There's a game on, IGT 8/19 Gnats @ Mets

[Guest MiniKnight]

Some very good pitching by Jae Seo takes us into the 9th inning, where Looper ends up getting the save.

That one run in the 7th inning was good enough!

[Valadius]

I want Jae Seo on this team for a LONG time.

[Elster88]

="Edgy DC"] Bring on Indigo Montoya, who gets Wright on the flyout.

I think it was Inigo.

[Zvon]

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, day three's always the best time for that. Floyd is struck out by Frankenloogy Joey Eischen.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Bam.

[metirish]

Seo turns Irish night into Korean night,the "Seo Heads" were out in force tonight, great bloody game.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I'll tell ya what -- Seo looked like a dadgum pennant race shutdown guy tonight. He was loaded with emotion and the 7th and 8th innings ended with him triumphantly shaking his fist and shouting. It was exhilerating.

[Guest KC]

Big yup �

[Guest Edgy DC]

Hang onto your butts.

Seo since his recall:

G	W	L	ERA	SV	IP	H	ER	BB	SO
3	3	0	0.39	0	23.1	13	1	4	15

[Zvon]

Edgy DC wrote: Hang onto your butts. Seo since his recall: G W L ERA SV IP H ER BB SO 3 3 0 0.39 0 23.1 13 1 4 15

wow

0.39!

[Valadius]

He's pitching like an absolute ace. Wow.

[metirish]

WOW is right,those numbers are crazy, huge kudos to Billy Connors for working his magic.

[nymr83]

]I demand an explanation for Jae Seo pitching in Norfolk all year while the Mets were sending Ishii to the mound every five days.

i've been saying that all year!

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

"I demand an explanation for Jae Seo pitching in Norfolk all year while the Mets were sending Ishii to the mound every five days."

I'm not saying it's right, but I believe Ishii got the nod based on seniority and his contract size. When Trachsel went to the DL due to his back, I think the Mets lacked faith in Seo, which prompted the trade for Ishii at the start of the season.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think most here preferred going with Seo or Heilman.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Edgy -"I think most here preferred going with Seo or Heilman"

I would agree that was the general feeling of the CPF. Unfortunately, this is one time in which I believe our intended course would have worked out better than the actions taken by Omar and the Mets brass. Not that losing Phillips has hurt the team much in light of Castro's able play, but for the most part, Ishii has been a disaster.

[Frayed Knot]

]I believe Ishii got the nod based on seniority and his contract size. When Trachsel went to the DL due to his back, I think the Mets lacked faith in Seo, which prompted the trade for Ishii at the start of the season.

Remember also that Benson was down as the season started.
And, yes, the fact that they traded for Ishii in the first place showed the lack of faith in Seo and/or Heliman although, coming off last year, it's not like either one had earned themselves a whole lot of slack.

The argument that the team then stayed too long with Ishii while Heilman was cleaning up in the pen and JWS toiling in the minors is probably true - although it does tend to scan over the parts where Ishii did provide (early) a few more good starts than he seems to get credit for; that the supposed weak pen would have been a whole lot weaker w/o Heilman there to bolster it; and that Seo has emerged from his exile with a wider variety of pitches then just the two he was (by some accounts) stubbornly clinging to for the last few seasons.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I think the ideal scenario from the Mets POV was to have Ishii in there as a get-by guy just long enough till Trax returned, a minor leaguer made too compelling a case, and/or emergency depth in the event that Benson's injury was more severe than planned, someone else got hurt, or Zambrano didn't turn around his bad start. He got as many starts as he did because they hoped he coulda garnered enough value to trade when those situations righted (or wronged) themselves.

Not for nothing but he went 7, gave up 1 ER and whiffed 9 at Norfolk in hois first start there.

Lets trade 1 excess pitcher for Ray Durham already.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Seo reeled off I believe 12 quality starts in a row for Norfolk with some sick numbers. He sucked at first and then had his "my wife is pregnant" start, which kind of masked how good he was to someone just glancing at his stats, but anyone who's suprised by Seo coming up and pitching well wasn't paying attention.

Not that anyone would have predicted he'd be as amazing as he has been, but seriously, it didn't take a genius to suggest that Seo should be given a shot.

And because it's nice to be right every now and then, here's what I wrote on July 6:

]Seo's AAA line overall [includes 3 or 4 incredibly crappy starts at beginning of the year before being called up and subsequently demoted] 2.84 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 8.70 K/9, 3.65 K/BB, .55 HR/9 The Korean 28-year old has now thrown 12 straight quality starts for Norfolk since being demoted. Did I mention that he should be starting over Ishii?

Anyway, I hope this makes Willie more willing to use what he's got in AAA. Valent and Bell should probably be called up ASAP.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Sure, you're right. And considering how tough the Mets situation has been at first base, I can't say we mightn't have found use for Jason Phillips also.

But:

(1) It's not like most here weren't saying the same thing.

(2) The "demand an explanation" stuff is just silly. The explanation is obvious, even if it's been shown to have been misguided.

(3) Let's try real hard to be the forum largely populated by people who disagree with each other and the organizaition without lightly accusing the forum or the organization of (a) being peopled by idiots who are making a choice no other organization would've, or (b) acting in bad faith.

Humility --- it's the new thing.

[Zvon]

heres some pics from this game.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

And if it happens to be your belief, supported by abundant evidence, that either a) or b) (or both) are true, then by all means let's be the forum that makes you feel unwelcome here. By all means, let's be the one forum that will not tolerate harsh criticism of a club that plays piss-poor baseball for four years running, and that rewards good pitching with extended stints in the bullpen or in AAA while protecting its errors in judgment with start after start after start. And please--let us not consider it appropriate behavior to dare chastise policies that reinforce such rampant do-doism, not suggest that such policies must change before we should back off our criticism.

Let's play nice here. Let's be Met-friendly, whatever the performance on the field, for however long it endures.

Let's be different from all those nasty creeps who propose we do something awful like, you know, win once in a while. Please--some humility, tempered by docile and mindless acceptance of the status quo. "No systematic criticism, please--we're Mets fans."

[Guest KC]

Welcome back, Bret. I trust the shock treatments went well? Jeez, what
did they feed you in there ... you look like you've lost some weight?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Truly? No, my sister-in-law fed me very well the last few weeks. I've put on a pound or two, I'm sure. Caught one Rockies game, which bored me stiff, mostly fished and hiked in the mountains, thanks for asking.

I really hadn't planned on posting so quickly here, but this is really the rankest hypocrisy, Edgy innocently asking before I left Who on earth could ever think any CPFer would attempt to discredit my views--Heavens to Betsy, everyone's perspective is welcome around here, Kumbaya and all that-- and then to be welcomed by his accurately stating my position with the addendum that of course WE don't want to allow such an outre position stated here on the CPF. WE're so much better than that.

I really don't mind someone disagreeing with me, but to do so with an air of superiority kinda gets my hackles up, and to further insist that you're terribly open-minded about privileging all opinions just pisses me off.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Not to get in the middle of anything, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't directed at you, Sal, but at whomever made the initial "I demand an explanation" post. And I totally agree with the main point in that demand, by the way--not so much in the literal sense of "what explanation did we have for keeping him down" but in the "why did we let PR trump good baseball" sense.

I DO kind of think that not many organizations would've made the same choices we had. Not necessarily in trading for Ishii--not a bad trade, in my book--but in leaving Seo--a guy who pitched quite well in the bigs not that long ago--down in Norfolk for so long despite embarassing the fuck out of his AAA opponents, which is exactly what he was doing for all but around 4 of his 20 or so AAA starts.

And it's not just the numbers--I've seen a couple of his starts since he came back up and the guy is just filthy right now. He's got nice, late movement on his new splitter and cutter, and he's locating his change and fastball really well. He is, in a word, dominant, and he has been since he pitched for us when Ishii went down and we should have seen that sooner.

Either our scouts weren't telling management how good Seo really was, which means they're ineffective, or they were and management wasn't listening, which means management didn't care enough about winning. Either way, it's embarassing that we left him down there for so long, if you ask me, ESPECIALLY when we're in the middle of a wild card race where every run counts.

The decision to leave him down was mitigated somewhat by finally bringing him up and continuing to give him starts, but our organization really WOULD have to be completely retarded to have sent him down--or even denied him a single start--after how well he's pitched for us.

I really don't think there's any way to put a positive BASEBALL--e.g., help our team win--spin on the decision to leave Seo down while Ishii pitched in the bigs. Or Zambrano, who has been inconsistent as well, and was, IMO, pitching over his head for much of the season.

IMO, it's a black eye for the organization which will only be washed away by making it to the post-season this year or by completely collapsing in the next month.

Anything less calls into serious question the decision to leave Ishii here and Seo in the minors. I mean, Seo's three starts in April and May for us where he went 2-1 with a 2.00 ERA, a 0.72 WHIP, a 7.00 K/9 with a 4.67 K/BB ratio were far better than ANY THREE STARTS OF ISHII'S 16 THIS SEASON AT ALL--never MIND that Seo's were back-to-back-to-back.

Seo went 7 innings on May 4, giving up just one hit and two walks, striking out eight before being sent down to the minors. That start is the best single start in 2005 by any Met starter not named Pedro Martinez or Aaron Heilman. And yet we left him in AAA for two months, during which time he was consistently and ridiculously good.

It's an embarassment and reflects poorly on our organization. I just don't see any other way of viewing it.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I'm quite sure Edgy's smarter than to direct his comment at me deliberately, Rot. I was just taken by the juxtaposition of his holier-than-thou taunt (I'll find it for you, if you like) to the effect of innocently asking "Who on the CPF is denying Sal the right to express his opinion?"' and his post in this thread more or less expressly stating CPF policy to be just that--i.e., let's be the only Met forum not to allow posting of a negative kind.

The real question is why do the Mets have such foolish policies? If they would have done various moves that I (and other CPFers) have strongly advocated from the git-go (trading veterans and playing kids mostly), some of which they've been forced into doing anyway (Diaz, Seo, "benching" Mienkiewicz), they wouldn't be much worse than they are now, plus they would have all the prospects that their superannuated starters would have brought--but they insisted that they're in the middle of tight pennant race, thus bringing maybe 5.000 extra fans to the ballpark under the false pretense that this is actually a decent team. But why? Is it just for the bucks?

I think it's more. I think this team allows its executives to cover their butts more than most teams tolerate. The dumb fucks decide that Matsui is a terrific shortstop? Solution: play him for a year at short, whatever he shows on the field Some stupid asshole decrees that Piazza's still got it? Solution: Bat him ahead of Wright for two or three months when everyone outside of Piazza's dad can see that isn't justified by their current skills. Some clueless jerk compounds that error by swapping Jason Phillips for Ishii? Have Ishii pitch in the rotation long after he's proven he can't do it. Some moron decides that to justify the Ishii deal, Seo will have to go to the minors to learn how to pitch? Solution: keep Seo in AAA for several months, even after he pitches well in the majors AND then in the minors while Ishii is stinking up the joint at Shea. I could go on and on (and have) with Heilman, with Benson, and several other bete noires, but the bottom line is this, whether Edgy likes me saying it or no: the Mets' organization is run by incompetants, who compound their mistakes by insisting they haven't made a mistake yet, and then perpetuate the obvious goofs in judgment rather than fess up and fix them. I disapprove of this policy.

[Guest KC]

>>The real question is why do the Mets have such foolish policies? If they would have done various moves that I (and other CPFers) have strongly advocated from the git-go (trading veterans and playing kids mostly), some of which they've been forced into doing anyway (Diaz, Seo, "benching" Mienkiewicz), they wouldn't be much worse than they are now, plus they would have all the prospects that their superannuated starters would have brought--but they insisted that they're in the middle of tight pennant race, thus bringing maybe 5.000 extra fans to the ballpark under the false pretense that this is actually a decent team. But why? Is it just for the bucks?

I think it's more. I think this team allows its executives to cover their butts more than most teams tolerate. The dumb fucks decide that Matsui is a terrific shortstop? Solution: play him for a year at short, whatever he shows on the field Some stupid asshole decrees that Piazza's still got it? Solution: Bat him ahead of Wright for two or three months when everyone outside of Piazza's dad can see that isn't justified by their current skills. Some clueless jerk compounds that error by swapping Jason Phillips for Ishii? Have Ishii pitch in the rotation long after he's proven he can't do it. Some moron decides that to justify the Ishii deal, Seo will have to go to the minors to learn how to pitch? Solution: keep Seo in AAA for several months, even after he pitches well in the majors AND then in the minors while Ishii is stinking up the joint at Shea. I could go on and on (and have) with Heilman, with Benson, and several other bete noires, but the bottom line is this, whether Edgy likes me saying it or no: the Mets' organization is run by incompetants, who compound their mistakes by insisting they haven't made a mistake yet, and then perpetuate the obvious goofs in judgment rather than fess up and fix them. I disapprove of this policy.<<<

Now unless someone edits, deletes, modifies, moves, or otherwise tampers
with this "opinion of the Mets" than I guess you can post your "opinion
of the Mets". All the other stuff is boiled cabbage that no one cares about.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Edgy DC wrote: (3) Let's try real hard to be the forum largely populated by people who disagree with each other and the organizaition without lightly accusing the forum or the organization of (a) being peopled by idiots who are making a choice no other organization would've, or (b) acting in bad faith. .

Well, I care that the head honcho here explicitly calls for a Pollyanna-ish tone on this forum, just a few weeks after he claims (as you just did) that I'm free to state my aberrent opinions as I please.

A truly open-minded admin would just note that CPFers hold a wide variety of views. That's what I used to say when I was a big, all-puffed-up admin around here, anyway.

[Guest KC]

Being denied the ability to post an opinion and whether or not you care for
a post by someone is two totally different issues.

The only interest I have in this whole thing is when someone claims they're
being censored or denied posting priveleges and it's simply not the case. I
take such accusations personally.

You obviously can post an opinion, and when someone claims otherwise it will be
pointed out.

[Zvon]

Let me reiterate an earlier point I made.

When that spot opened Willie said get me a lefty starter. He got one. He wanted that to work out. He went too long with it.
They stuck with Ishii so long because he was a left arm.
I really believe it was as simple as that.
Some managers are of the mindset that a certain formula with a pitching rotation works better than others.

This does not excuse the fact that the Mets could have much better helped themselves by having their own finger on their own pulse.

I may be a serious Met fan but Im not afraid to hear or speak the truth as I see it, or hear it from anothers perspective.
Opinions are just what they are, a persons view.
Adversity is a great thing when it comes to fantalk.

Theres always someone who is going to concentrate on and represent the negative side of things. I welcome such rants.