent but not fully realized, and IIRC, they had their eyes on him at the deadline just like the Mets did.

I'm sure that's part of the reason the O's are excited to have him now.

And Benson was, till he broke down late, a pretty good success with Peterson.

Maybe the Mets feel he'd continue to get hurt.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: And Benson was, till he broke down late, a pretty good success with Peterson. Maybe the Mets feel he'd continue to get hurt.

Don't you think that if Benson had stayed healthy here, a lot of credit would have been heaped on Peterson for "doing" that?

At what point do the Mets acknowledge that Peterson's record in keeping pitching healthy, showing them new ways to pitch successfully, fixing their problems faster than Jiffy-Lube, is at best not measurable, and at worst is completely fraudulent?

Does "never" work for you? I'm sure when he leaves, the Mets will be patting themselves on the back for having had the wisdom to hire the World's Best Pitching Coach who never showed anything tangible.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I absolutely hate this deal, in no small part because we just got rid of Seo. I mean, if we were clearing out Benson to ensure that Seo had a spot, I'd be almost okay with it, but this just makes no sense.

And for all you people who think that these shit moves are a prelude to landing Zito, don't forget that we're going to have to give up even MORE talent to get him. I mean, seriously, if we're willing to give up a solid, middle of the order pitcher for a mediocre prospect and a below-average relief pitcher, how much do you think we'll give up for a former Cy Young winner?

I'm thinking Diaz/Nady, Heilman & Milledge as a starting point for the negotiations, and frankly, that's a crappy fucking deal.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

]I absolutely hate this deal, in no small part because we just got rid of Seo. I mean, if we were clearing out Benson to ensure that Seo had a spot, I'd be almost okay with it, but this just makes no sense.

Let's pretend just for a second then that Seo hadn't been traded.

Why do you say "almost OK"?

[metirish]

Jon Heyman's view on the trade( nothing new here)

] This trade is for the Birds - and for the Mets, too The Mets pulled the trigger on Kris Benson-for-Jorge Julio not because Barry Zito or Jeff Weaver is waiting in the wings but for several other reasons. Such as: 1) General manager Omar Minaya loves Julio's power arm (with Billy Wagner and Julio, who's hit 99 mph, the Mets have the hardest-throwing bullpen back end); 2) Minaya wanted to give Aaron Heilman a shot at the No. 5 starting spot he's been craving; 3) Mets people see other starting alternatives in Yusaku Iriki and maybe even No. 1 draft choice Mike Pelfrey by midseason; 4) While the Orioles rebuffed attempts at former No. 1 pick Adam Loewen, the Mets liked righthander John Maine, another hard thrower (though some note last year's regression); 4) The Mets got younger; 5) Anna Benson will have to don her Santa's helper get-up in Baltimore now; 6) They'll save $13 million because Kris Benson has $15.5 million left through '07 and Julio will make about $2.55 million via arbitration, providing flexibility should something tempting arise later (including Zito). A's GM Billy Beane told the Mets he won't offer Zito until at least midseason, if then. And even then, it'll be tough; Beane would insist on Lastings Milledge and the Mets envision him as a potential replacement for Cliff Floyd in '07. As for Weaver, the Mets' interest seems mild. Texas, Anaheim, Baltimore and perhaps Boston are more likely landing spots for Weaver. Santa's gift to Baltimore? Anna Benson played Santa's helper all right - she likely helped get the Orioles the starting pitcher they desperately needed. The Mets are too polite to admit it, but her "career" and her over-the-top Santa stripper suit at the kids' Christmas party could not have gone unnoticed. Mrs. Benson was in the city yesterday for a magazine "photo shoot." Unfortunately for her, there won't be as many photo ops in Baltimore.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

metirish wrote: Jon Heyman's view on the trade( nothing new here) ] 6) They'll save $13 million because Kris Benson has $15.5 million left through '07 and Julio will make about $2.55 million via arbitration, providing flexibility should something tempting arise later (including Zito).

This is the part I don't get. Let's see now, the Mets were brilliant to acquire this guy in a trade rather than wait for him to go FA, surrendering (what I still think are) pretty good players for him, and then signing him to a big bux contract, AND they're patting themselves on the back for unloading said contract, which frees them up to sign another pitcher.

Give me five bucks. I want to put it in one pocket, then put it in another, and then give back to you. Everyone makes money on this deal. My right pocket, my left pocket, and you, right? I'm a super-genius.

[smg58]

1) the power arm: and the balls go out (35 HR in 204.1 IP over the past three seasons) as fast as they come in. Granted, he should give up less HR at an NL pitcher's park, but that would elevate his numbers up to mediocre, instead of simply awful.

2) Heilman in the rotation: I'll believe it when I see it. Plus, the one-hitter notwithstanding, he was a lot more consistent in the pen.

3) Pelfrey and Iriki: I'll believe those when I see them too. Iriki was serviceable in Japan, which is like being serviceable in Norfolk. Pelfrey hasn't played any professional ball yet. And why is he more of a keeper than Petit or Kazmir?

4) Maine: If only some are noting last year's regression, how do the others justify ignoring it?

4) (yes, he had two 4's) getting younger: Was Heyman critical of Jacobs and Petit for Delgado? Or signing Billy Wagner? I like getting younger when it also means getting better, or at least clearing out older guys who can't help the Mets win anymore. I'm not sure the latter is true for Benson.

5) I don't like Anna either, but she wasn't in the Mets' rotation, her husband was.

6) Julio is arbitration eligible next year too, so it's closer to $10 million. But the Mets aren't strapped right now, and they've made some rather large investments this offseason with the ostensible purpose of winning right now. Perhaps there's another deal forthcoming, but otherwise you're gambling that Heilman over Benson in the rotation gives more than Julio over Heilman takes away in the pen.

[seawolf17]

smg58 wrote: 1) the power arm: and the balls go out (35 HR in 204.1 IP over the past three seasons) as fast as they come in. Granted, he should give up less HR at an NL pitcher's park, but that would elevate his numbers up to mediocre, instead of simply awful. 2) Heilman in the rotation: I'll believe it when I see it. Plus, the one-hitter notwithstanding, he was a lot more consistent in the pen. 3) Pelfrey and Iriki: I'll believe those when I see them too. Iriki was serviceable in Japan, which is like being serviceable in Norfolk. Pelfrey hasn't played any professional ball yet. And why is he more of a keeper than Petit or Kazmir? 4) Maine: If only some are noting last year's regression, how do the others justify ignoring it? 4) (yes, he had two 4's) getting younger: Was Heyman critical of Jacobs and Petit for Delgado? Or signing Billy Wagner? I like getting younger when it also means getting better, or at least clearing out older guys who can't help the Mets win anymore. I'm not sure the latter is true for Benson. 5) I don't like Anna either, but she wasn't in the Mets' rotation, her husband was. 6) Julio is arbitration eligible next year too, so it's closer to $10 million. But the Mets aren't strapped right now, and they've made some rather large investments this offseason with the ostensible purpose of winning right now. Perhaps there's another deal forthcoming, but otherwise you're gambling that Heilman over Benson in the rotation gives more than Julio over Heilman takes away in the pen.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

I don't like this deal right now.

[Guest Hillbilly]

I was a surprised to see this deal, especially in addition to the Seo trade. But if you compare the current starting staff to last year�s staff, the pitching suddenly doesn�t look that bad.

Opening Day
2004.

1. Pedro
2. Glavine
3. Benson
4. Zambrano
5. Ishii


Projected for 2005.

1. Pedro
2. Glavine
3. Zambrano
4. Trachsel
5. Heilman

Which is the better staff? I actually think it is very close, and if Heilman takes a(nother) step forward, this year�s staff will likely be improved. Problem is depth beyond these 5 guys. The 2006 staff will have a greatly improved bullpen.

At first I thought that trading Benson would be a prelude to adding Zito or Weaver. But after some reflection I don�t think that�s the case. I think its faith (investment) in Heilman to further progress this year.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: The out-patients are out in force tonight. On the WFAN overnight, Met fans are hysterically denouncing this trade. In a way, it's a challenge trade--it's so godawful on the face of it, Omar is challenging us to a contest of "Who knows baseball, me or you?" which is how the Mets' deals (at least since 7/30/04) have gone: the team pulls off a trade that everyone hates (I keep my hatred, most of you let yours go after a few months), and it never really makes any more sense than that but Omar insists that it's our idea of true value that's off.

Did Omar say something to this effect? I haven't been paying attention to the comments coming out of the front office.

[Guest GYC]

the Korean cartoon site agrees: the only English words they have there are "really, really dumb."
http://news.naver.com/sports/index.nhn?category=mlb&menu=news&mode=view&office_id=109&article_id=0000025362

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Okay you meant 2005 and 2006, not 2004 and 2005.

But let's compare point by point

1. Pedro 2005 vs Pedro 2006. Pedro 2005 is better. In 2005, he's a year younger, a year further from breaking down. No brainer.

2. Glavine 2005 vs Glavine 2006. Same deal

3. Benson 2005 vs. Trachsel 2006. (I'm moving Zambrano down a slot because it's an easier comparison.) Benson wins narrowly, I think. He's younger, has more upside (not realized, but we didn't know that at the time, we were expecting Cy Young junior maybe.) About equally effective, if you don't consider age and potential as valid considerations.

4. Zambrano 2005 vs Zambrano 2006. Every year that his guy shleps on wihitout becoming a quality pitcher is another nail in his coffin. Eventually he'll have all the nails he needs, and we'll bury him and move on.

5.Ishii 2005 vs. Heilman 2006. Heilman's better.

So I count that four rounds for the 2005 rotation, one round for the 2006 bunch. "By Yoo-namimous decision, the winnah is..."

[Guest cooby]

Why all the doom and gloom? Benson was not exactly the ace of the staff, I don't think he was even all that dependable anymore. Let him go.

[Elster88]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I'm sure that's part of the reason the O's are excited to have him now.

Probably. But I'm sure the main contributor to their excitement is that the only major leaguer they had to give up pitched to a 5.86 ERA last year.

[Elster88]

I hope as much as the next guy that Zito ends up here....but I'm almost positive I remember, around the winter meetings, the A's saying they won't trade him in the offseason. I'll look for a quote.

[Zvon]

="seawolf17"]

I know you always have the av pic match the name,.......
this one cracked me up wolf.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]Omar insists that it's our idea of true value that's off. Did Omar say something to this effect? I haven't been paying attention to the comments coming out of the front office.

No, I'm just saying that these trades, which make sense to no one, are in effect Omar's arguing that he's getting value and we'll have to see how the trades work out. If he's improving the team by the trades, then he'll be able to brag, "See? You all doubted my ability to judge good pitching." But if it doesn't work out, we'll all say "What the hell were you drinking, Omar? No one lilked those deals. You could have have asked us if you should make tem and we would have saved you a lot of grief."

[Elster88]

I actually hope their is some method to his madness. Right now I think he honestly thinks he's making the team better......which scares me more than anything.

[metirish]

] hope as much as the next guy that Zito ends up here....but I'm almost positive I remember, around the winter meetings, the A's saying they won't trade him in the offseason. I'll look for a quote.

yeah I've read that today, Beane apparently has told the Mets that he won't trade him before the season and might not even trade him during the season....

[Guest Rotblatt]

]Let's pretend just for a second then that Seo hadn't been traded. Why do you say "almost OK"?

Because I'm pretty sure that Willie would have pulled the same stupid crap he did last year and send Seo to AAA in favor of an inferior pitcher (Trachsel, Zambrano, Benson--take your pick). So by getting rid of Benson, we'd have been removing one more potential obstacle that WIllie might put in Seo's way.

I'm all for idiot-proofing this team as much as possible, which is why I'm pretty fucking crabby that about this trade. Let say we DO sign Weaver, relegating Heilman to the pen. How much do you want to bet that Willie would use Heilman for mop-up duty for the first three months again, sending Mediocrity Personified out in the 7th & 8th in the form of Sanchez & Julio?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

it was at least as much Omar's call as it was Willie's to send Seo to the the lower depths.

[metirish]

Willie when asked at the Knicks game about the trade of Benson said he was "not happy" with it....from the Daily news..relevent paragraph...

] Willie Randolph, who was at the Knicks' home game last night against the Hornets, said he was "not happy" about the trade, but that he was not surprised, either. "There are always guys coming and going. Part of the business," he said. "But it's good to get some strong arms coming in."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/story/384812p-326612c.html

[Elster88]

Seo is not inferior to Benson.

[Guest rpackrat]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if someone has already said this, but why is anyone surprised by any of this stuff? Back when Steve Phillips was still our GM and folks were clamoring for his head and getting a woody for Omar, I pointed out that Omar's biggest claim to fame until then was ridiculously overpaying for a half season rental of Bartolo Colon. So why is anyone surprised that he continues in his longstanding habit of ridiculously overpaying in trades? Based on his pre-Met track record, why should anyone have expected anything different?

[Zvon]

metirish wrote: ] Willie Randolph, who was at the Knicks' home game last night against the Hornets, said he was "not happy" about the trade, but that he was not surprised, either. "There are always guys coming and going. Part of the business," he said. "But it's good to get some strong arms coming in."

I find this interesting.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Anna's response (thus far) is more subdued than I expected.

New York Times online
January 22, 2006

Right on Cue, Anna Benson Throws in Her Two Cents
By BEN SHPIGEL

Wearing a black jersey of her new favorite team, the Baltimore Orioles, Anna Benson entered a cramped conference room of a Manhattan public-relations firm last night, her makeup still fresh from an earlier photo shoot for the April issue of FHM magazine.

She slapped her husband, Kris, on the thigh as they sat down, then listened as he talked about being traded to Baltimore.

Then it was Anna's turn to respond, and true to her reputation, she did not go quietly.

The trade brought pitchers Jorge Julio and John Maine to the Mets, and Anna used the hastily arranged news conference to sound off on all things personal, baseball and Mets. It was Anna Benson being Anna Benson.

"I think everyone blows me out of proportion," she said.

She is a rarity among today's professional men's athletes: the wife who has more of a public persona than her husband. Her time in New York was, in some ways, more remarkable than that of her husband.

Benson was moderately successful in his 18 months as a Met, but Anna stole the spotlight, sharing intimate details of their sex life, blasting the anti-establishment filmmaker Michael Moore and, more recently, criticizing the Mets for trying to trade her husband.

Hours before the news conference, Kris Benson, in a conference call, said that he was looking forward to working with the Orioles' pitching coach, Leo Mazzone, and to pitching in Camden Yards, the only major league stadium he said he had never visited.

Anna said in a statement released after the trade that she and Benson looked forward to "christening the parking lot" at the stadium, referring to her desire to have sex at every major league park.

Whether her brashness contributed to the Mets' persistence in trying to trade Benson is unclear. Mets officials have publicly denied it, and the deal has been months in the making, especially on the Orioles' part. Only the terms needed tweaking.

The Bensons said they hoped and believed that Anna's outsized personality had not factored into the Mets' decision, but their responses yesterday indicated that they were at least a little suspicious. Benson said he did not think the trade was "cut and dry." Anna was a little more straightforward.

"If they traded Kris because of what I've done, then that's a dirty, nasty, rotten trick," she said, adding that he would have signed elsewhere last winter if they had known he would be traded this quickly after signing a three-year contract.

As she spoke last night, enunciating clearly and forcefully, a smile did not leave her face, even as she addressed some weightier subjects.

She has criticized the Mets for acquiring Carlos Delgado, who has not stood for the playing of "God Bless America" during games because of his opposition to American foreign policy. Clarifying those remarks last night, she said that she wondered why the Mets were willing to acquire Delgado but then were leery when she considered modeling for Playboy.

"Be liberal or not, make a choice," Anna said, adding that her posing for Playboy was a dead issue.

In Baltimore, it is unlikely that Anna Benson's outrageousness will cause as much of a stir as it did in New York. She will continue to spout shocking comments, wear revealing outfits - like the low-cut dress she chose for the Mets' annual holiday party for children - and try to be, according to her, "the sexiest woman in professional sports."

Asked whether the move would damage her career as a model and as an all-around show-business personality, Anna deferred to her husband.

"This is never about me," she said. "This is about him."

[Guest Edgy DC]

]How much do you want to bet that Willie would use Heilman for mop-up duty for the first three months again, sending Mediocrity Personified out in the 7th & 8th in the form of Sanchez & Julio?

Really? This trade, whatever it's other traits, appears to have opened a door for Heilman. You really think it's about shutting the door on him?