One Tough Dominican? One Coddled Ballplayer!

[Guest Egg_Salad_Sandwich]

Pedro Martinez sits out the last few starts of the season with a tired arm, or was it back ache, or maybe piles or whatever, and now he is going to pitch this winter for the Dominican Republic national team --- very interesting. The Mets pay Pedro a sh*tload of money to pitch for them whether they're in position for a playoff spot or not. More fans show up to Shea and tune into the games on days he pitches, ergo the Mets can recuperate some of that huge salary. This is not an isolated incident with Martinez, in 2001 when the Red Sox were out of the playoff hunt Pedro sat out the last few weeks with what I believe was a tired arm. No playoff = Pedro days off.

I think the Mets are foolish to allow Pedro Martinez to represent the Dominican Republic in the World Baseball Classic.

[Frayed Knot]

Pedro's problem at the end of this season was with the big toe on his right (push-off) foot. He has said he'd like to pitch in winter ball and the world expo if and when it's healed.
I have no problem with either, particularly as how the latter is while he'd be pitching in Spring Training anyway.

[soupcan]

If Met brass doesn't have a problem with it why should I?

I'm not the one signing those big checks.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

The key to keeping Pedro effective as a Met is keeping him happy.

If this will keep him happy, then it's good for the Mets.

[Guest Spacemans Bong]

Yes, it is totally worth having a guy who has already pitched 217 innings in the season throw a few more meaningless innings to make you happy.

STFU.

[nymr83]

i'm with the bong, this guy begs out of starts left and right, ok thats an exaggeration, this guy requires coddling and wants extra time off whenever he can get it. he was shutdown (a decision i agreed with entirely) when the mets were done. theer is no reason he should be pitching any baseball for anyone but the mets, especially after throwing the most innings he has thrown in 4(?) years.
keeping him happy? the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ should keep him happy, if i made that kind of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ i'd do whatever the fuck the team said to do and i'd like it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

No, I don't think you would.

[metsmarathon]

how much throwing do these guys do in the offseason, anyways?

i'm guessing they throw more than a few innings' worth... if his participation in fall/winter baseball would not lead him to a greatly different offseason workload, then i've no problem with it.

also, i've gotta say that at some pointyou need to trust your players, dotcha? if pedro really is begging out of games left and right, then don't you think that he'd also be begging out of these games too, forthe same reasons? i mean - he's a baby, right? he's not going to suddenly man up and play through, is he?

if he feels his arm is healthy and can take the work, he's a big boy, and i've gotta take his word for it.

in my own experience, also, my level of dissaticsfaction with management has never been inversely proportionate to my salary. in fact, i was less dissatisfied when working for taco bell and radio shack than i often find myself working for the man.

[nymr83]

you have a real job, he gets paid millions to play a friggin game, theres no comparison.
i DON'T trust him to know whats best for his arm, or at least not to tel us if it conflicts with what he wants, i trust the Mets (at least i hope i can trust the Mets) to do whatever will keep him in the best condition to pitch for the Mets and only for the Mets, i don't give a fuck about the dominican national team and if he cares so much he could have been like dave nillson and not signed a contract that would prevent him from playing for his national team.
also, its been show before that pitchers who pitch winter ball get tired/less effective/ more likely injured in the 2nd half of the following season.
he's getting paid the big $ to pitch for the mets and should not be allowed to do anything but a normal offseason workout schedule.

[Frayed Knot]

]also, its been show before that pitchers who pitch winter ball get tired/less effective/ more likely injured in the 2nd half of the following season.

It has??


And can we please stop pretending that this tourney will somehow be in addition to regular spring training work? It's not like it'll be going on at a time these participating players would be otherwise sitting under mango trees strumming guitars.
Assuming that there are proper pitch/inning limits in place to keep hyper managers from abusing players who aren't theirs (and there WILL BE such limits although I've not seen the specifics) the selected pitchers aren't going to be seeing increased workloads (can we give team mgmt types credit for a wee bit of brains?) merely doing their regular work in a different setting.

This whole tourney is going to last only a few games for some teams and a couple more for those who last longer - and those games are to be covered by an entire staff of pitchers and spread out over several weeks time.

[nymr83]

]It has??

yes. go look it up, i've seen the data before i believe it has been posted on this board at some point.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's your position. Why not present the data yourself?

[nymr83]

i'm lazy. its been posted here before, not my fault if people forgot it.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Failing to back up your position with research doesn't do much for your credibility.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yes, it is your fault.

[nymr83]

i could say the same, i havent seen anyone proving that pedro's pitching winterball won't hurt him.

[Guest rpackrat]

Yes. Come on everyone. Prove a negative!

[Guest Edgy DC]

That's not the way arguing works.

You make a claim. You back it up. Especially when you additionally claim there's evidence to back it up.

It's called burden of proof.

Personally I think it's a perfectly reasonable assumption. But until you stop bluffing and show what you claim exists does in fact exist, that's all it is.

[Guest KC]

The sky was green this morning.

Was not.

Was too, and I know other people must have seen it.

The sky can't be green. Prove it.

Was too, and my friend saw it.

Your friend and you must have been drunk on spiced rum.

Oh yeah? Prove that the sky wasn't green and then we'll talk, big man.

Uh, ok, I'll get right on that ....

[nymr83]

first of all thats a dumb analogy, which isn't suprising coming from you.

whether or not a pitcher will be less effective and/or more likely to get hurt the season after pitching winter ball isn't really a positive/negative scenario like your foolish analogy, its a question more like "what effect will x have on y" and theres no reason that my side should be burdened with proving it any more than the other side.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's a perfectly apt analogy. And it appears to be backed by several other people besides KC.

It is a postive/negative scenario, as you're saying that there is a negative effect. And it's been shown!

Listen, if you're going to run away from your own statements like this, why should anybody give an ounce of credit to any other statements you make?

[Guest KC]

>>>first of all thats a dumb analogy, which isn't suprising coming from you. <<<

And here I was just beginning to like you - and don't confuse analogy with
making sport of someone - and you need an apostrophe between t and s
and you spelud suprising wrung in a post that calls me dumb.

I used to shout at the wind on the baseball internet scene too many years
ago until I realized that people don't care what you have to say no matter
how loudly, boldly, articulately, smugly, cleverly, cutely, whateverly ... un-
less you can back it up with facts, figures, and/or qualified sources.

[nymr83]

are you telling me your post wasn't made with the intent to pick a fight with me? it sure seemed otherwise to me, if you didnt really mean it that way i'll apologize

[Guest KC]

No apology necessary.

There's a big difference between making sport of someone who posts dumb
things on an baseball board and picking a fight with them btw.

Forget me, and answer to some of the other posts in this thread.

[metsmarathon]

if pitching in winterball was bad, and tantamount to asking for injury, whysoever would teams allow their pitching prospects, who often make the majors with fairly tight pitch counts in their young years due to concerns of overstressing fragile arms, pitch in winterball?

why would they do such a thing?

[Elster88]

Elster88 has to agree with Nymr here (and Elster88 rarely agrees with Nymr). Elster88 doesn't see how pitching in competitive games is the same as "normal offseason workouts". Pedro is a competitive person, which Elster88 thinks is an understatement, so Pedro will probably bust his ass for whatever team he pitches for. Elster88 is terrified that Pedro will hurt himself or not get the rest he claimed to need because he will be pitching this offseason.

Elster88 is surprised that most other Met fans don't seem to be worried. At the core of it, we have a guy who is considered fragile. His endurance was questioned, as was his age, when he signed with the Mets. He pitched more innings this year than he has in a long time. He complained of being tired (in early September/late August?) and looking forward to resting during the offseason (maybe not strumming a guitar under a mango tree, but that image isn't far off from what Elster88 envisioned when Pedro said he was looking forward to resting). Elster88 thinks that competitive baseball is the last thing he should be doing.

What are the contract ramifications is he hurts himself? Aaron Boone had his voided because he hurt himself playing basketball. Jeff Kent got reamed by the press when he hurt himself one offseason.

Elster88 is tried of posting like Rickey. Only a few more to go.
_____________________________
This post had the designation 138) Rickey Henderson

[Frayed Knot]

Y'know, for all of Pedro's supposed "fragility", he's missed significant time in only 1 of the last 11 seasons (2001) averaging 216 IP/per in the other 10 (217 this year) and always making between 29 & 33 starts (31).
Pretty durable for a fragile guy.

And while these world cup games may be more intense, I'm not concerned that Pedro's season/future is going to change because he throws a partial game against Korea (or whoever) in March during the time he'd otherwise be doing the same thing in a tune-up contest against the Nationals.

]What are the contract ramifications is he hurts himself?

None. Those dopes were participating in activities specifically banned in their contracts - hoops and motorcycle racing. Pedro would be pitching in team/MLB approved winter ball and/or tourney ball.

[Elster88]

Frayed Knot wrote: Y'know, for all of Pedro's supposed "fragility", he's missed significant time in only 1 of the last 11 seasons (2001) averaging 216 IP/per in the other 10 (217 this year) and always making between 29 & 33 starts (31). Pretty durable for a fragile guy.

Good point.

[Guest Egg_Salad_Sandwich]

Ed, you know that facts only get in the way of the trurth. Nymr83 shouldn't have to back up his statements anymore than you. You started this whole thing by referring to Pedro as one tough dominican---now prove it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

http://www.penguinphysics.com/images/Cardinal%20Pics/Players/Joaquin%20Andujar.jpg

]Ed, you know that facts only get in the way of the trurth.

I wha?

The "One Tough Dominican" thread title was, of course, a playful reference to Joaquin Andujar. I don't actually think that Pedro is necessarily tougher than your standard Met.