Cora v. Pelfrey

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I don't think Cora - or anyone for that matter - needs to check the stat sheets before deciding whether or not he's allowed to say something. I agree with you. But Cora hitting .280 correlates stronger with the Mets winning than whether or not Pelfrey's joking with a reporter. Therefore, if Cora wants to win, maybe he should hold up his end of the deal by figuring out how to hit .280 instead of worrying whether Pelfrey prefers sausage or pepperoni on his pizza. Right, because the acts of what to say in a locker room and hitting better are like choices one merely has to decide to make in order to carry them out.

You're right. But so what? Like Leiter wrote a few posts above, who the hell cares that Pelfrey joked with a reporter? I guarantee you that Cora's batting average is hurting the Mets more than Pelfrey's less than somber mood.

[Frayed Knot]

Yeah I get it, especially seeing as how this is the fourth time in four posts you've inserted Cora's stats as part of the argument while trying to claim in between that you don't actually mean it.

And questioning how someone acts in certain situations surrounding the team's wins and losses isn't the same as saying they don't care about winning, it's merely questioning how they go about it or how they accept the results. I have no problem with a player doing that and I'm not going to means-test* the participants in order to decide whose side I'm on. Accept that argument or reject it, but to choose sides based on the BA of which guy is on which side is stupid, and if that's not what you're doing then maybe ceasing to bring it up each time would be a real good start.








* Plus, if we apply the means test based on results from the last few weeks then Pelfrey needs to sit in his corner quietly until maybe Labor Day.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm all mixed up here. I don't understand the nature of our disagreement. Cora can say whatever the hell he wants to say. But it seems to me that it takes a lot of balls for a crappy sub .250 below league average for his entire crappy career crappy hitter to criticize Pelfrey for joking with a reporter. Whether or not the article specifically said so or not, Cora's clearly questioning Pelfrey's heart or desire. But this is the only way that Cora's ever gonna get favorable press: by feeding into the old wive's tale about how Cora's character should override the fact that he sucks. Of course, he'll get that occasional clutch game-winning extra base hit too, but for every one of those, Cora's making like 30 or 45 outs.

[Zvon]

I feel like a few here:
Something needs to be said to get this team up and off its ass.
I don't care who says it.
It is preferable that it be someone on the team.
Better if the others will hear and possibly listen.

I'm not gonna say hang a "Mission Accomplished" banner behind Cora.
But if they knock out a ten game winning streak starting tonight,
I'll return here and do that thing.

[Frayed Knot]

I'm all mixed up here. I don't understand the nature of our disagreement.

I don't have a problem with what Cora did or said simply because he's a backup infielder who hits like a backup infielder. You clearly do.

Cora can say whatever the hell he wants to say. But it seems to me that it takes a lot of balls for a crappy sub .250 below league average for his entire crappy career crappy hitter to criticize Pelfrey for joking with a reporter.

And once again (5th time) with the on-field stats having a say in determining who can say what after you claim they don't.

Whether or not the article specifically said so or not, Cora's clearly questioning Pelfrey's heart or desire.

Not his heart desire but the way he goes about his business and reacts to bad days - or at least as to how he was doing so at that moment.

But this is the only way that Cora's ever gonna get favorable press: by feeding into the old wive's tale about how Cora's character should override the fact that he sucks. Of course, he'll get that occasional clutch game-winning extra base hit too, but for every one of those, Cora's making like 30 or 45 outs.

The fact that you created this whole back-story where the reasons behind why he said what he said are all disruptive and self-aggrandizing doesn't make it true, nor does linking it - not even for the sixth time now - to his pecking order in the offense.
If you think that certain members of the press are spinning this in a way where it must be true and accurate because it came from none other than Alex the Great THEN BLAME THEM!




I'm done here.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Something needs to be said to get this team up and off its ass. I don't care who says it. It is preferable that it be someone on the team. Better if the others will hear and possibly listen.

I disagree.

Contrary to what "Major League" might have you believe, this isn't football or hockey, where the harder one tries/hits/runs, the better the result. Baseball's a skill game of individuals; effort plays a role, but it's usually not the primary reason for success or failure (the very reason why Steinbrenner being an asshole about lack of trying or effort after his team loses in the World Series seems so ludicrous to us-- it's kind of a stupid tack to take).

So... maybe pretending that the losing is happening because they're "not playing the right way" helps certain-- or most-- guys get in the frame of mind to actually address their problems. But unless the entire team is jogging out ground balls or playing shallow flies like Hanley Ramirez after a turkey dinner, effort and accountability aren't the problem. The problem is, they're playing like shit; adjustments might help... so might random variance... but trying harder isn't necessarily it, and old-fashioned Patton pep talks really aren't.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm not gonna come down on any "right" way for two people I don't know to communicate anything, but I will say what little I know about ballplayers suggests that in general their major motivator is the respect of their teammates, and to the (unknown) extent that this matters even a little, maybe it makes Pelfrey think about how his behavior earns him that respect among at least one teammate. It was never said, but I would guess Jerry's last-minute rotation switching at the beginning of the year was intended to send a message to Pelfrey also.

I also don't really buy the idea Cora is play acting in order to polish his media image. I'd sooner argue that he's mad at Pelfrey for being chummy with "enemies" in the fourth estate who are all sharing a laugh now but in moments will be pounding away on their laptops, savaging them. Also, there's little to suggest that Cora's aura of regard is anything other than earned.

[G-Fafif]

This thread title makes me think Big Pelf is going up against that nice lady from the old coffee commercials...



...and is probably losing.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm still not sure what it is that Cora earned or why he earned whatever it is that he earned. All I know is that he sucks. And though I recognize the absolute necessity in having to have an Alex Cora on the team, having said that, If I were the manager, I'd hope to hell that I'd have to use Cora as seldom as is possible. Because the more playing time Alex Cora gets, the worse off the Mets are. That's why he's a backup. Because he's not good enough to play regularly. (He wasn't good enough to play regularly when he was a regular, either.) And I'm not gonna ignore his sub .300 OBP because now he gets respect for being the last guy on the team that'll joke with reporters. This is how Frank Cashen musta felt when Randy Niemann sprayed him with the bubbly.

[ashie62]

G-Fafif wrote: This thread title makes me think Big Pelf is going up against that nice lady from the old coffee commercials... ...and is probably losing.

She looks like a whiney bitch

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Ashie62 wrote: G-Fafif wrote: This thread title makes me think Big Pelf is going up against that nice lady from the old coffee commercials... ...and is probably losing. She looks like a whiney bitch

You'd be closer by saying "whiny witch." That's Margaret Hamilton, who scared the snot out of many a kid as the Wicked Witch of the West.

[G-Fafif]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Ashie62 wrote: G-Fafif wrote: This thread title makes me think Big Pelf is going up against that nice lady from the old coffee commercials... ...and is probably losing. She looks like a whiney bitch You'd be closer by saying "whiny witch." That's Margaret Hamilton, who scared the snot out of many a kid as the Wicked Witch of the West.

Which (or witch) I suppose the current Cora was trying to do in the clubhouse last night.

[ashie62]

We need more snot scarers.

[Ceetar]

You know, the more I hear about this the more it sounds like a completely bs story. Sounds like Cora wasn't directed it at Pelfrey (although he may have been backtracking today) but the media. Adam Rubin said cora looked pissy at the noise before Pelfrey even showed up (glad to know Rubin spends his time staring at Cora thinking "gee, this guy looks annoyed. why is he glaring at me?)


Sounds like Cora was depressed after the game and in a bad mood, and in roars the media, looking for quotes, making jokes, enjoying life. pissed Cora off more. misery loves company.

Love how Martino, who's the one that pointed the finger at Pelf anyway, jumps on the Cora bandwagon with a "He's right, it was too loud for a loss."

so my tweet to Andy?

Ceetar : @SurfingTheMets since you are the authority, what is the appropriate decibel level post loss? Post win? Different for close/blow out? #mets (in reply to SurfingTheMets)

[Zvon]

Something needs to be said to get this team up and off its ass. I don't care who says it. It is preferable that it be someone on the team. Better if the others will hear and possibly listen. I disagree. Contrary to what "Major League" might have you believe, this isn't football or hockey, where the harder one tries/hits/runs, the better the result. Baseball's a skill game of individuals; effort plays a role, but it's usually not the primary reason for success or failure (the very reason why Steinbrenner being an asshole about lack of trying or effort after his team loses in the World Series seems so ludicrous to us-- it's kind of a stupid tack to take). So... maybe pretending that the losing is happening because they're "not playing the right way" helps certain-- or most-- guys get in the frame of mind to actually address their problems. But unless the entire team is jogging out ground balls or playing shallow flies like Hanley Ramirez after a turkey dinner, effort and accountability aren't the problem. The problem is, they're playing like shit; adjustments might help... so might random variance... but trying harder isn't necessarily it, and old-fashioned Patton pep talks really aren't.

I'm okay with you disagreeing. I hear what you say there.
And I'd have to say that what's happening on the field, more specifically at the plate, is the primary reason for failure recently.
Right now though, I'll take anything at all that comes along and changes how things are going.
A black cat, sure. A manager gettin tossed, yea man. Whatever.
Anything at this point.
So I'm okay with what Cora said. I like it.
I'll even commend him for standing out.

And lets not overlook what he actually said:

Cora spouted an expletive in Spanish and raised his voice in the direction of Pelfrey and reporters as he de parted the clubhouse at Chase Field. "A little respect, please!" Cora snapped. "They stuck it up our [butts]."

No speech. Nothing about playing harder. Just an attitude that there should not be frivolity after (he might even be thinking in terms of the last few loses) a loss. Now after the press leaves, tell a joke or something, ease the stress. But while the press is still there and have their pads out, I agree with him. Act like a winning team that has lost should act. Even if its an act.
While there are other ears and eyes on you, you represent the Mets.
rEpReSeNt GaNgStAS!

[metirish]

It's my own fault I know , I switched to SNY thinking that perhaps the game would be on at an earlier hour , it wasn't but Loudmouths was on and there were the hosts going on about how great "future manager" Alex Cora is for speaking up yyybbb

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: You know, the more I hear about this the more it sounds like a completely bs story. Sounds like Cora wasn't directed it at Pelfrey (although he may have been backtracking today) but the media. Adam Rubin said cora looked pissy at the noise before Pelfrey even showed up (glad to know Rubin spends his time staring at Cora thinking "gee, this guy looks annoyed. why is he glaring at me?) Sounds like Cora was depressed after the game and in a bad mood, and in roars the media, looking for quotes, making jokes, enjoying life. pissed Cora off more. misery loves company. Love how Martino, who's the one that pointed the finger at Pelf anyway, jumps on the Cora bandwagon with a "He's right, it was too loud for a loss." so my tweet to Andy? Ceetar : @SurfingTheMets since you are the authority, what is the appropriate decibel level post loss? Post win? Different for close/blow out? #mets (in reply to SurfingTheMets)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Martino dodn't even I'd Pelfrey, and his reporting had no real point of view.

[ashie62]

metirish wrote: It's my own fault I know , I switched to SNY thinking that perhaps the game would be on at an earlier hour , it wasn't but Loudmouths was on and there were the hosts going on about how great "future manager" Alex Cora is for speaking up yyybbb

Future Dick's Sporting Goods Manager.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: You know, the more I hear about this the more it sounds like a completely bs story. Sounds like Cora wasn't directed it at Pelfrey (although he may have been backtracking today) but the media. Adam Rubin said cora looked pissy at the noise before Pelfrey even showed up (glad to know Rubin spends his time staring at Cora thinking "gee, this guy looks annoyed. why is he glaring at me?) Sounds like Cora was depressed after the game and in a bad mood, and in roars the media, looking for quotes, making jokes, enjoying life. pissed Cora off more. misery loves company. Love how Martino, who's the one that pointed the finger at Pelf anyway, jumps on the Cora bandwagon with a "He's right, it was too loud for a loss." so my tweet to Andy? Ceetar : @SurfingTheMets since you are the authority, what is the appropriate decibel level post loss? Post win? Different for close/blow out? #mets (in reply to SurfingTheMets)

Shouldn't you be asking Alex Cora instead of Martino, when it's appropriate to joke with reporters?

[nymr83]

But it seems more that the Mets' aches are self-inflicted � self-inserted, to use Cora's uncomfortable metaphor. The bats have completely vanished on the road trip

The difference between getting shut down by great pitchers (Lincecum, Zito) and being in a batting slump is solely the degree to which the writer wants a positive/negative spin on the team in his article.

[Zvon]

Update: According to Gary and Ron the reporters were talking with no one but each other, were just hangin out and joking in a group, making noise.
Cora gave em the what for.

[Zvon]

Nymr83 wrote: But it seems more that the Mets' aches are self-inflicted � self-inserted, to use Cora's uncomfortable metaphor. The bats have completely vanished on the road trip The difference between getting shut down by great pitchers (Lincecum, Zito) and being in a batting slump is solely the degree to which the writer wants a positive/negative spin on the team in his article.

worth a bounce to this page.

[Zvon]

So, who's embarrassed by this thread?
Raise your hands.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I began to regret this thread about 10 hours ago. In fact, I think I wasted my entire day here. But Cora still sucks. And if I was Mike Pelfrey and Cora tried to tell me when it was OK to joke with a reporter, I'd tell Cora and his tiny batting average to mind his own business.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think you've made your feelings clear on the matter.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I began to regret this thread about 10 hours ago. In fact, I think I wasted my entire day here. But Cora still sucks. And if I was Mike Pelfrey and Cora tried to tell me when it was OK to joke with a reporter, I'd tell Cora and his tiny batting average to mind his own business.

I agree you coulda stfu.

[Zvon]

Don't let that reporter continue to rile you brother.
What he reported never happened the way he reported it. Pelfrey was not a part of the picture
The reporter is sitting back and laughing somewhere cuz he wanted to push some buttons and he did.

And the rporters in the clubhouse who's shit Cora jumped on said that they were being too loud and they were sorry.

Core might suck.
We can debate this.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

dupe

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I began to regret this thread about 10 hours ago. In fact, I think I wasted my entire day here. But Cora still sucks. And if I was Mike Pelfrey and Cora tried to tell me when it was OK to joke with a reporter, I'd tell Cora and his tiny batting average to mind his own business. I agree you coulda stfu.

I coulda.

And probably shoulda.

[Zvon]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: dupe

I am NOT a dupe.
I am a TEAM LEADER!
I am a FUTURE MANAGER!
I am.....tired of this *YAWN