Can we trade Julio for him?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: I'd rather have Benson..

Huh.You don't think this club need a powerhiitting 2b man more than they need a starting pitcher?

Elster88 wrote: They ain't trading Wiggy for Julio. They don't want Julio.

Huh. Why not, do you suppose? Do you think somebody got rubed somewhere along the Wiggy-for-Benson-for-Julio road? Who, oh who, might that someone be, I wonder? All that remains, really, is to trade Julio for a bag of baseballs, and our work here will be done.

[nymr83]

="Bret Sabermetric"] ="Elster88"]I'd rather have Benson.. Huh.You don't think this club need a powerhiitting 2b man more than they need a starting pitcher? ="Elster88"]They ain't trading Wiggy for Julio. They don't want Julio. Huh. Why not, do you suppose? Do you think somebody got rubed somewhere along the Wiggy-for-Benson-for-Julio road? Who, oh who, might that someone be, I wonder? All that remains, really, is to trade Julio for a bag of baseballs, and our work here will be done.

For someone who knocks the Mets for their so-called "CYA moves" it's pretty weak for you to be looking at the Benson trade as Wiggy for Julio. the Mets didn't have Wiggington on their roster in January 2006, They had Kris Benson. Are you suggesting they shouldn't have dealt Benson because of who they traded to get him?
Isn't that the same twisted logic that says "we've gotta start Zambrano because we traded Kazmir for him"?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

No, I'm suggesting they made a bad deal --forced, no planning, no long range thinking, no real strategic foresight--in acquiring Benson, and then made a worse one in dumping him. if they had hung on to him, foreseeing a day when they might need a 2b man/3b man/ corner OF/ 1B utililty guy who hits the living pis out the ball, hustles constantly, and plays for cheap, they might have saved a few bucks on all the utility players they;'ve been running in and out of here like a Marx brothers movie, or better yet put Wiggy on 2b and saved a fortune on signing Matsui in the first place.

Either these guys were so dumb they couldn't see that Wright was going to make a serious move on 3b pretty soon, and that Wiggy might just slide over to 2b, and they could leave Reyes at short and not bother fucking with his development (God knows what harm that did), giving them a cheap holmegrown infield they never had to give another thought to so they could devote their brainpower and wallets to fixing the pitching problem, maybe by bidding on Benson in the offseason, when they could have picked him (or someone similar) up for about what they ended up paying Benson anyway. That's what pisses me off about Wiggy--they had a hole at 2B, they had a solution for that hole, and they give up on the solution because of some CYA move that they were making a pennant run in 2004. Clueless, I tell you, clueless. So now they're stuck iwth this hopeless dipshit Matsui.

Christ, they could have picked up Wigggy on waivers this winter. The Pirates were giving him away. Explain that move to me.

[nymr83]

]Christ, they could have picked up Wigggy on waivers this winter. The Pirates were giving him away. Explain that move to me.

show me where you said that this winter, the pirates might have had him on waivers but the other 29 clubs were just as low on him at the time.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Nymr83 wrote: ]Christ, they could have picked up Wigggy on waivers this winter. The Pirates were giving him away. Explain that move to me. show me where you said that this winter, the pirates might have had him on waivers but the other 29 clubs were just as low on him at the time.

You're asking for crap from the past now? I'm not sure I pointed it out here. I may have felt that I'd made the point so many times before, no one was interested. But then again I tend to repeat myself so much, I might have posted it.

[nymr83]

]You're asking for crap from the past now?

no, but you're making it sound like the mets are idiots for not picking up over the winter, but obviously all 30 clubs didnt want him, so unless you actually said you did want him at the time its unfair to criticize the Mets on that point now.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Yeah, that's me. I'm unfairly picking on the poor widdle defenseless Metsies again.

I hated their guts for trading Wiggy, I ripped them up, down and sideways ever since the trade, I insisted Wiggy was a better player than Matsui from the day we got Matsui, and I'm still saying that today. The only time I changed my story was that day the Pirates put Wiggy on waivers, when for some reason I didn't object to the Mets letting Wiggy go unclaimed, and if I don't feel like doing a tedious search to prove my consistent hatred for the Mets' arrogance and blindness to satisfy you, I'm stuck with that version of reality. You've really trapped me there.

[smg58]

Wiggy's start has been as good this year as last year's was awful. He still finished last year with numbers (at least in terms of BA/OBP/SLG)consistent with his career averages, and I'd assume the same thing will happen this year. That being said, he'd still be an offensive upgrade at second base for the Mets, and he'd be an excellent tenth man on a deep team.

The Rays need Wiggy as long as Huff is hurt, and since a healthy Huff will get them something at the deadline I'd assume Ty stays in Tampa all year.

(PS The Pirates paid the price for bringing in too many young infielders and not giving any of them enough of a chance, and they gave up on Wigginton far too quickly, but nobody said they were any brighter than the Mets.)

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"]I'd rather have Benson.. Huh.You don't think this club need a powerhiitting 2b man more than they need a starting pitcher?

Of course I don't. Who on earth thinks this team needs more hitting instead of more pitching? Shirley not the guy who bet the team would be above average in RS and RA this year.

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"]They ain't trading Wiggy for Julio. They don't want Julio. Huh. Why not, do you suppose? Do you think somebody got rubed somewhere along the Wiggy-for-Benson-for-Julio road? Who, oh who, might that someone be, I wonder? All that remains, really, is to trade Julio for a bag of baseballs, and our work here will be done.

This has been covered all ready.

There was really nothing wrong with the Wiggy for Benson deal on our part. We don't need Wiggy's bat.

The part where we got "rubed" was Julio for Benson, because Julio reeks...and because we could use a guy for the rotation so we could drop Zambrano in the scrap heap. I've believed this since the day the trade happened.

Both of those points have been discussed in full.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

OK, smartass, if the Orioles cut Benson and the Mets sign him today, who would you drop from the rotation?

(hint: they ain't dropping Zambrano for anyone. They've already sidetracked several pitchers' careers to keep him in the rotation. The front office has "I WUV Zambrano" tattooed in hot pink on their genitals*. So who else would go?)

And you know I thought that yesterday, a hr hitting 2b man would have come in kinda handy.


*Watch that Willie.

[Elster88]

Who would I drop from the rotation? I'd drop Zambrano.

What about my post makes me a smartass? That I answered your questions in full and asked some questions that you refuse to answer?

Yeah, sure a HR hitting second baseman would come in handy. But a starter would be more handy than such a second baseman right now. So, once again, Wiggy for Benson was a good deal. Benson for Julio was not.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Elster88 wrote: Who would I drop from the rotation? I'd drop Zambrano. .

Like I said, that ain't happening. We've got a better starter in Heilman, and do you notice Zambrano going to the pen for Heilman any time soon?

No, I think if we had Wiggy, even the Mets would have given him a shot and turned your little bobo Matsui into extra-fine granules of sawdust by now.

Nah, what am I saying? Matsui makes more more money than Wiggy, so they'd have Wiggy as an all-purpose fill-in guy. Make that "Any sensible club would have given him a shot at 2b by now."

[Elster88]

I don't understand your point though. Wiggy's not even on the team. They traded him away, and got something more valuable in return. And they can't prove themselves to be an intelligent franchise by giving a shot to a guy that's not on the team anymore.

I'd love to see a Wiggy for Julio deal, mostly because Julio is no good.

But if you're hoping for that, then you're as foolish as I am in hoping they will drop Zamby.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

There's an etiology to deals. This problem began with trading Wiggy for Benson. It didn't work out, even if they'd kept Benson. If they'd realized that their own young player was adequate at 2B, they never would have signed Matsui, or shoved Reyes out of position, or created a never-ending 2B problem. But because they lacked the imagination that God gave a grapefruit, they had to jump the FA gun to get Benson. Stupid, stupid , stupid, all part of the Zambrano/Matsui mentality--let's win with this fabulous 2004 squad. 2004 was the perfect spot for a halfway intelligent baseball organization to re-tool--but they refused to to rebuiild, they arrogantly thought they were a contending club that needed a quick fix or two, and they've suffered for their arrogance.

Just not enough suffering, to my mind, is all.

[duan]

jesus christ; ty wigginton moved off 2nd base in 2000. Presumably there's a reasons for that. And sure he's got off to a hot start but it's ONLY at 63 AB that he's had here and there are a host of other guys who've raked in 63 at bats only to prove to be pretty useless over the season.

I'll bet you this, if he gets to 450 abs his obp will be below .330 and his OPS will be below .750.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

No, but I'll bet you that if either he or Matsui has the edge in ABs, SLG and OBP, it will be Wigginton who does that.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

duan wrote: jesus christ;

I don't really go by "Jesus Christ" anymore, duan. Some people were offended by that avatar, so you can just call me "sal", thanks. Or "bret". Or "you fucking liar." Or whatever you like. I'm used to it.

] ty wigginton moved off 2nd base in 2000. Presumably there's a reasons for that.

Yes, and I've already told you what those reasons are: The Mets couldn't recognize a second baseman if winning baseball games depended on having a good one. Which some analysts believe they do.

Today, the fucking guy is leading the AL in RBIs. He's on track to to hit 80 HRs and 200 RBIs, both of which would be new MLB records. If he has a shitty season from here on out, it will still be a pretty good season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6930
But since Julio had a good game yesterday, do we now have anyone who would not swap Julio for Wiggy? Aside from Duan?

And hey, KC, I know you're not responding anymore, but I'm curious which word best describes your feelings about expressing the belief here that Wiggy won't have a good season in 2006: Embarrassed? Amnesiac (remember, I've got archives to help you with your amnesia problems)? Defensive? Abusive? Foolish? Persecuted? Smug?

Or am I getting you all tangled in my evil webbery of words again?

[nymr83]

he won't have a good season, not he wont have a good April.
Get back to us when Aramis Ramirez isn't hitting under .200, The Yankees aren't a .500 team, and the leaves have had a chance to grow back on the trees.

[duan]

"And hey, KC, I know you're not responding anymore, but I'm curious which word best describes your feelings about expressing the belief here that Wiggy won't have a good season in 2006: "

seriously, since when did a decent start to the season make it a good season.

Why wouldn't you take up my bet about the 450 ab, 750 ops nature of his season if you're so convinced he's "having a good one"

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

because my point is that he's better (and cheaper) than Matsui, so we never needed to go down this whole sick route.

But if you won't take me up on my actual point, I'll take you up on yours. What shall we bet?

[duan]

A baseball book of your/mine choice via Amazon?

[can we cap it at a $25/$30 value - whatever makes sense]

and what I am betting is that wiggy will have an ops of less then .750 if he gets to 450 ab (or more)

[nymr83]

450 PA would be fairer to Bret imo, dont penalize the guy if he suddenly starts walking like a madman

[duan]

well 450 ab/475 pa

whichever is fine with me.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Capping it at $30 is fine, and it's your call if you want to go for 450 ABs or 450 PAs.

IOW, you're on.

[duan]

well why don't we say if he gets over EITHER 450 at bats or 475 plate appearances. That way if he discovers bondsesque plate discipline you don't get caught out by him falling short of the 450 ab,

[Guest KC]

BS: >>>And hey, KC, I know you're not responding anymore, but I'm curious which word best describes your feelings about expressing the belief here that Wiggy won't have a good season in 2006: Embarrassed? Amnesiac (remember, I've got archives to help you with your amnesia problems)? Defensive? Abusive? Foolish? Persecuted? Smug?<<<

I don't think Ty is anything special and neither do most baseball analysts.
2006 is young, I can still be right. If one of the posters here was tooting up
their horns about any Mets player after fifteen games they'd look kind of
foolish as does someone tootin' Ty's horn (even if it's just to make sport of me).

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

So "smug" it is. Thanks.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

duan wrote: well why don't we say if he gets over EITHER 450 at bats or 475 plate appearances.

Okay. 25 walks seems pretty easy to me. He's got 5 already.

[Guest KC]

smug adj - in agreement with most baseball analysts regarding a
players skill level

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I'd say that would be "insufferably smug." See also: wrong, stubborn, unwilling to eat dirt if Wiggy plays well in 2006, etc.

This is another "you-get-me-coming-AND-going" issue. Until 2006 is in the books, you're all "There's plenty of time left for him to suck, and most baseball analysts says that he will, hahahahaha" and after the season, this is more crap from the past, Bret bragging obnoxiousnessly about how impossibly right he was, etc.