Frayed Knot

The thing is, if LeBatard is abdicating his vote in some sort of attempt to make a point about the balloting process (assuming that's what he's doing) it's a shame that he doesn't have a national radio program, a national television program, and a newspaper column to lobby for those changes. Oh wait, he has all of those!! I'd take his ballot away if I were the BBWAA.

themetfairy wrote: Joke I saw - Gl@vine's plaque will be 8 inches wider than everyone else's. Now that's funny.

They really ought to lower the threshold for induction ... or make some kind of fundamental change in who votes for this. Or how they vote. This is embarrassing, every single year. They just elected three guys who were absolutely deserving and a bunch of others came close. I don't find this embarrassing at all. It seems like maybe five years ago, and for a long time leading up to then, the consensus among fans was that they were letting guys in too easily. Mets just sent out an email congratulating Glavine. Fuck them. You really find this objectionable? Looks like Dan LeBatard was the guy who gave his vote away to Deadspin. Not that it matters in the long run, but I find this more lazy than instructive.

As I recall, opinions were divided between THE RUSTY STAUB AND NAIL and RUSTY STAUB-ED IN THE BACK But I also understand that serious consideration was given to: GOOD RON HUNT-ING JAY HOOK-ED ON THE METS THE JIMMY PIERSALL EXPERIENCE MARV THRONEBERRY FARMS CLEON JONES' LOCKER THE JOE CHRISTOPHER STREET FAIR TIM HARKNESS ON THE EDGE OF TOWN JERRY GROTE TO THE MAX GUS BELL, BOOK AND CANDLESTICK and DUFFY DYER STRAITS ... but that could all be just rumor.

dinosaur jesus wrote: ... Whatever the other guys in Atlanta were taking, I don't see anything suspicious in Aaron's stats. I don't especially either, I'm just trying to point out that, based on the logic and levels of "proof" being used to disqualify other players, these voters can't stay consistent while giving Hank a pass based on the circumstantial evidence surrounding him. Chass in particular is acting as the hanging judge on Piazza based on less than what I can concoct against Aaron if I were so inclined. Then there's that guy whose ballot listed Morris only based on the idea that, as far as he's concerned, everyone from the steroid era is ineligible!. Given House's admissions, the contemporaneous and somewhat unusual rise in several of his aging teammates, and his comments that numerous guys on all teams in that era were partaking and/or experimenting, does he really want to try and make the case that the "steroid era" has a specifically defined and agreed upon starting and ending point or that Morris didn't at least partially coincide with it? Point also being that if these PED-absolutists are going to cite Brady Anderson's out of the blue 50 HR season as iron-clad proof of his cheating how do they let Davey's '73 season (or Maris's '61 for that matter - he never hit 40 except for that year) pass without comment? Also, staying with the guilt-by-association logic here, considering that there were a dozen major leaguers and various minor league players suspended this past year (hell, a top Minnesota prospect was just nabbed last Saturday) it looks like Miguel Cabrera and Justin Verlander are tainted too because, whenever the steroid era started, it sure ain't over.

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Well, the Braves moved into a stadium called "The Launching Pad," which probably didn't hurt. (Then again, what year did they move into that stadium? 1968? Several years before the 1973 offensive burst.) Then again, Mantle popped a bunch of homers into that ridiculously short porch in MFYS I. That stadium--originally just Atlanta Stadium and later dubbed Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium--was pre-built for the Braves move in 1966. And while it was a good HR park (people forget that, prior to the moves out west to Denver & Phoenix, Atlanta was the ML city at the highest elevation for many years) it wasn't THAT out of the ordinary and it certainly wasn't something that would have suddenly inflated HR stats seven years into its lifespan. Wonder how many homers Mays lost to that deep centerfield at the Polo Grounds. Probably not as many as some of his fans like to think. I've read studies on this before and, IIRC, it's tough to make the case for more than a few dozen in total. Davey seems like a "tell it like it is" kind of guy. Has he very talked about that 43-homer season in relation to PEDs? Not that I know of. And there's certainly no upside in ever doing so even for someone as yappy as Davey, particularly since he knows he'd automatically be indicting Aaron just by bringing it up even if he swore while telling the story that Hank never took anything stronger than a milkshake.

Back to Chass for a minute and his disavowal of any player with tenuous or even rumored steroid connections; it all reminds me of former pitcher Tom House talking about how he and several other early '70s Atlanta Braves were taking all kinds of stuff saying that "performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s" and that they were taking 'amphetamines, human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find in order to keep up with the competition'. All of which brings to mind his teammate Hank Aaron who, while virtually tied with Mays & Mantle for career HRs through age 34 [HA = 510; WM = 505; MM = 496], suddenly out-homered those two 245 to 155 (Mays) to 40 (Mantle) after that age. Aaron also had his highest HR season ever at age 37, something that normally doesn't happen but did here, perhaps not coincidentally around the same time House admitted that a number of his teammates were "doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses". It was also in 1973 that the Braves boasted three 40+ HR guys including Davey Johnson who clubbed 43 despite never having hit more than 18 before or after. Is any of this proof? No, but it's at least as damning as the stuff Chass is using to argue for outright bans on more recent players.

Mattingly extended in La-La Land through 2016

Ceetar wrote: That's actually surprisingly high given the quality of the paper. wow. Of course it's more the size of the paper than the quality - but, yeah, I was surprised they had that many as well. Davidoff, King, Sherman & Vaccaro were no-brainers, but I have no idea who Burke is; Puma I wouldn't have thought was on the beat for the required ten years (maybe he wrote for a while under his non-porn name too); and I wouldn't have thought Serby knew what a baseball was much less covered it for a decade.

FWIW, Nine different NY Post writers have ballots (Nine? ... who knew?) and they made them all public. Don Burke? Ken Davidoff Mark Hale Kevin Kernan Joel Sherman George King Mike Puma Steve Serby (Really? .... I've never seen him deal with anything but football) Mike Vaccaro Six of them filled out the full complement of ten names, with the others going 8, 7 & 5 All nine went for both Maddux & Glavine. Eight each checked off Piazza & Thomas. Bonds appeared on Seven. Biggio & Clemens on six each.

I'm not saying that vote was wrong necessarily, only that when the guy who got the 18th most time on the mound finishes 11th overall it does pretty much emphasize your statement about a drop-off after the first ten. Personally I think that the amount of playing time has to be a significant consideration. For better or worse, those who did get the ABs and the IPs are the guys who made up the bulk of the 2013 Mets and devaluing them (by over-valuing part-timers) because we wish someone else was in there instead I believe at least partially mis-applies the goal of this little project. Also, just as a general idea, I find projecting small samples as a sign of what a given player would have done if granted more playing time is a bit too faulty and speculative. With Mejia in particular, there's only so much impact one can have with just 5 mid-season starts including the last one when he was pulled after the 3rd inning never to return for the season. Obviously there's always a trade-off between time and productively and there are no rules about how much to weight either.

Which accounts for the fact that your 11th place guy is one who pitched all of 27 innings.

These are the sort of players the Mets have reportedly sought (and, if true, been rejected for) in exchange for Ike: Eduardo Rodriguez -- LHP in Balt system; turns 21 in April; 10-7; 3.41 in 25 starts between High-A & AA in 2013 Nick Kingham -- RHP in Pitt system; 22 y/o; 9-6 w/2.81 ERA over 25 starts between High-A & AA Tyler Thornburg -- RHP; 25 y/o; parts of 2 ML seasons w/Milwaukee; 26 games / 10 starts; 2.64 ERA, 1.21 WHiP

Ashie62 wrote: I'm sweating the idea that if D'Arnaud goes down we might need a C for 300 PA or some sick number.... I miss John Buck.. Buck hit .213 w/5 HRs after April last year so don't go missing him too much.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Do you still count the Schaefer results as one of the voters? Yes

OK this time I actually mean it -- I'm going to close this up by the end of the week. So if anyone has anything to add, update, change, or argue, do so soon or forever hold your peace ... or your piece ... or your pleats.

Was considered a decent up-and-comer with the Rangers a couple years back, but has never really flourished during his ML time.

A 1960s Giants game (sort of) starting around the 4:30 mark [youtube:2eipbgy6]G68QW7E3GEk[/youtube:2eipbgy6]

Aubrey Huff following a 13 year career with five teams, mostly the Rays, most recently the Giants.

Coleman's announcing could rival Ralph in quantity of malapropisms. Nice careers: on the field, in the booth, and in the military.

Recent track record of staying on the field. Drew turns 31 in March but hasn't had a 500+ AB season since he was 27

Benjamin Grimm wrote: When is the deadline for him accepting/rejecting that $14 million? I'm not sure. Boston, I suppose, could reach a point where they'd make other plans and simply withdraw it. I assume that would then result in them not gaining the draft pick if and when he signs elsewhere.

Yeah, the problem with luring him via a short term deal is that he's got that 1-year/$14.1mil offer already in his pocket. So unless the Mets were willing to go purdy durn high for say two years, he'd probably just be tempted to take Boston's qualifying offer and do the FA deal again next year.

I know the Mets were shot down in a Davis-for-Rodriguez suggestion; not sure if they ever offered Murphy. Eduardo Rodriguez BA lists Rodriguez 3rd on the list of Baltimore prospects, but their # 1 & 2 are recent high draft picks Kevin Gausman (4th overall 2012) & Dylan Bundy (4th overall 2011) so he's probably higher than most #3's would be on these type of lists even if he is technically Baltimore's 3rd best pitching prospect. Only 20 y/o but already a partial season (11 starts - 60 innings) of AA time under his belt with decent stats. Not surprising that the O's would be holding out for somebody more reliable than Ike.

I wonder if the writings of say Jim Bouton and others about the rampant use of "greenies" ever informed a Chass ballot? Or the stories about Mays using all kinds of substances as a rubbing lotion and god knows what else?