Writing a column, need input!

[Guest Mark Healey]

The back page version of Going Nine in Gotham Baseball Issue 2 is going to be a column on "Where have all the larger-than-life characters of NY Baseball gone?

Guys like Durocher, Stengel, Billy Martin, Reggie, Darryl, etc...

Now, if you pose an interesting point, I'd like to quote you in the article, so e-mail me your real name and such...

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Well, it's interesting that Wee Willie Small Balls says that he models his managing style on Bad Billy Big Balls yet barely says boo to the umpires, plays nicey-nice in the clubhouse (in Bouton's terms, "He wouldn't say shit if he had a mouthful"), and speaks MOR corporatespeak to the media at all times. In the baseball stuff, he keeps players in silly-sick rigid roles, whereas Billy was a wheeler-dealer, hunch manager. There is no resemblence whatsoever that I can see, yet fans' memories are so hazy that no one calls bullshit on WWSB when he says things like this that are 180 degrees from reality. Fans are amnesiac, lobotomized zombies who wouldn't know they're being lied to if it came with a bite on their asses.

If you want to quote me, I will e-mail you my real name and address in Adams-Morgan in Washington D.C.

[metirish]

Bobby Valentine should be on this list, wouldn't that be a great dinner table, Bobby V,Billy Martin,Leo Durocher, Reggie Jackson and lets throw in Lenny Dykstra and Gary Carter, now that would be fun.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

More Input

[Guest Spacemans Bong]

="Mark Healey"]The back page version of Going Nine in Gotham Baseball Issue 2 is going to be a column on "Where have all the larger-than-life characters of NY Baseball gone? Guys like Durocher, Stengel, Billy Martin, Reggie, Darryl, etc... Now, if you pose an interesting point, I'd like to quote you in the article, so e-mail me your real name and such...

[Valadius]

Good point.

[Guest Mark Healey]

Well, Pedro will be one of my "Wha' Happened?"

Hasn't been anywhere near as nasty as advertised..in fact, he's been cuddly and cute.

No bean ball wars, nada. Especially after last night's debacle, he didn't even dust anyone!

Has NY become a place where nasty players get soft?

[Guest Mark Healey]

metirish wrote: Bobby Valentine should be on this list, wouldn't that be a great dinner table, Bobby V,Billy Martin,Leo Durocher, Reggie Jackson and lets throw in Lenny Dykstra and Gary Carter, now that would be fun.

He will be

[Elster88]

Mark Healey wrote: Well, Pedro will be one of my "Wha' Happened?" Hasn't been anywhere near as nasty as advertised..in fact, he's been cuddly and cute. No bean ball wars, nada. Especially after last night's debacle, he didn't even dust anyone! Has NY become a place where nasty players get soft?

So the only way someone can be a larger than life character is if they throw beanballs and start fights?

This post was made under the posting designation 167) Braden Looper

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, I'm wondering why "larger than life" tends to mean "jerk."

Romanticizing Billy Martin is a long road.

[Elster88]

It's the Jeff Pearlman syndrome.

This post was made under the posting designation 167) Braden Looper

[Guest Edgy DC]

I appreciate all the new material in Jeff Pearlman's book. But the introduction and the setting of the story and his self-centered perspective were maddening.

His view of what makes a guy interesting were also desperately inconsistent. It's a different thread, I guess.

[Guest Mark Healey]

Part of Pedro's makeup and what makes him great is his willingness to dominate the inside part of the plate. He's not doing that here. I'm wondering why that is.

Have the Wilpons asked him not to throw inside? Is Pedro's having to bat changing that approach?

I don't know the answer.

Pedro is the closest thing NY has to a larger than life character, but not in the way we're used to.

Durocher. Martin, Ruth, Reggie, Valentine, Tug, Dykstra = fun

Torre, Willie, Jeter, Beltran, Piazza = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I would like a profanity-laced tirade from the manager once in a while, throwing dirt on the umpire, etc.

[metirish]

]Have the Wilpons asked him not to throw inside? Is Pedro's having to bat changing that approach?

Now you know that's not true, why would they do that?, Pedro doesn't throw 98 anymore so maybe that's why he doesn't pitch inside like he used too,he's more of a control pitcher these days.I don't think the change to the NL has made him rethink things, I really doubt Pedro is afraid to hit guys, when he needed to hit Luis Gonzalez he did.

some classic Bobby..

[Willets Point]

Mark Healey wrote: Durocher. Martin, Ruth, Reggie, Valentine, Tug, Dykstra = fun Torre, Willie, Jeter, Beltran, Piazza = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I would like a profanity-laced tirade from the manager once in a while, throwing dirt on the umpire, etc.

On the other hand players/managers that make asses of themselves all the time can get tiresome. Sometimes it's fun enough to watch talent players play the game of baseball.

[Elster88]

Willets Point wrote: ="Mark Healey"] Durocher. Martin, Ruth, Reggie, Valentine, Tug, Dykstra = fun Torre, Willie, Jeter, Beltran, Piazza = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I would like a profanity-laced tirade from the manager once in a while, throwing dirt on the umpire, etc. On the other hand players/managers that make asses of themselves all the time can get tiresome. Sometimes it's fun enough to watch talent players play the game of baseball.

I guess some people get bored watching the game and need to watch a player make an ass of himself.

I mean for who would think that Pedro has lost some of his aura because he doesn't throw beanballs or come inside? (Especially a week after he threw hit Gonzo, as metirish pointed out.) Have you watched the guy pitch this year? Can you appreciate his performance without using him as a reason to lament the lack of players who fight with umpires?

Edited for needless rudeness.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

That tough enough for ya?

[metirish]

Some classic Gay-Rod, now this fella is a character.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Have the Wilpons asked him not to throw inside?

That's a really out-there stretch of speculation, don't you think?

[Guest Rotblatt]

If anything, they probably WANT him to throw at people. Bad boys get a lot of press, and that puts butts in the seats.

[Guest Mark Healey]

Why must every communication with you guys be adversarial?

A simple no thank you, we don't like you, would have been simpler.

Oh, and Dickshot?

NYFS did screw up the Alou headline, I never said in the story or in the subsequent communication that it was "official" of that he was signed.

So get your facts straight

Yes, I did say "done deal" in the thread because as far as the Mets were concerned, it was done. Moises told his agent "Get it done", and Omar himself told all his people "We got him".

---

I only came here because Greg spoke up for you guys, and I was willing to let bygones be bygones...hence the asking for help with the article.

I guess I shouldn't have bothered.

[Willets Point]

Dude, who's being adverserial? We're just offering input as you asked. If you don't like the input because it doesn't jibe with your thesis, don't use that material.

[G-Fafif]

Today's great New York ballplayers are thoroughly demystifed by exposure. Jeter, A-Rod and Piazza are/were covered relentlessly so there's nothing left to wonder about. Piazza at least gives honest (as far as we can tell) quotes but they're about politics and heavy metal. It's just not the same as in those halcyon days. Those other guys are programmed by their PR people to not say too much and in general none of them wants to be bothered. And what ballplayer spends his evenings at a Toots Shor's type establishment and is lionized for it? Who has his own chronicler the way DiMaggio had Jimmy Cannon?

Let's face it, ballplayers are businessmen and for the most part they act like it. When one of them doesn't (David Wells, for example), they're not hailed as colorful, they're derided as sociopaths.

I would agree that Pedro has been the closest thing there is to a larger-than-life character since coming to the Mets, but he doesn't have that overwhelming presence that casts a mythic shadow across the landscape as he did in Boston, at least as it appeared from a distance.

The most colorful thing about Randy Johnson is his nickname. Carlos Beltran just wants to be one of the guys. Sheffield is surly, not interesting. Wright may become a pop star but it won't be for any reason other than his playing and his youth. Giambi sold his soul. Latin players may be at a disadvantage because of cultural differences (though it may be different in the Latin community), but New York's best hope for a character may be Victor Diaz. He pretty much says whatever's on his mind. But Victor Diaz would need some staying power.

He may be in winter, and not terribly popular in certain precincts, but Steinbrenner's press releases are a character unto themselves.

[patchyfogg]

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, I'm wondering why "larger than life" tends to mean "jerk." Romanticizing Billy Martin is a long road.

How about a catcher that pleaded No Contest to a Sexual Assault charge? Oh wait, he's still on the team.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]I would agree that Pedro has been the closest thing there is to a larger-than-life character since coming to the Mets, but he doesn't have that overwhelming presence that casts a mythic shadow across the landscape as he did in Boston, at least as it appeared from a distance.

I'm sure he can fill in the void by driving his car off a steep ridge on a Christmas night killing himself and almost taking someone with him.

I'm only partly kidding. I think we're all just over-glorifying the past a little bit. The Yankees of today have a publicist as a go-between 'twixt the players and the fans. DiMaggio had a personal chronicler. Not much different to my thinking.

Billly Martin was fine manager. I don't miss his personality and I imagine if he was your manager today you wouldn't be getting down on your knees thanking God for it.

[Frayed Knot]

Except that no one is calling Castro "colorful" or "a character" because of his actions.
Martin was and, at least partly, it was for his numerous fist-fights (as a player & a manger, in bars and in dugouts), his drinking, and his general ass-holishness.
One response as to 'does NY have any characters like Martin anymore?' would be; No ... and Good!

[Guest Edgy DC]

I miss King Kelly.

[Elster88]

Willets Point wrote: Dude, who's being adverserial? We're just offering input as you asked. If you don't like the input because it doesn't jibe with your thesis, don't use that material.

My post could be seen as adversarial. I'm slightly embarrassed, though I stand by my remarks.

[Frayed Knot]

]The back page version of Going Nine in Gotham Baseball Issue 2 is going to be a column on "Where have all the larger-than-life characters of NY Baseball gone? Guys like Durocher, Stengel, Billy Martin, Reggie, Darryl, etc...

As a general answer to your original question, I'm not so sure this era is all that unique or diminished.
By comparing whatever's going on today with everyone from Durocher & Stengel through Darryl & Bobby V., what you're essentially saying is that there were more great characters over half-a-century in NYC than there are at this very moment. Looked at that way it's not surprising that this moment in time - or any moment for that matter - won't measure up to the examples you'll find over such a long span.
Fans who try to make the argument that there used to be more great players or hard throwers, or whatever way back when have the benefit of the same bias. Remember also that NYC used to have nearly 20% of ML players (3 teams of 16) rather than the under 7% (2 of 30) they have now.

[G-Fafif]

]DiMaggio had a personal chronicler. Not much different to my thinking.

Interesting point. DiMaggio, however, was from an age when the press was cooperative and complicit in building legends. After Dick Young, the tone changed. The players need PR people because the modern media is, at least in theory, more confrontational. It's more heat than light in my opinion, and there are surely columnists and broadcasters who are capable of kissing up to certain players but it's just a different world.

Maybe there is no more "larger than life" because thanks to instantaneous communications, everything is delivered lifesized.