Better Late Than Never

[Guest cooby]

Well the obvious answer is Willie Mays

[Guest d'Kong76]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: You suspended me for posting about the way Travis d'arnaud cocks his wrists

Revisionist history, once again.
I know ten year olds that can go longer without saying cocks and ****s.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth.

This is such a terrible set of arguments it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe someone can offer this in good faith. It read like it's meant to infuriate the other side.

First off, why the arbitrary category of expansion team? Being the best expansion team is something nobody cares about.

Secondly, it's not a perceived advantage. It is a documented, irrefutable advantage. The Mets play in NY. The largest market in the US. Before a single move is made, they start off with a tremendous head start over the majority of their competitors.

It's clear as day that there is a difference between signing an aging veteran to be insurance for a loaded team, and signing an aging veteran to be a main cog. If you're going to have a discussion, you have to exert a minimum level of effort or else it's pointless for the other side.

The Yankees, with their lack of pitching depth, are 7th in team ERA. While playing in the AL. The Mets are 16th.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Ceetar wrote: So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth. This is such a terrible set of arguments it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe someone can offer this in good faith. It read like it's meant to infuriate the other side. First off, why the arbitrary category of expansion team? Being the best expansion team is something nobody cares about. Secondly, it's not a perceived advantage. It is a documented, irrefutable advantage. The Mets play in NY. The largest market in the US. Before a single move is made, they start off with a tremendous head start over the majority of their competitors. It's clear as day that there is a difference between signing an aging veteran to be insurance for a loaded team, and signing an aging veteran to be a main cog. If you're going to have a discussion, you have to exert a minimum level of effort or else it's pointless for the other side. The Yankees, with their lack of pitching depth, are 7th in team ERA. While playing in the AL. The Mets are 16th.

no of course no one cares about expansion teams, but it still represents more than half the teams. And it sounds more impressive than arbitrarily trying to rank what the 'best' franchises are (hint, the Mets still probably fall in top third or whatever). This woe is me being a Mets fan sucks stuff is tiresome.

Another nebulous argument I'm also tired of is the documented advantage and what we 'deserve' as fans. Yes, we have more fans and money than most teams. Some of that is curbed by various financial decisions/cheapness/whatever. It's not like they're spending nothing Nor are they wallowing in last place for a decade.

The Dodgers signed Utley to be a main cog, the Mets signed Gonzalez as insurance for a position they have a talented prospect at (who got hurt in Spring Training) and a talented prospect right behind him. The Mets clearly never intended Gonzalez to make it to midseason unless he was mashing.

The Yankees, yes, on 6/12 are 7th in team ERA. They won't finish there. The depth issue is coming due now. They also lucked out with Sabathia being able to reinvent himself. You can credit their coaches with being able to help, but not all pitchers can do that.

They've got depth issues. so do the Dodgers. Maybe they'll plug them successfully, but it's false to say the Mets decision to take flyers on guys like Gonzalez is a financial one or even a wrong one. The problems with Reyes are somewhat off the field ones, given that he had a reasonable second half last year it wasn't completely off base to think he could be a tolerable backup at multiple positions. It's just a cop out. you can look at most teams and find these retread type guys getting shots, and ending up with quite a few AB. unrelated to the quality of the team.

[DocTee]

Carlos Baerga.

[Centerfield]

I'll be honest. I find your arguments hard to follow. Like, I think we use the same logic, but the more exchanges we have I find I'm not following anything you're saying.

And I'm not saying we deserve more as Mets fans. But I do believe that every team owner has a responsibility to put winning first. There are plenty of businesses where you can maximize profits and no one will say a word.

The team has a huge advantage from day 1 with the NY revenues. The fact that a great portion of that is going to satisfy the Wilpons' personal debt is a travesty.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: And I'm not saying we deserve more as Mets fans. But I do believe that every team owner has a responsibility to put winning first.

nope. And I don't believe any team does either. I believe the Wilpons are utilizing more of the ancillary revenue towards debts both team-based and non (though who knows how the accounting goes, maybe it's all team debt) but I don't believe for a second that say the Dodgers are spending money out of their pockets towards the team.

[nymr83]

I agree with CF, but for a very narrow reason: Every owner should have a public duty to fans to try and win because they have been granted an antitrust exemption and exclusive territory. If Wilpon doesn't have to try and win then the A's should be allowed to move to Brooklyn and compete wiyh him for fans.

[Edgy MD]

Well, that's just one terrible downside of the anti-trust exemption and territorial exclusivity. It insures teams against failure, ultimately incentivizing it to some extent.

It's a lousy exploitative system that should not be tolerated. But because it's largely the only one we've ever known, we tolerate it.

[Centerfield]

Nymr83 wrote: I agree with CF, but for a very narrow reason: Every owner should have a public duty to fans to try and win because they have been granted an antitrust exemption and exclusive territory. If Wilpon doesn't have to try and win then the A's should be allowed to move to Brooklyn and compete wiyh him for fans.

I think this is a very good reason.

[Ceetar]

Nymr83 wrote: I agree with CF, but for a very narrow reason: Every owner should have a public duty to fans to try and win because they have been granted an antitrust exemption and exclusive territory. If Wilpon doesn't have to try and win then the A's should be allowed to move to Brooklyn and compete wiyh him for fans.

I mean, I'm against the exemption but I don't think the Wilpons would really have any real threat. Things are so established. I think this might level things out for all two/three/four teams though. The highs wouldn't be quite as high as some residual fans would cling to the other teams, and the lows wouldn't be as low because you'd have the built in rivalries and proximity bonuses coupled with the additional 'home' games for the other teams.