What I loved about the Davey Johnson Mets

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

="seawolf17"]But Kase, you don't understand. Davey was a genius! Art Howe would have left Doc in Tidewater! Willie Randolph would have traded Sid Fernandez to Milwaukee for Gorman Thomas! Did you see the great Gil Hodges ever give young pitchers a chance? No! He let Tom Seaver rot in the minor leagues, until he finally dumped him on the Reds! He told management, "I don't want this Koosman kid. Get me an aging middle reliever instead!" Gimme a break.

Hodges, who was a good manager along the lilnes that I'm praising Davey for, inherited Seaver (the previous year's ROTY) when he took over the job in 1968. I don't think he should get credit for turning Seaver into a rotation starter, and I don't think you should post before turning on your brain.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Promoting Gooden in 1984 was not a no-brainer. Frank Cashen did not want Gooden to start the season in the big leagues, and throughout spring training there was a lot of speculation about whose will would prevail, Cashen's or Davey's. Cashen was remembering Tim Leary, and didn't want a repeat of that disaster.

Just because Davey did get his way, and Gooden thrived, doesn't mean that Doc was a shoo-in for the rotation. He wasn't.

Darling had already had some big-league experience; he had started several games in 1983, so he was already "groomed" and ready to go. But Gooden was very much on the bubble for a while there.

I can't get my hands on my copies of Bats or Rookie (they're on a shelf at my parents' house) so I don't know what, if anything, those books would say on the matter. My 1985 Sporting News Baseball Guide has nothing about any spring training decisions.

[Guest KC]

Then I retract "no-brainer" - it's a little strong. I think calling Johnson a genius
for playing him is unecessarily strong on the other side of the discussion.

[Elster88]

]Now if Seo and Heilman turn out to be as good, you can argue (and probably will) that they were good BECAUSE they were brought along slowly, being yoyoed back and forth helped keep the pressure off them, etc. and I can't prove that you're wrong, either. And if they each stink up the joint in 2006, you'll be able to say, "See? If the Mets would have started them as rotation anchors in 2005, the team would have been even worse than it was."

Leaving out the points for the moment, don't tell me what I will and won't say. Because not only are you completely wrong, but that's just being a dickhead.

Secondly, what in the world are you talking about? I can't be proved wrong? What is that? The only thing that I'm really arguing is that Heilman and Seo aren't as good as the other three. That can't be proved wrong or right?

The contentions that are unprovable are mostly yours, the ones that Heilman and Seo would've been treated better with Davey Johnson at the helm.

What you don't seem to realize is that they really have been given opportunities to play. I think Seo got shafted too, but everyone has an orgasm over his performance last year and conveniently forgets his shitty 2004. Heilman also underperformed until last year, where the majority of his success came in the bullpen.

When Sid, Doc, and Darling were given similar chances, they performed well, and thus they stayed in the rotation.


Edit: Again, let me express my love for Davey Johnson. But how did those Red teams he managed do? When he wasn't given a world of talent to manage, how did he do?

And I'm sure you realize his Met teams actually played below their talent level.

Edit 2: Toned down the hostility, to curtail my own dickheadedness.

[seawolf17]

I loved Davey Johnson too... I'm just saying I don't know if he was the perfect manager. You can't slam other people for making blanket generalizations and then go make them yourself.

As far as Kevin Mitchell goes, his numbers in AAA in '85 and with the Mets in '86 were pretty similar.

team	year	g	ab	h	r	hr	rbi	obp	slg
Tides	1985	93	348	101	44	9	43	.354	.448
Mets	1986	108	328	91	51	12	43	.344	.466

Now I don't know what other utility options were out there in the winter of 85-86, but I don't think it makes Davey Johnson a genius for giving Mitchell ABs. In fact, Mitchell's numbers in '86 were pretty similar to another utility man the Mets brought north in 2001:

name	year	g	ab	h	r	hr	rbi	obp	slg
Mitchell	1986	108	328	91	51	12	43	.344	.466
McEwing	2001	116	283	80	41	9	44	.342	.449

So was Bobby V a "genius" for giving Joe McEwing playing time? Again, I'm not saying I don't agree with your hypothesis, I'm just saying your proof has some shaky logical jumps.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I guess the point is that Johnson stood up to Cashen, which was admirable.

But that doesn't mean the Mets of today are necessarily evil. Tyler Yates is a recent example of a rookie starter who got a shot, but generally, I think if you're going to break in a guy, doing it the Hielman way is as good as any: Let him have some success in small bites and gradually work his way into a job.

Out-of-the-box rookie pitching sensations are very rare.

And not to turn this into a war, but so long as there's going to be criticism lobbed at the Mets for hanging onto veterans at the expense of youngsters, some of which is fair, one might expect it to be acknowledged when those veterans are exchanged for younger players.

Sanchez and Schmoll are both younger than Seo, for instance. Nady is younger than Cameron. Maine & Julio are both younger than Benson. If you include the fact these moves will allow a greater role for Heilman, that's 6 young guys given a job opportunity at the expense of 3 older guys, so maybe that end of the criticism oughta go on hold.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

You're comparing what actually happened with with what could happen, and pointing out (unnecessarily) that would could happen hasn't actually happened yet.

I liked Davey giving kids a shot. I liked more that his doing so worked out so well, but it took a lot of guts and baseball acumen to make those calls. Davey stood up to Cashen, which KC seemed to forget (or maybe the joy of jumping up and down on me was just too irresistible) but much more imprtant he spoke his mind whoever was resisting his arguments. He certainly knew what he was doing (which Willlie might or might not) but he stood up and spoke those views strongly, which Willie certainly does not do. I prefer Davey's way.

In mid-summer 1986, I was fearful that Foster might NOT be released, and I was pissed that the Mets were keeping this over-the-hill slugger they had paid big bux for. I wanted Foster swapped out ((I still think they hung onto him too long, to the point that he had little trade value, which was my chief complaint about Piazza, if you're scoring) but at least they had the guts to pull the trigger when he gave them a damned good reason to let him go. This team regards over-the-hill vets as absurdly valuable, and it hurts them, and will hurt them in the future. This current club seems to think that money spent needs to be justified, whether it's justifiable or not. The DJ Mets were all about winning, not about CYA.

But this is only what I liked about those Mets. Christ's sake, I open the floor to ask what other people like about those Mets, you read my post closely to figure out my "agenda" here, raise all sorts of objections to my thesis, and forget the purpose of this thread: to discuss what YOU love about the Davey Johnson Mets. Do you like arguing my thesis more than you loved the Davey Johnson Mets?

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: In mid-summer 1986, I was fearful that Foster might NOT be released, and I was pissed that the Mets were keeping this over-the-hill slugger they had paid big bux for. I wanted Foster swapped out ((I still think they hung onto him too long, to the point that he had little trade value, which was my chief complaint about Piazza, if you're scoring) but at least they had the guts to pull the trigger when he gave them a damned good reason to let him go. This team regards over-the-hill vets as absurdly valuable, and it hurts them, and will hurt them in the future. This current club seems to think that money spent needs to be justified, whether it's justifiable or not. The DJ Mets were all about winning, not about CYA.

I'm glad they got rid of him too, but I think more of it was due to his dickheadedness. If he was a nice guy, do you think they would've been as quick to drop him?

Bret Sabermetric wrote: But this is only what I liked about those Mets. Christ's sake, I open the floor to ask what other people like about those Mets, you read my post closely to figure out my "agenda" here, raise all sorts of objections to my thesis, and forget the purpose of this thread: to discuss what YOU love about the Davey Johnson Mets. Do you like arguing my thesis more than you loved the Davey Johnson Mets?

I'll admit that my first thought was, "He's only talking up the '86 Mets as a not-so-subtle way to bash the current Mets." I still think that was part of the reason you started this thread. If I'm totally off the mark then I apologize.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

In 1984, Darling's rookie year, he had a 5.14 ERA and a losing record at the end of April. Send'm down to the minors, for Chrissake, he's not ready for MLB.

http://www.leaptoad.com/mets/profile.php?PlayerCode=0345&tabno=9&vMonth=ALL&vYear=1984

Now to Seawolf's point about Mitchell's minor league stats, it's fine to point out that Mitchell had pretty good minor league stats, but to extrapolate from that the idea that minor league stats = no-brainer promotion is to suggest some pretty harsh things about the current management's treatment of players with some pretty good minor league stats. You sure you want to go there?

[Elster88]

I don't get it. Is there a current Met who got dumped to AAA because of one bad month?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

No, they did dump Seo to AAA because he had a good month, though.

He's not a current Met, of course, because AAA apparently wasn't far enough.

[Guest KC]

This is a good thread. Hey I did some work here looking up stuff and dusting
off 20 year old books - don't ruin the spirit of the argument with crap like:

(or maybe the joy of jumping up and down on me was just too irresistible)

The Abstract itself, the one you used to read regularly and get letters pub-
lished in, said that Davey's job shouldn't be that hard. I didn't make it up.

[Elster88]

Bret Sabermetric wrote: No, they did dump Seo to AAA because he had a good month, though. He's not a current Met, of course, because AAA apparently wasn't far enough.

I agree with you there. They took a dump on Seo.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

KC wrote: This is a good thread. Hey I did some work here looking up stuff and dusting off 20 year old books - don't ruin the spirit of the argument with crap like: (or maybe the joy of jumping up and down on me was just too irresistible)

Sorry. It was irresistible.

Say, you you know Doc should have been shitcanned as well. After 8 starts, the morning of May 25, 1984, he was 3-3 with an ERA of 4.07. Look, Davey went a little wild here, this kid isn't ready for MLB either. Let's just send the both of them, Gooden and Darling, back to AAA where they can pitch with that fat Hawaiian kid until we're good and ready for them. Sometime in 1990 looks about right, huh?

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I have him at 4.15

Quibbling aside, it's true that Doc had pitched poorly in three of his first eight starts. I think his five good starts, though, offered a more compelling reason for keeping him than his three bad ones argued for sending him down. (That May 6 start against Houston was a real killer. I don't remember that one, but I do remember his second start, on April 13 at Wrigley. After the game, Gooden announced that the Cubs would be his enemies for life.)

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

And here, by the way, is that Tim Leary game that haunted Frank Cashen.

Leary was 22 years old and left the game with an injury after two innings. He wouldn't pitch in the big leagues again for another two and a half years.

[Guest heep]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/Zvon58/ssp003ani.gif>Can anyone recall a team since 86 that had an assortment of characters like that team? Will there ever be another team with that old-school approach, work hard, play hard, balls out cockiness? I think the 86 Mets will go down in history as the last team with that old-school fabric.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Uh-oh. Here we go again. I think there's another hail storm coming.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Tim Leary. I had a Daily News paper route then and recall reading a quote from Tommy Lasorda talking about how great Leary looked in the spring, probably on the date of his first start. Then, delivering bad news the next day.

[Elster88]

HAIL

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I remember watching Tim Leary's two innings at my aunt's house. I was thrilled to see a sensational young pitcher on the Mets. Then I got called away from the TV because food was served. When I got back to the TV, it was the fourth inning and Pete Falcone was pitching. It took me a while to find out what had happened. Talk about short-lived excitement. Sheesh.

[Elster88]

I don't know what the Mets were thinking getting rid of him. They should have given him at least three years to develop instead of dumping him.
__________________
This post had the designation 72) Jeff Innis

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

WayBack Machine: March 29, 1981.

] THE HOPE OF SPRING: BASEBALL'S ROOKIES By JOSEPH DURSO ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. RALPH HOUK peered past the palm trees and across 40 years of his life in baseball, and remembered what it was like to be a rookie. ''It's the most exciting time of your career,'' said Houk, who came out of retirement this year to become manager of the Boston Red Sox. ''Just to play alongside the guys you read about, to go first class in airplanes, or, in those days, on the trains. Just to go home and say you're in the big leagues.'' In the 26 training camps in Arizona and Florida, about 1,000 ballplayers were competing for 650 jobs this weekend, and 300 or so were rookies. They have 10 days left to survive the final cuts. After that, maybe 50 rookies will head north in first-class plane seats; the others will spend the summer riding buses in the minor leagues. Some bright rookies, like Cal Ripken Jr. of the Baltimore Orioles, have already been sent down. Others, like Tim Leary of the New York Mets, rated by many scouts as the best of the bunch, wait on the threshold. And one unusual rookie, Marty Bystrom of the Philadelphia Phillies, got the call last September, pitched five straight victories, appeared in the playoff and World Series and is still undefeated. Some rookies made news this spring but did not necessarily make the team. Howard Bailey of the Detroit Tigers fired a knockdown pitch at Bill Robinson of the Pittsburgh Pirates, hit him in the mouth and started a brawl in an exhibition game. Wally Backman of the Mets, sulking lately over his prospects, caught a line drive in Orlando the other day and started a triple play. Challenging Long Odds On a team of high-priced professionals like the New York Yankees, only one rookie pitcher may make it, and then only if he is righthanded. On a team in the throes of rebuilding, like the Mets, three rookies may make it: Leary, Mookie Wilson and Hubie Brooks. For the Los Angeles Dodgers, a chubby 20-year-old left-hander from Mexico who speaks no English may make it big: Fernando Valenzuela, who pitched 18 innings in 10 games last September without surrendering a run. They are challenging the long odds that face all first-year players and the outrageous odds that face the two who will be voted rookies of the year next fall. The big winners last year were Steve Howe of the Dodgers in the National League and Joe Charboneau of the Cleveland Indians in the American League. But as spring training winds down, most rookies are waiting and wondering. ''That's the other side of the coin,'' Houk conceded, ''and that's not so exciting: the knock-on-the-door danger. Unless you've already been given the job, or unless you have a super ego, you always wait for the manager to call you in and tell you that you're going back down. I know, I broke in with the Yankees.'' Who was the best rookie Houk ever saw? ''Probably Mickey Mantle,'' he said. ''That was 30 years ago, and we took a barnstorming trip by train before the season opened. Mickey hadn't even made the club yet. But in San Francisco, in the old Seals Stadium, they had signs out beyond the outfield to mark the spot where guys had hit the ball out. Joe DiMaggio, guys like that. Mickey was just a teen-ager, but he hit balls past all the signs, both lefthanded and right-handed.'' Mantle later signed his first big league contract on the train and was paid $7,500. Today's rookie, if he sticks, will get at least five times that amount. Two years later, especially if he goes to arbitration, he could raise the ante by 50 times that amount. But since veteran players command million-dollar salaries, many baseball people believe that today's baseball economics have given rookies unusual chances to win jobs, even during the pennant races of September. Praise for Leary Who is the best looking rookie of 1981? Tommy Lasorda, manager of the Dodgers, pretended a bit of innocence and replied: ''I like that son of a gun on the Mets. What's his name, Leary? He can throw the hell out of the ball.'' Whitey Herzog, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals, skipped the innocence and said: ''Leary. You look at him pitch and know that someday he'll be a super baseball player. I don't know if they'll want him to try it this year or not, but he'll be here someday soon.'' Herzog paid a visit to his minor-league camp the other day and watched David Green, the highly regarded young outfielder who went to the Cardinals from the Milwaukee Brewers' farm system in the trade for Ted Simmons and Rollie Fingers. The manager noted that Green was still learning, but added: ''How far away is he? About three miles.'' To qualify as a rookie, a player must have no more than 130 times at bat or 50 innings if he is a pitcher. And he must have spent no more than 45 days on an active big league roster, although September callup time does not count. According to scouts, executives and players, these are the brightest candidates who meet that definition in the class of 1981: TIM LEARY Pitcher, New York Mets He is a quiet 6-foot-3-inch, 22-year-old right-hander from California who was the Mets' No. 1 selection in the amateur draft of June 1979. He is, says Manager Joe Torre, ''overpowering.'' He lost his first five games at U.C.L.A. and his first four in the Texas League last summer. But otherwise, the numbers are upbeat. He won 15 games and lost 8 at Jackson, Miss., pitched six shutouts and was voted the most valuable player in the league. The big argument is whether to keep him or season him. Leary will have company. Mookie Wilson, a 25-year-old sprinter from South Carolina, will probably open in left field, and Hubie Brooks, a 24-year-old Californian, will play third base or shortstop before long. TIM RAINES Outfielder, Montreal Expos At age 21, he arrives as another of the Expos' prodigies from the Denver Bears, where he led the American Association in hitting with a .354 average. He also stole a record 77 bases and scored 105 runs in 108 games. Second base is pre-empted by Rodney Scott, so the Expos are shifting Raines to the left-field spot vacated by Ron LeFlore, who signed as a free agent with the White Sox. The Denver club has also supplied Tim Wallach, 22, who hit 36 home runs and knocked in 124 runs. He played 90 games at third base, 40 in the outfield and six at first base. If Manager Dick Williams can find a position for him, Wallach will spend the summer in Olympic Stadium. FERNANDO VALENZUELA Pitcher, Los Angeles Dodgers He was only 19 last September when he came up from San Antonio and helped the Dodgers overtake the Houston Astros, a left-hander with long hair, a cheerful manner and two types of screwballs. After 10 appearances in relief, he still has not yielded an earned run. His manager, Lasorda, says: ''I have never seen a rookie with so much charm, charisma and stuff. He will captivate the public.'' If Valenzuela has a rival in National League bullpens, it may be Lee Smith of the Chicago Cubs, a 6-foot-6-inch, 235-pound righthander. Smith will try to fill the void created by the trade of Bruce Sutter. CAL RIPKEN Jr. Infielder, Baltimore Orioles He is a 6-foot-4-inch third baseman and shortstop from Maryland, the 20-year-old son of Cal Ripken, the Orioles' coach. He hit 25 home runs last year in the Southern League and got 144 hits in 144 games. So far, his highest minor league level has been double-A. But one believer in him is Doug DeCinces, the regular third baseman, who overcame a sore back this spring and became the Orioles' hottest hitter. A week ago, Manager Earl Weaver eased the contest by farming out Ripken, but his return is expected. MARTY BYSTROM Pitcher, Philadelphia Phillies Bystrom, a 22-year-old Floridian, began the 1979 season on the disabled list and spent most of it in Oklahoma City before the Phillies called him up Sept. 1. Then he started five games in a tight pennant race, won all five, was voted the National League's pitcher of the month and started games in the playoff and World Series, both of which the Phillies won. He was added to the postseason roster by league dispensation to replace the injured Nino Espinosa. The Phillies have another well regarded rookie, Luis Aguayo, a 22-year-old infielder from Puerto Rico. FRANK DiPINO Pitcher, Milwaukee Brewers If the Brewers need a stopper in the bullpen aside from Rollie Fingers, they may have found one in DiPino, a 24-year-old left-hander from Syracuse, who was signed in 1977 after attending a tryout camp in Newark. He won 7 games and lost none last year at Holyoke in the Eastern League, with a no-hitter and an earned-run average of 1.30. Then he was promoted to Vancouver in the Triple-A Pacific Coast League, where he won 3 and lost 1 with a 2.25 earned-run average. He strikes out nearly one batter an inning. George Bamberger, the former manager of the Brewers, says: ''We need a left-hander to give Rollie Fingers a rest, and he may be it.'' ANDY RINCON Pitcher, St. Louis Cardinals ''He's started four games in the big leagues,'' says Herzog, ''and he's won three of them.'' All that happened after Rincon made his debut last Sept. 15. He beat the Chicago Cubs, 5-1; the Montreal Expos, 4-1, and the Mets, 5-1. He is a 22-year-old Californian with hard stuff, and even his promotion was dramatic. He was driving home after helping Arkansas win the Texas League championship with two playoff victories, when he was intercepted by the Texas Highway Patrol. The message: Report to St. Louis. He will be joined on the Cardinals by Tito Landrum, a 26-year-old Missourian who got nine straight hits in his professional debut. Landrum has a good glove in the outfield. KIM ALLEN Outfielder, Seattle Mariners He is a 27-year-old of distinction: Allen majored in psychology and sociology at California, enjoys jazz and chess and steals bases. He spent six seasons in the farm systems of the California Angels, Pittsburgh Pirates and Mariners. Last season at Spokane, he set a Pacific Coast League record by stealing 84 bases and had a 35-game hitting streak. Promoted to the Mariners in September, he stole 10 times in 13 attempts. His manager is Maury Wills, who sprinted with the best of them. TONY PENA Catcher, Pittsburgh Pirates One point in his favor is that he was signed by Howie Haak, who has sent more than 70 players to the big leagues. Another is that the Pirates need catching. Pena, 23 years old, from the Dominican Republic, did not play baseball in high school. But after five years in the minors, he blossomed last season in Triple-A. He led the Portland Beavers of the Pacific Coast League by hitting .329 and knocking in 77 runs. He also hit 13 triples, which means unusual speed for a catcher. DAVE ENGLE Outfielder, Minnesota Twins He might have been only an asterisk in baseball history: part of the payment made by the Angels in the trade for Rod Carew. But now, this 24-year-old alumnus of Southern California may be making it on his own. A former third baseman, he switched to the outfield last season, his third as a pro, and made 16 assists. He also led the International League in hitting with .307, getting 150 hits in 133 games for Toledo. He is a 6-foot-3-inch, 210-pounder, and he could earn a job in right field.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Wow. Lasorda had Fernando Valenzuela in his camp, and he said that Tim Leary was the most promising rookie pitcher.

Oh, if only...

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Hail!

[Guest ABG]

Need help remembering?

http://www.newvideo.com/productdetail.html?productid=NV-AAE-74690

I wasn't sure if this had been posted yet, somewhere, but I just found it.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Jack Lang writing in the 1982 Sporting News Baseball Guide:

]...Cashen had inherited Torre when he became the general manager. He was pressured into signing him to a two-year contract when Torre brought the team home fifth in 1980. But Cashen and Torre had many philosophical differences and they never worked well together despite outward appearances. Problems developed in the spring when Torre and his coaching buddy Bob Gibson urged Cashen to elevate rookie Tim Leary to the varsity roster. Leary's spring performances were sensational but Cashen wanted the pitcher to have at least a half season in Triple-A. Torre and Gibson won, but also lost. On the third day of the season, Leary left a game in Chicago after only two innings. He complained of an elbow problem he had concealed earlier. Leary never threw another pitch all season. Torre counted on Leary as a regular starter because Craig Swan was slow recovering from a slight tear of the rotator cuff in his right shoulder...

[Theoldmole]

You don't call anyone a genius for one decision.

And one can argue that "genius" is an inappropriate term for a baseball manager. I would not argue that. I like hyperbole.

[Guest Iubitul]

This is a great thread

IIRC, Gooden made his first start in the climate-controlled conditions in the Astrodome. Perhaps that was a compromise between Davey and Frank Cashen.

As for a reason to love davey, his line at his introductory presss conference:

]I would like to thank Frank Cashen for having the good sense to hire me

A personal story: I used to do the baseball card show circuit to have guys sign a lot of the pictures that I shot. One is a picture of Shea that I took on a beautiful spring day - I had it blown up, and the idea was to have different Mets sign all around the sky over the stadium.

Davey was the first one to sign it. When he looked at it, he asked me if I really wanted him to "ruin" such a great shot. He signed it really big, and right in the center. When, I said, "Hey, just like John Hancock", he laughed.

[Guest Matt Murdock, Esq.]

]I remember watching Tim Leary's two innings at my aunt's house. I was thrilled to see a sensational young pitcher on the Mets. Then I got called away from the TV because food was served. When I got back to the TV, it was the fourth inning and Pete Falcone was pitching. It took me a while to find out what had happened. Talk about short-lived excitement. Sheesh.

i was in college at the time. I had borrowed a "transistor radio" (you youngsters can look it up), and was sitting alone in my dorm's kitchen/lounge area, ready to bear aural witness to the 2nd coming of seaver. I had bought the hype... hook, line and sinker. I remember the feeling, when Bob Murphy told me Leary's arm had fallen off... in the 2nd inning, i think, after striking out 2 or 3 already... i was literally sick to my stomach. I felt dizzy. I heard laughter in my head... it may have been my Yankee fan brother, or the last vestige of god still residing there.

The feeling comes over me now whenever i hear somebody scream "play the rookie!"

As for what i loved about Davey: he learned the game at the foot of the great one, Earl Weaver. Without benefit of computers, Weaver had devined the secret of winning... don't give away outs. They're precious.

He invented BIFL. His offense was 3 walks and a 3-run homer. He platooned players to use for the talent at hand... he didn't ask them to do what they couldn't, and found spots to use them to do what they could. thus giving careers to guys like John Lowenstein and Gary Roenicke. Don't let your pitchers walk anybody. Better to let the other team hit solo HRs. Speed is more important on defense than on offense.

you know, stuff like that.

Davey learned it all, and then jacked it up a notch. Weaver never would've given Mitchell and Johnson starts at SS. He played Belanger there, for krissakes!

Davey would trade defense for offense whenever he thought he could get away with it. If Doc or Fat Sid were pitching, Hojo or Mitchell could find themselves at SS, because there were likely to be alot of Ks. Neither Backman nor Teufel would ever make anybody forget Ryne Sandberg, but he kept their bats in the lineup.

And its revisionist history not to credit Davey with Gooden's presence on the opening day roster. I remember distinctly reading about Cashen's reluctance to take the kid north, but Davey put his foot down and Cashen gave in. It's only a "no brainer" from this distance.

And Davey did not give one good shit about what these kids did oiff the field. He wasn't interested in babysitting or good citizenship... he wanted to win.

Davey was smart, tough, funny and took the Mets from losers to winners. How can anybody not like Davey?