Trade tracker Kaz vs Victor InNameOnly

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

So far, Victor is ahead in BB/SO ratio.

ERA, not so much. W/L record, not so much. Salary, not so much. Building a staff for the future. not so much. Bubbling personality, not so much.

Year..TEAM... W....L...BB..SO....ERA
2006 TB ........2....1 ...11... 11....4.07
2006 NYM..... 1... 1......6.... 7.....9.00

In retrospect, the trading deadline of '04, when the Mets dealt off two of their most exciting younger players for older mediocrities who failed to win me over since then, in a vain and misguided attempt to win a 2004 playoff spot was clearly when they lost me.

I just can't forgive that colossal, arrogant and obstinate denseness. I was angry at the time and that anger has just festered.

[Guest vtmet]

A much less scrutinized trade that happened at the same time but...our backup OFers are probably the saddest collection of offensive specimens in MLB...how would Ty Wiggington look right now as our Utility Man (can play 1B, 2B, 3B, LF or RF)? He's hitting .293 with 7 HRs, 2 doubles, 17 RBI and 10 runs scored....What have Diaz, Chavez, Valentin, etc combined for?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

vtmet wrote: A much less scrutinized trade that happened at the same time but...our backup OFers are probably the saddest collection of offensive specimens in MLB...how would Ty Wiggington look right now as our Utility Man (can play 1B, 2B, 3B, LF or RF)? He's hitting .293 with 7 HRs, 2 doubles, 17 RBI and 10 runs scored....What have Diaz, Chavez, Valentin, etc combined for?

I have links to Wiggy's phenomenal start to 2006 in the "Can we trade Julio for him?" thread, if you're interested, vtmet. When you treat your best young players as worthless dreck, and trade them off wholesale for truly worthless dreck, do you really deserve to win? Not in my view.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

In my misguided attempts to make a table above, I mistakenly attributed Kaz's stats incorrectly. In fact, he's third in the AL in Ks with 23, and 10th in BB with 9. So no edge at all for Victor.

[Guest vtmet]

Zambrano does have 1 advantage over Kaz...Kazmir can't switch hit, can he?

[Guest old original jb]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I just can't forgive that colossal, arrogant and obstinate denseness. I was angry at the time and that anger has just festered.

The festering is really showing.
I think we should start calling you "uncle Fester".

By the way, both of these trades were made by a previous administration.
This is kind of like saying you hate Clinton because of what elder George Bush did, or (for you Republicans out there) GWB for what Clinton did.

[nymr83]

I think thats a flawed analogy because its all one administration (the Wilpons) with a different front man.

[Elster88]

If you're going to blame the Wilpons for the bad deals then you also have to credit them for the team which is currently 12-6.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Okey-dokey. Just remember that you hold them responsible for the w-l record in October.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

And last October.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

And the October before that.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

And the October before that.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

And the ...Elster? Hello, Elster? Damn, he was here a few minutes ago....

[Guest old original jb]

Elster88 wrote: If you're going to blame the Wilpons for the bad deals then you also have to credit them for the team which is currently 12-6.

Well sure, but they were 12-5 yesterday.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Okey-dokey. Just remember that you hold them responsible for the w-l record in October.

Who is this "you"?

I was telling anyone who wants to blame the Wilpons that they also must then credit them.

Was I talking about myself? Did I say that I give them credit one way or the other?

No, I didn't.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Okay, then it's me you're talking about. I blame the WIlpons for the poorly run organization that makes laughable trades that most 12 year old cringe upon hearing, that work out about as often as a comet comes around the sun, and I credit them with the W-L record for the last half-decade while pissing away their money and claiming that spending money doesn't work.

[Elster88]

I was talking to Nymr. I don't really care what you blame the Wilpons for.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: I was talking to Nymr. I don't really care what you blame the Wilpons for.

You quote me, and when I respond to you you say you weren't talking to me? You're a strange and silly man.

[Elster88]

Yes, the one where I quoted you was addressed to you. My original response which you remarked on was addressed to Nymr. Shirley you understand this?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

No. You're getting stranger and sillier with every post you make.

[nymr83]

]I was telling anyone who wants to blame the Wilpons that they also must then credit them.

The amount of blame and credit to spread around varioes from team to team, but on ALL teams the owner isn't a non-factor which is why you can't dismiss the owner's role, i was only pointing out the flaw in the politics analogy.

If the Mets succeed (or fail) the credit (or blame) goes to BOTH the owner and the GM (and his staff.) The credit/blame can also be shared with a previous GM administration if their moves were the cause for success/failure at least in part. I think a GM always needs to be given a couple of years before you stop blaming things on and crediting things to the former GM.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Just thought I'd close the book on this thread. NYMR83's last remark is interesting, though, implying as it does that it's legitimate to hold previous GMs responsible for mistakes on their watch for a few years, but where does ownership come in? One of my problems with not blaming the Wilpons is that, at worst, their defenders claim, "The Wilpons have to shoulder some of the blame," but what tangible form does that shouldering imply?

See, to me, if I fuck up by hiring a completely incompetent fuckup who fucks up my fucked-up team until it's totally fucked-up, sure, I need to take some verbal blame. But MUCH MORE IMPORTANT, I also need to make it up to my customers. It's easy to say, "Yeah, I fucked up in hiring that fuckup" (not that you get a lot of that from the Wilpons) but it's painful to say "HHmmmm, allocating huge parts of the budget to commit to Benson/Matsui/Alomar/whoever foolishly has made this a fucked-up ballteam--I need to spend more than I'd expected to give the fans a pitcher/2b man/2b man/whoever more in line with what they thought they were getting when I allowed this fuckup to make that stupid deal."

Maybe they'll make a little less profit this year? Maybe. But they'll make it back when the Mets win another championship.

By my calculations, that should be uh, where's that calculator? This thing must be broken, these numbers can't be right...

[Guest cleonjones11]

Out of respect to Nolan Ryan...Amos Otis and countless others can we end this thread. This case is closed..Until Kazmir signs with the MFY's

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Well, maybe one more. Sorta like old home week for discarded Mets prospects.

[Guest old original jb]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Well, maybe one more. Sorta like old home week for discarded Mets prospects.

You can't discount two mediocre to poor years since he was traded. It's nice to see that he's doing well, but, as you like to say, "who knew?"

Wait, on second thought, Which way to Shea?

[metirish]

Kazmir is on Baseball Tonight right now, says he knew he had great stuff leaving the pen, could throw his pitches anywhere he wanted, sounds not cocky but a very confident kid.....

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

old original jb wrote: but, as you like to say, "who knew?"

You really want my answer to that?

[Theoldmole]

From todays Times:

]For the third straight summer, the Mets are being bombarded by the same question, as if played on an endless talk-radio loop. "Where would you be if you had not made that (fill in the blank) trade?"

I can fill in the blank.

]fucking

[smg58]

I'm not sure people were asking that the past two summers -- the deal happened at the end of July two years ago, and last year at this time Zambrano was doing pretty well. This year, given the Mets' contending position and shaky back of the rotation, it's unfortunately a very fair question to ask.

[Willets Point]

bump?