IGT Mets vs Giants 4-25-2006 Turn around starts TONIGHT!

[Frayed Knot]

Trax has a better BA than Cliff at this point too but I'm not PH-ing the former for the latter.

And if we're going to beatup Valentin and point out at every opportunity how he's suxxed in his (brief) time here can we at least acknowledge that he has close to 500 XBHs in his career and can switch-hit and play several positions?
Look, I want young/cheap/5-tool players on my bench just like anyone else but those seem to be in short supply right now. So before we dump JV in the nearest trashcan and have hurlers hit in his stead, let's realize that if he's here he's going to be used and if he's not we'll need a replacement first -- prefereably one who can fill in at several roles and can swing from the left side with at least the potential of a little pop.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I could look up the batting averages too. No need to insult my point.

My apologies. I was trying to insult Valentin's bat.

]Also kind of a narrow and selective data set.

Is it? My point is that Valentin is in a deep dark slump who hasn't hit a lick since Spring Training started. Continuing to use him as our primary pinch hitter is generally dumb. Using him to pinch hit for a guy who'd shut down the Giants for 6 innings and had only thrown 73 pitches is specifically dumb.

The fact that Trach's career numbers are better than Valentin's last 55 plate appearances is just the final nail in the coffin, IMO.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Is it?

Yes.

]My point is that Valentin is in a deep dark slump who hasn't hit a lick since Spring Training started.

I've noticed. The point you articulated was that Trachsel was a better bet to plate a run because his career and brief season OPS was better than Valentin's brief season OPS --- a huge and insulting leap of logic that ignores Valentin's career history and lefty-righty matchups.

]Continuing to use him as our primary pinch hitter is generally dumb.

We're not.

]Using him to pinch hit for a guy who'd shut down the Giants for 6 innings and had only thrown 73 pitches is specifically dumb.

It was a 2-1 game with the most dangerous hitter since Babe Ruth on the other bench and one homer into his evening. It's defensible. I would have gone perhaps with the actual primary pinch hitter, Julio Franco.

]The fact that Trach's career numbers are better than Valentin's last 55 plate appearances is just the final nail in the coffin, IMO.

It's the nail I'm arging against. See the Cliff Floyd analogy.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Frayed Knot wrote: Trax has a better BA than Cliff at this point too but I'm not PH-ing the former for the latter.

That isn't even apples to oranges, it's like apples to orangutans. I didn't suggest that Trachsel pinch hit for anyone. I suggested that we NOT pinch hit Valentin for him because Trachs was pitching very well and Valentin has sucked his year.

And the difference between Cliff and Valentin is that Cliff is relatively young and had a great 2005 and furthermore has been swinging the bat well lately.

Valentin, on the other hand, is old and had a miserable 2005, managing only the following line: .170 AVG/.326 OBP/.265 SLG/.591 OPS

He's displayed no pop since 2004, and is no longer a good defender. His only two defensive positions are 3B and SS, both of which Woody is far more capable at.

Listen, I was a fan of the signing. We gambled that he had a little something left, but it's looking like this move didn't pay out. Not a huge deal, but we're going to have to cut bait and upgrade soon.

[Guest Rotblatt]

It's times like these I think Sal's right. Y'all are batshit crazy.

]I've noticed. The point you articulated was that Trachsel was a better bet to plate a run because his career and brief season OPS was better than Valentin's brief season OPS --- a huge and insulting leap of logic that ignores Valentin's career history and lefty-righty matchups.

I apologize for trying to make my point through light-hearted use of hyperbole. It never seems to work. Here, I'll try an equation:

Trachsel allowing 1 run on 73 pitches over 6 innings + Valentin slumping (as illustrated by my comparison to Trachsel) = leave Trachsel in.

]We're not.

Edgy, Valentin's pinch hit 13 times. Franco's pinch hit 10 times.

]It was a 2-1 game with the most dangerous hitter since Babe Ruth on the other bench and one homer into his evening. It's defensible. I would have gone perhaps with the actual primary pinch hitter, Julio Franco.

It's defensible to pinch hit for Trachsel. It is NOT, IMO, defensible to pinch hit JOSE VALENTIN for Trachsel.

Regarding your second point, see # of pinch hitting appearances above.

]It's the nail I'm arging against. See the Cliff Floyd analogy.

An "analogy" which makes no sense whatsoever, as I never advocated using Trachsel as a pinch hitter instead of Valentin.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]I apologize for trying to make my point through light-hearted use of hyperbole. It never seems to work.

Well, you backed it up with stats.

]Edgy, Valentin's pinch hit 13 times. Franco's pinch hit 10 times.

Is the primary pinch-hitter the most frequent one or the one who gets the key slots? If David Weathers gets in more games and throws more innings for the 2002 Mets than Armando Benitez, is he the primary reliever?

]It's defensible to pinch hit for Trachsel. It is NOT, IMO, defensible to pinch hit JOSE VALENTIN for Trachsel.

Then fine, he chose the wrong guy. The point we're disagreeing on remains or doesn't remain whether Trachsel is an actual better bet to bring a run home than Valentin.

]An "analogy" which makes no sense whatsoever, as I never advocated using Trachsel as a pinch hitter instead of Valentin.

It makes plenty of sense, despite that distinction. Consider it rather thusly: If Floyd was the available pinch-hitter sent up, would he be considered a downgrade from Trachsel?

If you're kidding, you're kidding. I don't know why you go all mad and name-calling when you make a statistical argument, and rather than say it's lighthearted hyperbole when it's challenged, you back it up. Are we arguing or not? I don't know. You're serious if you're correct and joking if you're incorrect?

[Frayed Knot]

I realize you weren't advocating PH-ing Trax for Floyd but you were advocating using a snap-shot of current stats to "prove" who had a better chance of driving in a big run. Based solely on that, Trax had a better chance than Floyd too.

I could make arguments both for & against PH-ing in that spot last night. Trax was pitching well and was tough to remove but so is our pen which makes that risk more palatable. As I said in the IGT, what I was against was first giving up the out by having Chavez bunt and then PH-ing after you were down to 2 outs. Hell, send the runner (Matsui I think), hit-&-run, do anything to give yourself 2 chances at it rather than leaving it up to a choice of cold hitter - vs - pitcher as a last resort.

]I was a fan of the [Valentin] signing. We gambled that he had a little something left, but it's looking like this move didn't pay out. Not a huge deal, but we're going to have to cut bait and upgrade soon.

Hey, I'm all for upgrades too - wherever and whenever I can find them. But, in the meantime, Valentin is our main - hell ONLY - LH/PH on the bench and you can't just lock him in the bathroom and pledge never to use him.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Edgy DC wrote: ]I apologize for trying to make my point through light-hearted use of hyperbole. It never seems to work. Well, you backed it up with stats.

Well, apparently you don't find "Au contraire" as hilarious as I do. And don't think that the fact that even such an obvious statement as JD's "Well, Valentin was still more likely to drive the run in" is actually questionable because Valentin has been so incredibly crappy since the Spring.

] ]Edgy, Valentin's pinch hit 13 times. Franco's pinch hit 10 times. Is the primary pinch-hitter the most frequent one or the one who gets the key slots? If David Weathers gets in more games and throws more innings for the 2002 Mets than Armando Benitez, is he the primary reliever?

I see. So we're saving Franco for the important spots, like when we're up by a run, it's late in the game, there are 2 on with 2 out, and the best hitter since Babe Ruth is batting for the other team?

] ]It's defensible to pinch hit for Trachsel. It is NOT, IMO, defensible to pinch hit JOSE VALENTIN for Trachsel. Then fine, he chose the wrong guy. The point we're disagreeing on remains or doesn't remain whether Trachsel is an actual better bet to bring a run home than Valentin.

Maybe that's what your hung up on, but my point all along has been:

]It made no sense to me last night, especially given just how bad Valentin's been with the bat this season. I mean, maybe if he had put Beltran in there, but Valentin?

] ]An "analogy" which makes no sense whatsoever, as I never advocated using Trachsel as a pinch hitter instead of Valentin. It makes plenty of sense, despite that distinction. Consider it rather thusly: If Floyd was the available pinch-hitter sent up, would he be considered a downgrade from Trachsel?

Of course not, for the reason I stated here:

]And the difference between Cliff and Valentin is that Cliff is relatively young and had a great 2005 and furthermore has been swinging the bat well lately.

]If you're kidding, you're kidding. I don't know why you go all mad and name-calling when you make a statistical argument, and rather than say it's lighthearted hyperbole when it's challenged, you back it up. Are we arguing or not? I don't know. You're serious if you're correct and joking if you're incorrect?

I go "all mad and name-calling" when when such a simple and obvious observation--that it was stupid to pinch hit Valentin for Trachsel last night--somehow turns contentious.

I mean, I flat out TOLD you what my point was:

]Using him to pinch hit for a guy who'd shut down the Giants for 6 innings and had only thrown 73 pitches is specifically dumb.

which you actually QUOTED right before saying:

]The point you articulated was that Trachsel was a better bet to plate a run because his career and brief season OPS was better than Valentin's brief season OPS --- a huge and insulting leap of logic that ignores Valentin's career history and lefty-righty matchups.

Read more, post less, Edgy.