Willie: Seo Not Guaranteed 2006 Rotation Spot

[nymr83]

]Actually, the two situations aren't even remotely the same. Have you actually looked at Seo's 2004 numbers?

i was not referring to THIS year. i was reffering to his good 2003 not earning him a spot in 2004 because of spring training '04. stupid decision.

] And if Seo gets lit up all of next spring, Heilman is pitching lights out, and the other four pitchers have the spots locked up, I'm sure you'll be clamoring for Heilman to get Seo's "rightly deserved spot." Which, oddly enough, is exactly what I'm advocating,

No, i'll be asking for Seo to get the spot he earned by being our best pitcher in the time he was here this year. But if if heilman is lights out i'll probably be be asking for him over Zambrano who stunk this year.





-editted "stupid" to "stupid decision" to make it clear i was bashing the mets decision making and not calling the poster i quoted stupid.

[Elster88]

He got 21 starts last year. I'd say he had ample chance to prove himself despite not getting the start out of spring training.

And considering the stats I posted, it seems like putting him in AAA to start 2004 was the right decision since, regardless of this year's performance, he apparently didn't have it last year.
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[Elster88]

]Guys who played the previous year uncharacteristically healthy.

Sadly, this probably includes Floyd. I'd advocate a trade. (Diaz in left, Cameron in right.)

Hopefully this doesn't include Reyes.
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This post had the designation 153) Matt Franco

[nymr83]

]And considering the stats I posted, it seems like putting him in AAA to start 2004 was the right decision since, regardless of this year's performance, he apparently didn't have it last year.

i said it before and i'll repeat myself...i was reffering to his '03 stats not earning him a spot in '04, not his '04 stats not earning him a place in '05.

[Elster88]

I realize. Now, I'll repeat MYself.

It's hard to argue that he DIDN'T belong in AAA in 2004, seeing as how he pitched to a 4.90 ERA over 21 starts, this year's performance nonwithstanding.

Whatever he has this year, he didn't have last year.
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This post had the designation 153) Matt Franco

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yes, and he's saying that the decision to not put him in the rotation in at the start of 2004 appears at least partly vindicated by his performance when he did get into the rotation very shortly after. (Elster beat me on the trigger here.)

I don't argue for a trade of Floyd, but merely not entering the season (or the off-season) with expectations penciled in of a repeat performance from Floyd.

[Elster88]

Edgy DC wrote: I don't argue for a trade of Floyd, but merely not entering the season (or the off-season) with expectations penciled in of a repeat performance from Floyd.

Me too. I actually expect a good deal less from him, considering that a large portion of his stats came from a disproportiantely smaller part of the season.
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This post had the designation 152) Anthony Young

[Guest Rotblatt]

Sure, Elster, but by that criteria, Zambrano should have started this season in the minors. He had a crappy season last year--very similar peripherals to Seo (1.59 WHIP, 1.14 K/BB, etc.) although his ERA was better at 4.43 (which, given his peripherals, I would argue is a result of luck), and he was terrible this Spring (7.41 ERA, 2.24 WHIP, 0.94 K/BB).

Given that Seo's season in 2003 (111 ERA+, 1.27 WHIP, 2.39 K/BB) was better than anything Zambrano had ever done as a starter, even if you combine the best aspects of his career (108 ERA+ in 2003, 1.44 WHIP in 2002, 1.26 K/BB in 2003), you'd think Seo would have gotten the edge in a world where performance was king.

Zambrano had one additional year of experience as a starter than Seo, during which he posted a 5.53 ERA & a 1.65 WHIP, so if anything, that year should be a negative in the debate.

Nonetheless, we entrusted Zambrano with a spot in the rotation--not to mention Ishii, for the love of jeebus--instead of Seo.

At the time, I didn't question it--I mean, we all knew Zambrano was getting a shot regardless of what he did--but that doesn't make it right, or a smart move.

It just means that I was as blind as Willie & co.

Ishii, by the way, is another case of a guy who sucked and had bad peripherals. His best year was 2003, where he posted a 104 ERA+, a 1.56 WHIP & a 1.39 K/9. Again, Seo's best year was better and his worst year (2004) no worse than Ishii's (a tie between 2002--89 ERA+--and 2004--88 ERA+).

Without even considering Seo's performance this season, Sal was right--we should have given the nod to Seo as soon as Trachs went down.

[Elster88]

I see everything you are saying, Rotblatt. But basically, all you are saying is that Seo, Zambrano, and Ishii were all about equally bad based on statistics going into 2005. And, Seo was basically a two-pitch pitcher in ST. I'm also assuming the experts (Peterson and the coaching staff, and Minaya in making the Ishii deal) saw something they didn't like. So the choice to start him in spring training was not all that bad based on the evidence everyone had, regardless that it looks foolish now with 20/20 hindsight And I imagine most people, if arguing against Ishii or Zambrano being a starter out of ST, would have chosen Heilman over Seo.

In any event, as I've said before, leaving Ishii in the rotation as long as they did is what to yell at management for, not starting him in the rotation out of the gate.

Again, we are far afield from my original point which was simply this: There is no need to pencil Seo's name into the 2006 rotation just yet.
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This post had the designation 152) Anthony Young

[nymr83]

]I'm assuming the experts (Peterson and the coaching staff, and Minaya in making the Ishii deal) saw something they didn't like

they saw who they traded kazmir for and who they traded phillips for and gave those 2 guys spots.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I should add that behind Ishii's ERA+ those two years were typically awful peripherals.

[Elster88]

] ]Quote: I'm assuming the experts (Peterson and the coaching staff, and Minaya in making the Ishii deal) saw something they didn't like . they saw who they traded kazmir for and who they traded phillips for and gave those 2 guys spots.

Well here we go again. Since they traded Kazmir and traded a backup catcher for a starter (when our backup catcher has obviously performed adequately in his absence) then every time they make a decision it should automatically be assumed incorrect, regardless of the actual evidence at hand.

How did Peterson's pitching staff do again this year? DID OMAR OR WILLIE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE KAZMIR DEAL?


Goddammit I'm banging my head against the wall here.

[Elster88]

Rotblatt wrote: I should add that behind Ishii's ERA+ those two years were typically awful peripherals.

Rotblatt I agree with everything you said. I'm just pointing out that starting Seo in the rotation was not nearly as clear cut in ST as it is now.
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This post had the designation 152) Anthony Young

[Guest Rotblatt]

Elster88 wrote: But basically, all you are saying is that Seo, Zambrano, and Ishii were all about equally bad based on statistics going into 2005.

Well, yeah, but I would have given a definite edge to Seo for having had the best season out of the three of them.

]And, Seo was basically a two-pitch pitcher in ST. I'm also assuming the experts (Peterson and the coaching staff, and Minaya in making the Ishii deal) saw something they didn't like.

Okay, but sometime in between Norfolk starting (the second week of April, IIRC?) and his first MLB start on April 23, Seo figured it out (6 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 4 K). He was brilliant in his next two starts, then demoted in favor of Ishii & Zambrano, DESPITE all that I laid out before, which is clearly a bad call, even without the benefit of hindsight..

]In any event, as I've said before, leaving Ishii in the rotation as long as they did is what to yell at management for, not starting him in the rotation out of the gate.

No, what I'm yelling at management for was the decision to trade for Ishii in the first place when we had Seo, who--even with his crappy 2004 & poor ST--was pretty clearly just as good (or bad, if you like).

]Again, we are far afield from my original point which was simply this: There is no need to pencil Seo's name into the 2006 rotation just yet.

I agree with that, so long as no one's name (except Petey's) is penciled in either.

[nymr83]

]How did Peterson's pitching staff do again this year? DID OMAR OR WILLIE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE KAZMIR DEAL?

i assume you mean the starters, overall they did good...they'd have done great if they had either a) never traded for ishii, who was not necessary or cut bait with him when he once again proved he sucked.

omar and willie work for WILPON and WILPON made the kazmir deal. fred's son has all the power around here.

[Elster88]

Nymr83 wrote: omar and willie work for WILPON and WILPON made the kazmir deal. fred's son has all the power around here.

Ah, the voice of reason. Blame it on the owner's son, because we know for sure the Wilpons made that move, not the GM, etc.

[Elster88]

Rotblatt wrote: ]And, Seo was basically a two-pitch pitcher in ST. I'm also assuming the experts (Peterson and the coaching staff, and Minaya in making the Ishii deal) saw something they didn't like. Okay, but sometime in between Norfolk starting (the second week of April, IIRC?) and his first MLB start on April 23, Seo figured it out (6 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 4 K). He was brilliant in his next two starts, then demoted in favor of Ishii & Zambrano, DESPITE all that I laid out before, which is clearly a bad call, even without the benefit of hindsight..

I'll agree with that. This is what I was saying, yell at them for keeping Ishii and Zambrano in the rotation in favor of Seo for too long. Though IIRC he had one great start and one mediocre start in that first short stint.

Rotblatt wrote: ]In any event, as I've said before, leaving Ishii in the rotation as long as they did is what to yell at management for, not starting him in the rotation out of the gate. No, what I'm yelling at management for was the decision to trade for Ishii in the first place when we had Seo, who--even with his crappy 2004 & poor ST--was pretty clearly just as good (or bad, if you like).

Well, if you knew that, you knew more than me. I thought Ishii could be good. He has shown flashes of brilliance before, I always thought his career started going downhill after he took that line drive off the noggin in his first year with LA.

Rotblatt wrote: ]Again, we are far afield from my original point which was simply this: There is no need to pencil Seo's name into the 2006 rotation just yet. I agree with that, so long as no one's name (except Petey's) is penciled in either.

Me too.

[nymr83]

saying "nobody's spot is safe" and "seo's spot isn't safe" are two completely different things. if willie the fool had said "nobody's spot is safe we wouldn't have a 3 page thread right now, but hed idn't. he said "my 2nd best pitcher's spot isn't safe"

[Guest Edgy DC]

No, he didn't.

[Zvon]

Willie said, and Ill quote:
"I dont even know if he'll be here next year."

Great response (sarcastic smiley here<)


I do think with the Mets surplus of starting arms there will be some interesting movement over the winter, but theyd be wise to give Seo a full chance, unless they can get something major for him or they know something that I dont.

[Guest KC]

>>>-no sig quote for now, someone say something i can put down here for awhile!<<<

How 'bout, "Fred's son has all the power around here"?

[Guest Edgy DC]

They used to say the same thing about Sanford and Son. Turns out that it wasn't true.

[Guest Edgy DC]

This article suggests that Willie is in Seo's corner. It also does a good job outlining the reasons behind Seo's successes and failures.

[Elster88]

]Seo, who played high school baseball with the Rockies' Byung-Hyun Kim and the Dodgers' Hee Seop Choi, can win big games. He once pitched the South Korean national team to victory with enormous stakes. How big? Lose and the entire squad had to fulfill its military service obligation.

WOW
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This post had the designation 149) Willie Mays

[Elster88]

Looks like the title of this thread can be junked. Go Willie Go!
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This post had the designation 149) Willie Mays

[Elster88]

]Ruhle once screamed at Seo after the first inning of a game in Montreal, imploring him to challenge hitters. He had become too cutesy... ] Imagine if he had coached Ronnie Darling? _____________________________ This post had the designation 149) Willie Mays Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 05:13 AM Well, we apparently will have Seo, Trachsel, Zambrano & Heilman competing for two spots in the rotation next year: ]Before the game, manager Willie Randolph said that Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine and Benson were the team's only three starting pitchers basically assured of being in the rotation next year. -NY Post, 9/21/05 Willie loves his veterans. Needless go say, I think this is a Bad Idea. sharpie Sep 21 2005 07:15 AM Not necessarily. Who knows if Trachsel or Zambrano will even be here. There is also the possibility of Heilman staying in the pen. Elster88 Sep 21 2005 07:24 AM WATP that intrigued me: Floyd, Zambrano/Traxxxx and Milledge for Manny. Takes into account that Floyd will probably miss significant time next year due to injury. We don't need to spend a lot of $$$$ on pitching next year, our rotation looks to be in good shape. What we need is a thumper. Resign Mikey or someone to a small catching contract and insert Jacobs at first base. This way we get to take a look at Jacobs and we still get our middle of the order thumper. Manny + rejuvenated Beltran + Wright. Since it's not my money let's sign Konerko, too and stick Jacobs in AAA. Reyes Beltran Wright Ramirez Konerko I know, I know, too early to be talking stupid offseason stuff like a WFAN caller on crack. _____________________________ This post had the designation 149) Willie Mays Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 07:37 AM sharpie wrote: Not necessarily. Who knows if Trachsel or Zambrano will even be here. There is also the possibility of Heilman staying in the pen. Sure, and I hope Trachs & Zambrano get traded for some kick-ass prospects so that there's no chance of Willie fucking the rotation up (again) but the point is that Willie's system isn't, IMO, smart. Seo has had a better season than Benson, even given how few starts he's had, and on a per-start basis, Seo kicks Glavine up and down the block--for that matter, on a per-start basis, Seo beats out even Pedro. But Seo doesn't even warrant a "basic assurance" that he'll be in the starting rotation next year. That's bullshit. It's also unsurprising, given Willie's previous comments and his baffling attachment to "proven" veterans like Cairo, Ishii, DeJean, Graves, etc. You'd think he'd have learned his lesson by now, but as I note in the Graves thread, Willie doesn't seem to have learned much. Elster88 Sep 21 2005 07:37 AM Geez, you're still on this kick? ]for that matter, on a per-start basis, Seo beats out even Pedro Which is why you should take the per-start basis with a grain of salt and recognize (as you did) that it's a small sample size. ]Seo kicks Glavine up and down the block--for that matter, on a per-start basis, I bet over the last two combined years the numbers are a lot closer. There are plenty of things to bash Willie over. His 2006 rotation is not one of them. At least, not yet. _____________________________ This post had the designation 149) Willie Mays Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 07:42 AM Elster88 wrote: WATP that intrigued me: Floyd, Zambrano/Traxxxx and Milledge for Manny. I hate that idea. We'd be giving up WAAAAY too much for Manny, IMO. His contract is so damn expensive--and the Sox pitching in such poor shape--that Floyd & Zambrano/Trax alone should be good enough to net Manny AND some money to offset the salary difference. Hell, I'd probably insist that we get Shoppach as well. Milledge should be untouchable unless we get blown away by an offer for a YOUNG, relatively inexpensive star. Adam Dunn, I'm looking at you. Elster88 Sep 21 2005 07:45 AM It definitely is a TITTS trade. I don't see where Milledge is going to play. We have this guy playing center for another six years (gulp). Besides, if you can get a guy who knocks in 140 a year, you should be willing to give up the jewels in your system. I know Manny's getting older, but it'd be nice to have a slugger on the team. _____________________________ This post had the designation 148) George Stone smg58 Sep 21 2005 08:00 AM Elster88 wrote: It definitely is a TITTS trade. I don't see where Milledge is going to play. We have this guy playing center for another six years (gulp). This is a big reason why the Manny for Beltran talk got started in the first place. Edgy DC Sep 21 2005 08:02 AM ]That's bullshit. It's also unsurprising, given Willie's previous comments and his baffling attachment to "proven" veterans like Cairo, Ishii, DeJean, Graves, etc. Isn't this highly distorted? Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 08:14 AM ="Elster88"]Geez, you're still on this kick? ]for that matter, on a per-start basis, Seo beats out even Pedro Which is why you should take the per-start basis with a grain of salt and recognize (as you did) that it's a small sample size. Small sample size or not, Seo is ranked 64th among all pitchers (starting or otherwise) in Value Over Replacement Player (which is a net statistic). That's more valuable than Tom Gordon, Billy Wagner, Mike Mussina & Kris Benson. Let me reiterate that: Seo has been more valuable to our team than Kris Benson despite starting less than half the games Benson has. ]Seo kicks Glavine up and down the block--for that matter, on a per-start basis, ]I bet over the last two combined years the numbers are a lot closer. Past Three Years Glavine has averaged 1.03 VORP/S (0.69 in 2003, 1.27 in 2004, 1.14 in 2005) Seo has averaged .96 VORP/S (0.81 in 2003, 0.40 in 2004, 2.42 in 2005) The 3-year average is pretty close, but Glavine HAS been better over that span. It's worth noting, though, that Seo's bested him in VORP/Start in two out of the last three year. Still, given that Seo's only 28, BUT that Glavine has been dominant this second half, I'd probably call my expectations for 2006 a push. Okay, well I wouldn't--I think Seo will be better if given the chance--but I could see how a reasonable person could. Let's look at Benson now: Benson has averaged 0.58 VORP/S over the past three years (-.03 in 2003, 0.72 in 2004, 0.82 in 2005) So why, exactly, is Benson getting the nod over Seo? ]There are plenty of things to bash Willie over. His 2006 rotation is not one of them. At least, not yet. Sure, but he's given us every reason to worry about the choices that he'll make next year. Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 08:25 AM Edgy DC wrote: ]That's bullshit. It's also unsurprising, given Willie's previous comments and his baffling attachment to "proven" veterans like Cairo, Ishii, DeJean, Graves, etc. Isn't this highly distorted? I think it's pretty clear that Cairo, Ishii & DeJean received a whole hell of a lot more rope than they should have, based on their performance. ESPECIALLY given the presense of superior options. Even ignoring Matsui & our minor league system, Woody is a former 2B and put up much better numbers than Cairo. Ditto with Anderson. So why did Cairo keep starting? I think we all agree that Seo should have been pitching instead of Ishii much sooner, even if we disagree on the timeline. I seem to be the only one who still cares about DeJean, but IIRC, Willie's stubborness in giving him high-leverage relief appearances even after he proved himself ineffective cost us a few games. Graves was only used in blowouts, but he should not be on a major league roster given just how bad he's been this year, both in the majors & in AAA. So how is what I said a distortion? Frayed Knot Sep 21 2005 08:40 AM DeJean pitched all of 25 innings this year - fewer than he pitched last year when he was very good - and was gone by June. Graves has thrown even fewer. I don't see either one of these as examples of slavish devotion to vets. sharpie Sep 21 2005 09:06 AM ]Woody is a former 2B and put up much better numbers than Cairo He played 6 games there in 2002, that makes him a former 2B? Cairo had a decent year for the Yankees last season, and Willie saw him play all of those games, plus he got off to a good start this season. Yes he should have cut bait earlier than he did but giving him some rope was justified. What Frayed Knot said regarding DeJean and Graves -- they had very little impact on this season. (on edit): Look at Woodward's pre-2005 numbers. Lifetime .300 obp, coming off a miserable year. How are his numbers "much better" than Cairo's prior to '05? Edgy DC Sep 21 2005 09:16 AM Ishii is understood, but his continuance, which has ceased, can well beter represent an organizational overcommitment than Willie's. Arguing for Woodward or Anderson over Cairo, without getting into their graces and flaws (as Sharpie does above), is not arguing for demonstrating that Randolph had a "baffling attachment to 'proven' veterans," but, rather, that he didn't pick the proven veterans you wanted. DeJean has long been released and is a demonstration (though clearly not a definitive one) of the organization's willingness to cut a veteran and move on. Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 09:23 AM Frayed, DeJean's 25 innings pretty much all came in higher-leverage situations and he compiled a 6.31 ERA & a 2.10 WHIP in those innings. Willie--or Omar--finally got it right by releasing him, but as you'll recall, DeJean & Robo were the setup guys at the beginning of the season, and Willie stuck with DeJean in that role far too long. Not to mention Aybar, who also got around 25 innings. As for Graves, as I said, he shouldn't even be in the majors at this point. Besides, you're missing the forest for the trees. Cairo had 290 AB (tied for 7th most on the team) while posting a .605 OPS. Woody had 166 (43% fewer) while posting a .744. Ishii started 16 games for us while posting a 5.04 ERA & a 1.49 WHIP. Seo has only started 11. After being our second-best reliever most of the season, Heilman is JUST NOW starting to split time in higher-leverage situations with Takatsu. Maybe it's unfair to characterize Willie's misuse of players as pandering to veterans (since he has given Padilla & Jacobs shots), but it's been pretty clear that Willie HAS been misusing players. And pretty badly, too. Edgy DC Sep 21 2005 09:33 AM Well, that's certainly a fairer point. I would've tried some of Woodie at second, I imagine. Try and remember that DeJean got his high-leverage situations not by the length of his teeth, but by excelling last year for the Mets. He lost them, and his job, by failing this year. Frayed Knot Sep 21 2005 09:41 AM And DeJean pitched well last year as a set-up guy, does that not buy him some slack when he got off to a rotten start ... or do prior stats only count with guys where we can see after the fact were able to turn things around? That's the problem with a lot of this analysis is it's looking at things after they happened and saying that it was obvious all along. DeJean pitched poorly and was dropped before mid-season. Graves was signed on a hope he could find past success (as was Robo - only Graves is much younger) and was pulled from anything other than mop-up almost immediately. Mathews was dropped, as was Aybar (who had a real good spring IIRC). sharpie Sep 21 2005 09:50 AM I do remember much gnashing of teeth about Roberto making the roster. Just think what we'd be reading now if he tanked. Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 09:50 AM Cairo's career numbers are even worse than Woody's--.692 compared to .698--and given that Woody was much more successful THIS SEASON, why not try him out? Although you're right. Woody started off as a SS, not a 2B--my bad there. Still, he'd played 2B before and when Cairo was sucking in July & August, I'd have seen what he could do. Actually, I'd have seen what Lambin or Hernandez could do, but since I said I'd ignore our minor league system, I'll stick with Woody. ]What Frayed Knot said regarding DeJean and Graves -- they had very little impact on this season. I'll try this one more time. High-leverage situations. Close games instead of blow-outs. DeJean (1.00 LEV) pitched in them. Heilman (0.77 LEV), by and large, did not. DeJean's 25 innings came in significantly more important situations than Heilman's 58. My guess is decisions like this contributed to our shitty record in one-run games. In the future I'll avoid assigning motives, but my larger point is that Willie (or "the organization," if you'd like, Edgy), has made some stupid fucking moves throughout the course of the season that have pretty clearly cost us games. metirish Sep 21 2005 10:00 AM As regards Cairo it's all very simple, he was one of Willie's guys, how many times did we hear that over the season, I highly doubt numbers even came into it until recently. sharpie Sep 21 2005 10:03 AM .692 to .698 is hardly significant. In '04 Cairo's OPS was .763 vs. Woodward's .630. I've been in Woody's corner all year and I've never been a fan of Cairo's. That being said, Cairo, having actually played the position more than 6 times, and having started out the year halfway decently, merited the first shot at the job after Matsui went down/south. It wasn't really until late July that it was evident that he couldn't really handle it. Woodward was given 3 starts this year at 2b. Maybe Willie, a former 2b himself, doesn't like the way he plays the position - I dunno. Yes, I would've given Woody some more starts there but I don't think he's the answer. What I really don't get is ever playing Cairo at 1b. There's no excuse for that. Rotblatt Sep 21 2005 10:04 AM Frayed Knot wrote: And DeJean pitched well last year as a set-up guy, does that not buy him some slack when he got off to a rotten start ... or do prior stats only count with guys where we can see after the fact were able to turn things around? Sure, he pitched well in 21 innings for us last year--after getting lit up in 40 innings with Baltimore (6.13 ERA, 1.94 WHIP). For the season, he was at 4.57 ERA, 1.69 WHIP, which is actually an improvement on his career numbers. And he absolutely sucked in spring training, amassing a 9.95 ERA and a 1.74 WHIP. So I would say that, yes, prior stats DO count. Or should, anyway. ]That's the problem with a lot of this analysis is it's looking at things after they happened and saying that it was obvious all along. DeJean pitched poorly and was dropped before mid-season. Graves was signed on a hope he could find past success (as was Robo - only Graves is much younger) and was pulled from anything other than mop-up almost immediately. Mathews was dropped, as was Aybar (who had a real good spring IIRC). Actually, I said DeJean & Ishii should be gone well before it happened. I think DeJean was my choice to DFA in favor of sending Bell down out of Spring Training, as a matter of fact, and after his first 3 starts in the bigs, I wanted Seo to stay. I wanted to give Aybar a shot, based on his strong Spring, and we did, but he pretty quickly shot himself in the foot there. Listen, no one going to be right all the time, but when it's clear you're wrong, you have to do something about it, and quickly. Willie/the organization has acted extraordinarily slowly to make corrections and it hurt our chances. Elster88 Sep 21 2005 10:09 AM In general, I think management has to more slowly than fans would like. This is how you find the Berts in the middle of the DeJean's and Graves'. I think they were moved down as quickly as possible, no matter what the high-impact innings statistic says. Ishii is where you have a much stronger argument. _____________________________ This post had the designation 148) George Stone Edgy DC Sep 21 2005 10:26 AM If management moved as fast as fans would like, there'd be no more bullets or bodybags left. DeJean's leverage rating is partly due to him going from a feature role to a realease, rather than getting downgraded to a lesser role beforehand. I don't know why he's even at issue anymore. He blew a game by walking in a run, and got cut within a day or two. I don't know how much more decisiive a team could be expected to be. At the time of his release, Heilman was still being held in reserve as an extra starter, a role which typically gets only mopup appearances to keep one's arm fresh. As the season progressed, it became clear he was more needed as a more featured reliever than as a sixth starter. Now, you might say (1) he should have been the fifth starter, not the sixth, and (2) he should have been even more featured as a reilever sooner. I'd tend to agree. But neither of those points has anything to do with Mike DeJean. duan Sep 21 2005 11:34 AM I for one said "no way to Roberto Hernandez" I was way wrong. Rockin' Doc Sep 21 2005 06:31 PM You weren't alone, Duan. Much of the membership of the CPF was opposed to Roberto's presence on the opening day roster. Many of us, myself included, were wrong about Roberto and many other personnel decisions. TheOldMole Sep 21 2005 06:50 PM In the picture of Seo on the Mets homepage right now, his facial expression looks like Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Well, we apparently will have Seo, Trachsel, Zambrano & Heilman competing for two spots in the rotation next year:

]Before the game, manager Willie Randolph said that Pedro Martinez, Tom Glavine and Benson were the team's only three starting pitchers basically assured of being in the rotation next year.

-NY Post, 9/21/05

Willie loves his veterans.

Needless go say, I think this is a Bad Idea.

[Guest sharpie]

Not necessarily. Who knows if Trachsel or Zambrano will even be here. There is also the possibility of Heilman staying in the pen.

[Elster88]

WATP that intrigued me: Floyd, Zambrano/Traxxxx and Milledge for Manny.

Takes into account that Floyd will probably miss significant time next year due to injury.

We don't need to spend a lot of $$$$ on pitching next year, our rotation looks to be in good shape. What we need is a thumper. Resign Mikey or someone to a small catching contract and insert Jacobs at first base. This way we get to take a look at Jacobs and we still get our middle of the order thumper.

Manny + rejuvenated Beltran + Wright.

Since it's not my money let's sign Konerko, too and stick Jacobs in AAA.

Reyes
Beltran
Wright
Ramirez
Konerko

I know, I know, too early to be talking stupid offseason stuff like a WFAN caller on crack.

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This post had the designation 149) Willie Mays

[Guest Rotblatt]

sharpie wrote: Not necessarily. Who knows if Trachsel or Zambrano will even be here. There is also the possibility of Heilman staying in the pen.

Sure, and I hope Trachs & Zambrano get traded for some kick-ass prospects so that there's no chance of Willie fucking the rotation up (again) but the point is that Willie's system isn't, IMO, smart. Seo has had a better season than Benson, even given how few starts he's had, and on a per-start basis, Seo kicks Glavine up and down the block--for that matter, on a per-start basis, Seo beats out even Pedro.

But Seo doesn't even warrant a "basic assurance" that he'll be in the starting rotation next year.

That's bullshit. It's also unsurprising, given Willie's previous comments and his baffling attachment to "proven" veterans like Cairo, Ishii, DeJean, Graves, etc.

You'd think he'd have learned his lesson by now, but as I note in the Graves thread, Willie doesn't seem to have learned much.