Meet Mister Positive

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Shut up and get people out.

]Wagner worried about Mets in '08 11/27/2007 8:50 PM ET By Marty Noble / MLB.com NEW YORK -- Part of the Mets' introduction to Billy Wagner two years ago was a warning. "I'm blunt," he told them. And he suggested if candor were upsetting, the club might be better off looking elsewhere for a relief pitcher. Undaunted, the Mets pursued Wagner, and now, in the middle of their four-year contract with him, they have a full-disclosure closer. What Wagner considers the truth about the Mets' 2007 and 2008 seasons came out unvarnished on Tuesday. Still exasperated by the final-month collapse that cost the team a place in the postseason, he said the Mets, as presently constituted, could be a third-place team. He wondered whether they could compensate for the departure of Tom Glavine without weakening themselves, cautioned against including Aaron Heilman in a trade, questioned the logic of not re-signing Paul Lo Duca and reiterated his concern with what he considered a lack of competitiveness among Mets players. "Someone asked me what I thought of our team," Wagner said in an interview with MLB.com. "I said, 'What team?' We've lost 13 games [Glavine's victory total], and now we are going have to give up something to get those games back. I'm afraid we're just going to create other holes if we give up a [Lastings] Milledge, a [Mike] Pelfrey or a Heilman." Wagner said: "I'm trying to be positive. I'm saying we have some good players. But I'm worried. The Braves are getting better, and the Phillies made a move [acquiring Brad Lidge]. We've brought back some people, and that's good. But losing Tom is big. It's a lot more than the 13 games he won. It's what he did for John Maine and Oliver Perez and how professional he was. People want to focus on one bad game or just the day-to-day stats. I do that myself when I read about football. By I'm involved in this, and I know how important [Glavine] was. We don't have him, and we don't even get to the last game with a chance. He was one of the few leaders we had. "The Mets didn't do anything wrong. I know he wanted to be home more. I understand that, but where does that leave us?" Wagner, who readily acknowledged his own role in the Mets' steep decline, is most concerned about the bullpen, not because it's his area, but because he believes it is the team's most critical component. He is opposed to dealing Heilman, no matter which of the front-of-the-rotation starters the Mets have targeted -- Johan Santana or Dan Haren -- would be imported. "We're down 13 games already, plus all the games Tom deserved to win," he said. "Without Aaron, it'd be like another 10 or 12. It would be a big chance to take. Without Aaron, [the bullpen] don't even exist. No way you can trade him." Wagner's concerns go beyond the personnel, to the Mets' thoughts of using Orlando Hernandez in relief and other relievers' roles. "[Hernandez] pitches great for five games and then can't pitch for two weeks," Wagner said. "If we put him in the bullpen, we're going to ask him to pitch three times a week. Can he take that?" Thoughts of El Duque pitching in relief prompted other thoughts of bullpen assignments. Wagner said: "In Willie Randolph's bullpen, it's different. He wants guys to be able to go 2 2/3 innings or one-third of an inning or in between. That's how he wants it. But guys just want to know, so they can prepare themselves and be comfortable." Wagner said he and Randolph discussed relief roles several times during the season and that, more recently, general manager Omar Minaya and COO Jeff Wilpon subsequently have asked him about roles. "I understand what Willie wants -- for a lot of guys to be able to pitch whenever they're needed for as long as he needs them. I'm not sure you can have that. Guys are used to having roles. They'll take the ball because that's what the job is and that's what the manager wants. But the idea is to get them into situations where they can be successful. I mean, you wouldn't ask Carlos Delgado to bunt." The change of catchers has unsettled Wagner as well. He has no problem with Johnny Estrada, who was acquired in trade last week. But he believed Lo Duca was an integral component in the team dynamic. "Maybe he wasn't the best receiver. I don't know. But Paulie competed," Wagner said. "He battled every day, and we had some guys who didn't show up every day. They were satisfied if they got a hit and we lost. Paul was [angry] if he had four hits and we lost. And every one of the pitchers trusted him. He was a big part of what we did [in 2006], and now he's gone, too. ... It just worries me that we're missing some important guys." This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

[nymr83]

please billy, don't say "he battled." also please tell us who "didn't show up every day." it would be fun to hear.

[Guest Edgy DC]

His point about the bullpen roles isn't lost.

His math regarding Glavine is.

[metirish]

I think he's overstating the Glavine loss, I suppose the only thing that might surprise me amongst the cliched driven drivel about his team mates is him talking about Milledge in that way.

Billy might be upset with losing his friends from the team, probably be begging Omar to keep Heilman.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I would trade Wagner for a guy who'd give us 13 wins in a second.

[DocTee]

Well said, Johnny. 13 wins are a lot harder to come by than 30 saves.

[Guest Kid Carsey]

Hard to disagree with a lot of what he says, I just think it's better left unsaid.

Kinda throws Willie under the zamboni with the 2 2/3 then 1/3 innings and I'm
sure if Jeff (good lord, I thought he was done talking baseball), Omar, and
Willie are discussing stuff with him it's probably better not told to Mr. Noble
during the winter for everyone to chew on.

[Guest Edgy DC]

On the other hand, we need stuff to chew on. Last night, after job number one and number two were over, I sleepwalked through cellophane wrapping a half a dozen windows.

I kept myself awake and engaged by humming "Meet the Mets" and thinking about Billy Wagner and bullpen roles.

I agree it doesn't help the team. But I'm what's important.

[metirish]

It's one thing a sports journalist complaining about Randolph's bullpen management but now Wagner does it again, is he that bad and does he have to change his style of management ?

[Guest sharpie]

I can't remember any relievers going 2 2/3 innings at any point this past season other than in that 17-inning (or whatever it was) game.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Aaron Sele, mopup dude

Yeah, that's a fair point. He's obviously exaggerating. But his larger point is fair, considering Randolph argued at several times during the season that nobody in the bullpen has a specific role, save for Wagner. Feliciano is a good example of a guy who might throw 7 pitches one outing and 27 the next.

Relief appearances of 8 outs or more by Mets in 2007:

1. April 11 against Phiadelphia, Aaron Sele goes 4.1 innings in relief of bizarre 2.2-innng Oliver Perez start, in which he gave up just one hit, but walked seven.



2. July 8 in Houston, Sele (again) goes 2.2 innings in relief of a grossly inneffective Dave Williams. The Met bullpen was white hot during this period, and Sele and Schoeneweis combined for 4.2 innings of scoreless one-hit ball. Too late, as the Mets lost 8-3.



3. July 19 in Los Angeles, Sele (once more) goes 3.0 innings in a slugfest after Tom Glavine gets chased after two. He gives up one unearned run and picks up the win as the Mets outpound the Dodgers 13-9. Ruben Gotay is hitting a ton during this period. The game is also notable because the Mets had two outfield assists at third base, Shawn Green nailing Jeff Kent, and Carlos Beltran pegging Nomar Garciaparra.



4. August 4 in Chicago, Sele isn't smelly, going 3.1 scoreless innings after John Maine coughs up six in the first two innings. Sosa and Schoeneweis each tack on a perfect inning as the pen goes 5.1 scoreless. Mets bats show no heart against Ted Lily, and the good guys lose, 6-2.

The fact that these four appearances belong to one guy runs counter to Wagner's position, but I still think it clearly has a basis.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Edgy wrote...
"August 4 in Chicago, Sele isn't smelly, going 3.1 scoreless innings after John Maine coughs up six in the first two innings. Sosa and Schoeneweis each tack on a perfect inning as the pen goes 5.1 scoreless. Mets bats show no heart against Ted Lily, and the good guys lose, 6-2."

Alas, one of the two times I was able to see the Mets in person this year. Maine had one melt-down inning, with most runs coming with two outs. I think the Cubs only scored in one inning. When Sele came in, I remember telling my buddy "Here come the floodgates" but he pitched well.

[Frayed Knot]

Relievers complaining about a lack of defined roles is nothing new and is probably about as common as ... well as fans comlaining that the manager is too wedded to specific roles for his bullpen guys.

[Vic Sage]

Billy, you want to have defined roles for the bullpen? OK, here it is:

"hey youse guys... prepare everyday like your going to pitch that day. And if you're brought into a game, pitch to every hitter like he's the only hitter you're going to face, and if you don't get him out, he'll go to your house and shoot your dog. And keep facing each hitter like that, until we win, we lose, or Willie takes you out of the game."

Is that clear enough, you dickhead?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I like to think Wagner --- whose role was fine and comfortable and easy --- is trying to be a good teammtate, trying to use his seniority and security to defend his fellow penners and say what they can't.

[Vic Sage]

i think that's true.

But it doesn't change my point about roles or my assessment of Mr. Wagner as a dickhead.