Ceetar

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Sorry I got messed up with the quotng. I'm saying the reason the fo is upset by Omar isn't the personal motivations or ambitions of the individuals, primarily, but that a parallel chain of command could pervert their collective work. We know Sandy is all about the process. If the process gets upset then it's not going to work. This happens with the Wilpons all the time. Guys working at cross purposes, blurry chain of command, etc etc Is it really a parallel chain of command though? Like, is everyone else collectively working together and presenting a decision to Sandy that ultimately decides and Omar's opinion will sit on his desk next to that and he'll have two things to look at? or more likely, this is just another input. Sure, that may muddy the waters a bit, but ultimately it's still all on Sandy and I just don't buy that he's not okay with Omar there. So if Omar presents one suggestion and the rest of the front office generally is in support of another, and Sandy decides Omar's suggestion is the best option, that's going to be spun, via disgrunted quotes to reporters, as some sort of circumventing the process thing, when it's really just someone complaining that maybe they have a small percentage less personal power.

41Forever wrote: I mean, I'd like the owners of Chick Fil-A to sell too as they're garbage people running the business in a way contrary to what i feel I "deserve" as a customer. Aside from labeling people as "garbage" because you have philosophical and political differences, one could point out that you have, in fact, many options when it comes purchasing to fried chicken sandwiches. If you don't like the store that closes on Sundays or whatever, there are many other franchises that might treat you the way you think you deserve to be treated. And if enough people feel the same, the place you disagree with will either change its ways or lose customers and close shop. A baseball team is a little different. While still very much a business, it is also a bit of a local trust and in all but a handful of places, a monopoly. If it were just about winning and treating you as you think you deserve to be treated, you'd already be wearing a RE2PECT t-shirt. meh on local trust, and meh on monopoly. It's a business. it's entertainment. So are the movies, the NFL, going to the park, playing softball, playing competitive checkers. It's really no different. we deserve nothing. Don't like how the Mets choose to entertain you? well, there's always burger king. or Shake Shack's chicken sandwich, or cook it yourself. Your favorite baseball team actively funding things with the explicit unAmerican purpose of discrimination? Eat/watch elsewhere. We can complain and raise whatever causes we want about how things should happen, but it's not going to change anything.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games. If he cared about the fans, he'd sell one of his office buildings and the Madoff debt might be done with. But he couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans. He wants to eat his fucking cake, too. Instead, he'll ride out the financial crisis even if it means keeping the Mets in mediocrity for as long as it takes for the debt to be paid back with Mets baseball revenue, knowing full well he's covered because the value of the franchise is rising to astronomical proportions. If the Marlins are worth a billion, what the hell is the NYC NL franchise worth? Literally every owner. If the Yankees were losing money, the Steinbrenners would cut payroll. No owner would liquidate one asset to try to make the another one more popular. I mean, I'd like the owners of Chick Fil-A to sell too as they're garbage people running the business in a way contrary to what i feel I "deserve" as a customer.

Edgy MD wrote: I guess it depends on who you want to put through waivers to make room for him, but he looks like a player to me. well he's 5' 11" and his fastball tops out at 89 and he (or at least for his changeup?) throws sidearm. So in a way, he DOESN'T look like a player. There may be some moneyball/chad bradfordness to this, or he legitimately might not have what it takes to get major league guys out.

99.9% of all signings are motivated by money. Neil Walker isn't sitting on multiple offers waiting to see which other free agents sign or which teams pitch him the best future. He's waiting for the best offer than contacting other teams to try to get them to top it. It's why the Yankees (And often the Mets too) are linked to many free agents. It's why Carlos Beltran and Scott Boras floated a "Wants to be a Yankee" quote, to try to get the Yankees to offer something so they could then come back to the Mets again and get them to try to top that. Boras was sitting in a puddle of drool imagining both NY teams getting into a bidding war. And no one would believe the Wilpons anyway. (Though everyone's quick to believe veiled allusions by Alderson that they'll spend _less_) no second basemen have signed. Reliever fodder is a dime a dozen and you can literally always find a reliever at any time of year. The Mets also need some sort of 1B/OF depth signing, but they're stuck in that place of wanting a guy but not wanting to really guarantee him any playing time because they're really hoping Smith and Conforto play at least 140 games. I guess you could take a talented guy and way overpay him and then not use him. There's your "spend freely" argument, particularly if it's just a one-year deal on some guy. But that's still sorta a niche role that players probably hold on to offers and hope someone sees them as something fulltime.

also #juicedball but we've litigated this already. I'd be willing to bet that the number of players that 'blossom' under other teams via arb cuts is not something the Mets are way out ahead in. I don't have the time or easy access to look this up though.

Wilpons like the stereotypical ideal of a New Yorker, and ascribe that person Mets fandom. But they're rich folk who prefer other rich folk and I'm sure wish poorer people well but don't think have a hand in why they're struggling. It's part of the reason I don't want to hear from them, because there would be a lot of rich white male republican drivel in there. But they LOVE owning the team. that's been established and quoted by people on the record many many many times and to infer the opposite with no sourcing is just dumb.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Getting Cuddyer to go away with a year left on his contract was an underrated win. The correct answer is the Pagan trade. Pagan trade was real bad because there were three players involved and we lost the best one. That list is very retroactive. I mean, I'd have kept Turner but it wasn't like it was obvious. The Mets also didn't know (I assume) that the ball was juiced and was going to be further/remain juiced. And like, Michael Cuddyer was a good hitter. He was a good add. _I_ was very happy with that and not alone. In retrospect, with his ditching on his contract, it seems possible he didn't have the drive to fight through an ailing and aging body. Or simply couldn't make the adjustments. Sometimes it's not a slow sloping decline, it's binary and you can't quite do it anymore. You're delusional if you think you knew that he was going to have a career low BB% and nearly a career worst K% and ISO. And even given that he was basically an average player. 2015 was a good and fun year, most of the year. They had a stretch of bad offense with a bit of abysmal offense in the middle, but throughout it all you could tell the Mets could really pitch and that the offense would get tweaked through promotion, chance, or trade and that would work wonders. The Mets ended up winning by 7 games, which was well more than the value added by Cespedes. Maybe it's all intangibles, I mean, Cespedes wasn't even that good coming into that trade. He too was probably a guy that really benefit(s/ed) from the juiced ball. They continued to be pretty good in 2016, though the injury bug hit them hard and they didn't play the Nats as well head to head. The 2018 squad is also pretty good. The Nats are not unbeatable juggernauts. The Mets might legitmately be one Max Scherzer elbow twinge from winning the division again.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: You better be wrong about Omar retaking the GM spot and I think you are. I don't believe Omar would want that either. That's also why I see Ceetars argument that the existing FO sees Omar as some kind of threat to their ascension empty. They are worried that having a parallel chain of command directly to the owner can and probably will interfere with their work. Same difference really. They think Omar's opinion will be more listened to and respected than theirs. It's hard to take seriously a 'stupid' claim when it's so heavily vested in self-interest. as for the stadium. I mean, I like it, and I don't think souless is quite fair, especially given the Bronx thing. But uninspired. That pretty much covers everything the Wilpons do. great choice: "a month of interviews with various scouting type folks, hiring the best one" bold choice: "Picking someone far flung, from your Caribbean leagues, from Japan. Someone with a different outlook." progressive choice: "Pick a woman or minority a little lower on the food choice and give her a shot" uninspired choice: "Hire the okay guy that you already know and have a relationship with" same with the stadium. They didn't break new ground. They didn't commission a grandiose representation of NYC. Even the supposed 'bridge motif' that is actually a nice idea is like bare bones. They just hired the HOK firm that does stadiums and said 'get us one' and like, checked a few of the optional add ons. The Wilpons are people for whom 'amazing' is when Apple moves the headphone jack, or removes it. When Lexus changes the shade of blue on the car they drive. They're the type of people that put one of those 190 degree water spigots on the sinks in their buildings and think it's revolutionary.

again, if Sandy signed off, and they just renewed him so I doubt he was against this move. and if the boss is okay with it, the peons should fall in line and stop whining. Also Fred Wilpon needs to shut up, this is exactly why I said I didn't want to hear from him despite some clamoring for it. (including media guys that should've just asked him stuff ?) I tire of this narrative junk. I also don't believe for a second that Sandy doesn't like Terry and that somehow Fred force him to keep him around after firing him. But I also don't believe Sandy was forced on Fred, at best it was a "I know a guy, I'll let you have Sandy. He's good. it'll give you a professional hire and look good" And if so, that Sandy was foisted on the Wilpons, then he was forced by Fred to sign an internal guy as manager? and keep Warthen? Minaya has worked in the industry since. he's still connected, still respected by more than just the Mets. He's not being hired to be GM. Sandy could literally take his advice and ignore it, but if he's got something to add, that seems likely, then sure. The Mets are completely unimaginative, I'll agree with that. Deciding they needed another scouting type guy high up, they resorted tothe first guy they thought of instead of shopping around? sure, I'll buy that. Alderson hasn't been as guilty of it though, but if Fred was like "What about Omar? we wanted him around still when we fired him, he knows us, comfortable here." and Alderson was fine with it? It's the "undermining" quote from Carig that tips me off. No one's losing responsibility here, so it's gotta be personal. People that think they're in line to be GM when Sandy leaves and that Omar might be stepping in front of them. So Ricco. And roughly every rich owner thinks they're smarter than they are. I still think Sandy's got (most of) the power and authority to do what he feels is best (sans another 20 million or so?) so I'm not really too worried about a minor hiring like this. The Dodgers have a billion GMs and are praised for it.

Edgy MD wrote: smg58 wrote: When I think of Minaya's international scouting, I think of Jennry Mejia and that outfielder (whose name I have already forgotten) who were supposed to be precocious talents, but were actually juicers who peaked in AA. It's not a good impression. You're thinking of Cesar Puello, I think. I'm pretty certain that Minaya isn't the backup GM. If he's not even being given a department to run, it doesn't suggest to me that he's displacing John Ricco. Ricco has already served as interim GM while Alderson was being treated. Ricco served as the interim GM under/after Minaya too. Sherman's really driving the undermining stuff. Carig has been pushing that the front office isn't happy. (But does that just mean guys that think he's taking their job? This seems fairly normal at any company where someone is hired above you) Meddling or not I'd be shocked if Alderson wasn't okay with this. Same with Collins, who's just sorta lingering for the sake of lingering. I think Alderson is absolutely okay with that. Didn't they offer to let Minaya stay right after even? yeah. here, a quiz. which of these guys is the Dodgers current GM? Andrew Friedman Farhan Zaidi Josh Byrnes Ned Colletti Alex Anthopoulos

Benjamin Grimm wrote: My impression is that John Ricco is the guy in the heartbeat seat. My impression is that Ricco is the source of any "against the wishes of the front office" rumors

d'Kong76 wrote: Can we get Steve Phillips hired as assistant special assistant? Know what I'm sayin'? well Steve Phillips is a bad person.

archive thread: http://archives.thecranepool.net/14800/f1_t14869.shtml now let's try again. re-hired as a special assistant to Sandy Alderson.

metirish wrote: Mets a laughingstock with these Wilpon is irate stories.... It's the offseason. When the Mets are fighting for the division and the Yankees are 8 back in July...

gee, I'm so glad Fred opened his mouth.

Ashie62 wrote: How about Matz and Conforto for Yelich. Any thoughts? yes, but it's Christmas so I won't voice them.

Centerfield wrote: The Astros committed to a rebuild and built a 100 win team. The Mets never committed to rebuilding and built a 90 win team. The Marlins committed to rebuilding, repeatedly, and haven't made the playoffs in 15 years. The Astros have what's practically a historical offense. No. not practically. If you sort team seasons by OPS+ on Baseball Reference, they are literally first. That's way out to the right of the rebuilding standard deviation curve. Some of it's good drafting and development, but a lot of it's luck and timing.

lol, I put roughly zero faith in Sherman's deduction capabilities sourced by people inside AND OUTSIDE? the organization. And then he basically contradicts himself by admitting it's a soft budget. Like, if Sandy can't convince the Wilpons Neil Walker basically pays for himself in wins, he's worthless.

Nymr83 wrote: Ceetar wrote: Maybe the Wilpons knew it was coming and told him, but I believe the Madoff lawsuit hit merely a few months after Sandy was hired. I suspect they were going to try to pare down anyway, given the losing records and the bleeding money bits, but I don't think they realized HOW bad it was going to get (add the economy tanking stuff on top of that) well, it depends if Wilpon was another innocent Madoff victim or if he should have known what was coming Not really. I mean, they probably should've known the lawsuit was coming, but maybe not just how much of their money it would tie up, how much they might seek in damages (originally like a billion if I recall?) They ultimately only paid(are paying) like $60. They paid $16 million in 2016, and in 2017-2020 they're due to pay about $12 million each year. Theoretically that's a drop in the bucket and something Sterling can easily handle and shouldn't have any effect on the Mets, but in the times while the lawsuit was still going on and they were at risk of much more, they probably couldn't even touch a large portion of their own money that Picard could've determined was not actually theirs, but Madoff victims. Thinking themselves victims, or even just thinking that they'd be viewed is victims, I'm not sure they expected or told Sandy that hundreds of millions of dollars would be inaccessible.

Maybe the Wilpons knew it was coming and told him, but I believe the Madoff lawsuit hit merely a few months after Sandy was hired. I suspect they were going to try to pare down anyway, given the losing records and the bleeding money bits, but I don't think they realized HOW bad it was going to get (add the economy tanking stuff on top of that) As i said though, lot rides on 2018. If they're a winning team again, then 2017 was a weird injury-laden blip in a series of success. And one that they'd have successfully righted before it got disastrous. If everyone's hurt again and sucks, then it's probably the brief success that was fluky, gambling on the right players at the time, etc.

It's not just Selig I'm sure, there's very much a rich white guy inner circle thing there. Maybe they're not _as_ close to Manfred as Selig, but I'm sure they're still friendly.

Centerfield wrote: Those proceeds of those loans were used to make Madoff payments. They were also made because Wilpon money tied up in Madoff-associated accounts was untouchable due the lawsuit. There was a cashflow aspect of it. Even today, we have no idea how much the Wilpons actually lost to Madoff, and how much of that was actual cash versus expected return on investments that they budgeted for.

smg58 wrote: Matt Adams to the Nationals for 1 year and 4 million. A good deal for the Nats, unfortunately. A neutral deal for the Nats. he's younger than Adam Lind but he's basically Adam Lind, slightly cheaper. This doesn't make the Nationals better in any way, though it didn't stop hack Joel Sherman from skewering the Mets for it.

Frayed Knot wrote: Not sure how this means that 'we' (not even quite sure who the 'we' is here) are screwed. . the implications are, i think, that if they can afford to make new investments they can't be as cashed strapped as we're claiming they are that they need to pilfer (an undisclosed, private amount of) profits from the Mets/SNY and they should've just sunk that investment money into the Mets.