Booing--Boo or Yay?

[metsmarathon]

i think i've booed in the past, tho i cannot recall the exact circumstances.

i actually was at the mike glavine game. i'm pretty sure i didn't boo, but i've no idea if his continued participation in metly games would have ultimately driven me to do so. certainly, my booing would not have caused him to perform better.

it may, however, have served the purpose, if indeed i had chosen to boo, of conveying to management my displeasure in such a shitty player/personnel decision.

so, i think that booing to express displeasure in gross player or management incompetence is perfectly fine.

booing to express displeasure in a particularly bad effort or mistake, also perfectly fine.

booing because a player takes the field despite his not living up to our collective (and often lofty) expectations, as some means of conveying a desire for the player to perform better... well, i'm not so sure that's all too effective, and therefore i'm typically disagree with it.

why is it most players perform better at home as compared to on the road? because they feel the home crowd supports them. someone cheering for you often leads you to relax, play looser, think less about what your doing and just do it, and ultimately, those are all things that lead to better, more mistake-free play (in general).

put a player in a hostile environment, and he's no longer playing loose. he's playing tight. trying too hard in many cases. it leads to poor decisions, slow reactions, and less reliance on instinct. its very similar to what happens to a player in a slump. they start examining everything they do, and try hard to do those things better.

now, if you're booing a guy who's just not trying hard, then sure, i've no problem. but if you're booing a guy who's already trying to perform well, but just isnt getting results, then you're dooming him to, often, even worse performance.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

metsmarathon wrote: why is it most players perform better at home as compared to on the road?

This is actually an interesting and complex question worthy of its own thread.

[metsmarathon]

true. and i've oversimplified. a supportive crowd is but one of many factors that would tend to bring about better performance and/or results in a home stadium.

regardless, it is my belief that a supportive crowd brings out better performance and/or results in players than does a hostile crowd, thereby rendering booing as potentially detrimental to player performance and championship aspirations.

[nymr83]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="metsmarathon"]why is it most players perform better at home as compared to on the road? This is actually an interesting and complex question worthy of its own thread.

living at home instead of in a hotel room may help with their sleep at the very least.
i would HOPE that part of the answer is somewhere along the lines of "GMs know how their ballpark plays for different types of hitters and they aquire those guys who typically do well there"

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Baseball is a hard game full of failure. Just about any hitter would tell you that in order to succeed they have to put just about all distractions behind and concentrate on the moment. The least we can do as "fans" is give them their moment without introducing a negative judgement on that opportunity first. Let them have their moment. Have your say afterward if you like.

It's a little of out context to apply my thoughts on fans who boo Matsui when he's announced (as expressed in the other thread) to an overall "Dickshot's Law on Booing" as it's being called here. I don't make the rules, and I don't necessarily want to.

That said, in my opinion, fans who justify any and all booing by remarking "He gets paid millions to play a game, tough shit," and/or "Booing is the only way to let management know we disagreed with something management did months ago," or "I paid my money I can act like a jackass if I so choose" are mooks who embarrass me and make fools of themselves, and possibly, interfere with a player's ability to get the best result in his moment.

Seems like, they often think too highly of their own influence (assuming as they do that the player or manager they target is too dense to understand fans are generally dissatisfied with poor results) or perhaps, don't think much at all (The "fans who boo when guys are announced" and "fans who don't understand what the fuck is going on anyhow" demographics index pretty closely at Shea in my unscientific observations).

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Well said, Johnny.

If a guy gets caught napping on the basepaths, or fumbles an easy grounder that lets a key run score, then I can understand groans and boos.

But booing a player every time his name is announced is nothing more than lunkhead behavior. Millionaires are no less deserving of courtesy and respect than people who are living paycheck to paycheck.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: they often think too highly of their own influence (assuming as they do that the player or manager they target is too dense to understand fans are generally dissatisfied with poor results).

And would you say that people who cheer and do that cuckold's-horn-in-mouth-whistle-thing assume that the player or manager is too dense to understand otherwise that the fans appreciate the good results?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

]And would you say that people who cheer and do that cuckold's-horn-in-mouth-whistle-thing assume that the player or manager is too dense to understand otherwise that the fans appreciate the good results?

No.

I don't feel cheering and booing are necessarily opposites of one another. The opposite of whistling and cheering is sitting on your hands, or perhaps, staying at home.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Interesting. Those are my two chief techniques, clapping and silence. And some cheering. My three chief techniques are...

But you realize that the logic you're applying isn't necessarily dependent on your somewhat convenient definitions, right? I can't really see BV standing on the dugout steps going, "They just love my double-switching Timo in the game and Mando. Willya LISTEN to them, they're going nuts, yes, BV, you lovable little genius you..." and also interpreting the lower decibel level when Mando surrenders the HR blast: "Hmmmm, I perceive the fans are saying with their eloquent silence how heartily they disapprove of my putting Mando in the game at this point. Yes, surely, if they were willing to forgive my impetuous and daring move, far fewer fans would be so utterly and censoriously quiet--I estimate that it must be fully 34 to 37 %, perhaps 38% who are saying nothing at this moment, as opposed to the usual 12 to 20 % percent of completely mute and still fans at big Shea. This is a heavy burden for me to bear, and I will think hard and penitantly in my lonely room tonight..."

OE: I was having too much fun there writing BV's soliloquies and forgot to get to my point: you say that cheering and booing are not opposites, as if there can be only two possible responses to a game. But of course they are two opposed ways of reacting. Silence is a third. Staing home watching on TV is a fourth. Devoting your life to clanging a cowbell around the stadium for three hours eighty times a year is a fifth...

But if you mean to suggest there's some kind of point or purpose to cheering and clapping, that it's intended in part to encourage or congratulate or reward players, then why not extend that privilege to booing? If you think the fans who boo are deluding themselves into thinking their rude sounds have any effect on the players, then 1) why would it bother you? and 2) why would you think that cheering has the opposite effect?

I'm not looking for an argument, as much as a discussion. Instead of defending our own behavior, or putting down those mooks who behave otherwise, I'd rather try to understand booing, why it happens, when it's okay, when it's wrong or rude, etc.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I dunno. Isn't applause generally accepted customary civil polite encouragement typical of a partisan crowd?

There is a difference between polite applause, no applause, and Todd Zeile doubles in 3 runs in Game 4 of the NLCS style cheers.

Edit -- as I said before I generally wouldn't have a huge issue hearing boos after the closer gives up the game-ending HR, and I might even make one myself. What I disapprove of is booing him before he gets the chance next time solely for that reason.

[metsmarathon]

you seem to forget that one of the reasons we cheer is to convey the message "gosh, i hope you do well!"

in the case of a timo double switch, you could still be cheering to root on the mets as a team, to indicate your desire for the move to work out for the better, despite whatever misgivings we may as fans have.

the opposite of this message, to boo, is "gosh i hope you fail miserably"

surely, you would expect the stands at a home game to be more filled with those who would wish well for their team, than those who would not.

[Guest KC]

root root root for the home team
if the don't win it's a shame

Learned it early in life, still live by it.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You know I'm with you on this whole Mando thing--the self-perpetuating cycle of abuse, etc.--but let's focus on booing the manager for putting a tired closer in the game who gives up the game-emding HR. They boo, you're cool with that.

But some fans might think "Everybody was booing Looper tonight, but Willie basically got off scot-free and I blame him much more than Looper. Actually, I blame --uh, who was the GM who signed Looper? Duquette? Steve Phillips? Joe McDonald? Anyway, I want to boo him but how do I do that? Maybe I'll take a day off work, and come to Shea and boo the administrative offices. or maybe it'll be easier to boo Willie when he comes out to exchange lineup cards tomorrow. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll come out the Shea, boo WIllie who'll probably understand why I'm booing him at the start of tomorrow's game, I hope, and then I'll head down to the bullpen to cheer Looper to compensate for those boos he got tonight. Then I should probably write a nasty note to Minaya telling him I hope he doesn't sign any sucky closers but to tell Duquette or whoever Boooo for me, and then I'll write on a messageboard some foul twisted abusive stuff about the Mets front office." No, I think the Booos that Mando gets next game are some attempt to express all of that, and maybe more. I don't like it or approve of it, but I don't think it's just pure and brainless scapegoating of Mando, either.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

In the case you've created, sure.

More often though, the type of lunkhead booing we see at Shea are fans booing Matsui when he approaches the plate with Reyes on first and none out. He hits a groundball out to the right side, advancing Reyes to second, and gets booed off the field anyway.

The next night, the crowd cheers for Cairo upon his announcement, and when he flies out to left, leaving Reyes on first, they sit on their hands.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Those are some abused puppies you're talking about there. As soon as you pick up a newspaper to read it, they're running away from you, dripping urine on the carpet. They need help.

[Elster88]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: That said, in my opinion, fans who justify any and all booing by remarking "He gets paid millions to play a game, tough shit," and/or "Booing is the only way to let management know we disagreed with something management did months ago," or "I paid my money I can act like a jackass if I so choose" are mooks who embarrass me and make fools of themselves, and possibly, interfere with a player's ability to get the best result in his moment. Seems like, they often think too highly of their own influence (assuming as they do that the player or manager they target is too dense to understand fans are generally dissatisfied with poor results) or perhaps, don't think much at all (The "fans who boo when guys are announced" and "fans who don't understand what the fuck is going on anyhow" demographics index pretty closely at Shea in my unscientific observations).

Perfectly said.

There's also a lot of hidden self-loathing in the "they get paid millions, I bought a ticket, so I'll boo them if I want" excuse. Maybe people feel better about themselves if they can boo someone who they feel undeservedly makes more money then them.

](The "fans who boo when guys are announced" and "fans who don't understand what the fuck is going on anyhow" demographics index pretty closely at Shea in my unscientific observations).

Also closely linked with the demographics of people who post "MATSUI SUCKS!!!!" or "I HATE LOOPER!!!" on a message board.

[Frayed Knot]

"Actually, I blame -- uh, who was the GM who signed Looper?"

Was the acquisition of Looper a bad move worth booing during the '04 season when he was good, or just during '05 when he wasn't?

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Personally, I tend to boo for what I perceive as a lack of effort, not a lack of results. I may not like a physical error or misplay, but I can accept it. A lack of effort or a perceivied lack of caring is inexcusable.

Just as in my business, I can live with an employee making a mistake from time to time, we'll fix it and try to make sure they understand what they did wrong. However, if an employee doesn't put forth proper effort or doesn't seem to care about the quality of their work, then they will soon be working elsewhere.

[Guest silverdsl]

I've only heckled/booed one player ever and that was Chuck Knoblauch who I thought had a very poor attitude at times towards playing for the Yankees who were more than tolerant of his throwing issues and wasn't always too cool towards some of the fans, including some of his most supportive fans. Now I don't think I would ever boo another player no matter how much I disliked them, and believe me there have been some players that I really can't stand or who I've thought are playing pretty poor baseball. My feeling about booing these days is that the players don't need to the fans to tell them when they're not playing well and my personal feelings about liking or disliking particular players are pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Even though I don't boo myself I respect someone else's right to boo if they want to. However, it bothers me when some fans start to boo or heckle players or the team very early on like in the first inning for perceived suckiness when the outcome of the game is still completely up in the air and the players have barely gotten a chance to do anything positive or negative yet. Even worse are the fans who insist on screaming vulgar remarks at the top of their lungs at the players and I find it particularly irksome when they are screaming those things at players on their own team. No one has to like everyone who plays for their team but expressing their dislike in such a vile manner makes it hard for the fans around them to enjoy the game.

[Guest rpackrat]

I can think of very few times when I have booed a player. I only boo for lack of effort or for some particularly egregious conduct or remark (I still boo Hampton for his "good schools" comment: You want to chase the last dollar, that's your privilege, but don't insult my intelligence). If a player appears to be giving it his all but not getting results, I see no point in booing. The guy knows he's batting .180 or has an ERA of 6, he just can't do anything else about it and booing won't change that.