Vic Sage

i'd take Hardy. Shoeless Joe Hardy.

If i had to guess, Miller probably got votes from 5 of the 6 players (there's always one... Joe Morgan, i'd bet), and only 1 of the 4 "historians" (i.e., hack beat writers who resent the modern big-money ballplayers)... Steve Hirdt, most likely.

But he [u:12fsmtwh]CAN[/u:12fsmtwh] play LF; 2b, too. I know because i saw him do it last year. CF, too, if i recall correctly. Now whether he does those things well, or even well enough, is a different matter and depends on how you want to measure those things. Some in this thread have shown ways to parse his performance last season other than to say "he can't play". I myself saw him play well enough that he was a distinct upgrade over what we had been running out there before he showed up, and he was one of the few brights spots of the 2nd half of the season. Now obviously "better" isn't necessarily "good", but in the absence of "good", "better" is better than not.

He doesn't have to hit 40 hrs or win an MVP to be valuable. Young has had some OK years, so his age (30, in his prime) and talent level (high) would indicate a greater likelihood of decency (.235/80r/80rbi/20hr/20sb) rather than outright suckitude, barring a significant injury. In fact, I would bet that he has a higher likelihood of making a positive overall contribution to the lineup in 2014 than Lagares does.

yup.

Seems simple enough to me. Enough of those guys continue to be beholden to the offices of MLB in the living they make and they have perfectly rational professional reasons not to elevate a symbol the owners' adversaries. It takes 75% of the committee's votes to get elected and that's not easy. That means Miller needed at least 12 of the 16 votes. So assuming all 4 execs chose not to give Miller their vote, that means he had to get everybody else's vote to get in. Assuming the 6 players and 4 historians all vote for him, that still leaves Lasorda and Herzog as the swing votes. As managers, they might have felt they were occasionally undermined by actions of the union, and as marginal players, they got little advantage from the union, and as "ambassadors of the game"-type guys in their retirement, likely dependent on the good graces of the powers that be, i can see at least 1 (if not both) choosing to ignore Mr. Miller's candidacy.

Hopefully, the Ellsbury signing costs the MFYs Cano. looks like it did, at least in part. Man, they are an old expensive team. and that's before they signed KJohnson, Kuroda and Beltran! CF - Ellsbury (30/$22m) SS - Jeter (40/$12m) RF - Beltran (37/$15m) / Ichiro (40/$6.5m) 1b - Texiera (34/$22.5m) C - McCann (30/$17m) / Cervelli (28/~$1m) DH - Soriano (38/$5m) / Wells (35/$2.4m) 3b - Nunez (27/?) / Reynolds (30/~$4m) 2b - Johnson (32/$3m) / Ryan (32/$2m) LF - Gardner (32/~$4m) Suspension: A-Rod (38/$25m) SP - Sabathia (33/$22m) SP - Kuroda (39/$16M) SP - Nova (27/~$3m) SP - [Pineda] (25/~$?) SP - [Phelps] (27/~?) RP - Robertson (29/~$3m) RP - Shawn Kelley (30/~$2m) RP - C. Eppley (28/~?) RP - Adam Warren (26/~?) / Preston Claiborne (26/~?) RP - Vidal Nuno (26/~) / Cesar Cabral (25/~) RP/SP - [Huff] (29/~) I think they'll have to trade Gardner for a 3bman or 2bman. Gardner for Murphy anyone?

Melissa McCarthy may not be a comedy genius, but gosh she's close. And Bullock is better than most folks give her credit for, particularly in comedic roles.

obvious, cliched, trite... and totally hilarious.

Edgy MD wrote: That kind of runs against your "it's just money, and it's not mine" comment above, though. If the per-year money's the same, would you go with Beltran for three or Granderson for four? Granderson; and the "it's just money" is based on my philosophy, not the Wilpons. So knowing that, paying Grandy $15m 4 years from now will cripple this team because, unlike the Yanks, they won't just eat it and move on. In the abstract, or in a universe where the Mets are operating as a big-market team that can survive its burdensome contracts, then yes, Granderson for 4.

Frayed Knot wrote: Plus $21 million worth of 35 y/o Vernon Wells on the bench/LF/DH/PH Angels are paying a chunk of that ($28 of the $42 over two seasons) , but still ... Angels are paying Wells $18.6m of the $21m, which is more than a chunk.

Hopefully, the Ellsbury signing costs the MFYs Cano. Man, they are an old expensive team. CF - Ellsbury (30/$22m) SS - Jeter (40/$12m) 2b - [Cano] (31/$20-$25m?) / [Ryan] (32/$2m) 1b - Texiera (34/$22.5m) 3b - [A-Rod] (38/$25m) / [E.Nunez] (27/?) C - McCann (30/$17m) / Cervelli (28/$1m) DH - Soriano (38/$5m) RF - Ichiro (40/$6.5m) / Wells (35/$2.4m) LF - Gardner (32/$4m) / Z.Almonte (25/?) SP - Sabathia (33/$22m) SP - Nova (27/$3m) SP - [Pineda] (25/$?) SP - [Phelps] (27/?) SP - [Huff] (29/?) RP - Robertson (29/$3m) RP - shawn Kelley (30/$2m) RP - Adam Warren (26/?) RP - Preston Claiborne (26/?) RP - Vidal Nuno (26/?) RP - Cesar Cabral (25/?)

I'd be ok with 3 years for Grandy. but yes, they should let him go to any team that offers 4. He's already in decline, and while he'll be useful for a few more years, after that he will be a destabilizing burden for a small-market team like the Mets.

BBRef says Kazmir was a 1.1 WAR guy in 2013 (not 2.5) but, regardless what his WAR was, he hasn't had a season with either 30+ starts or 180+ IP since his career year of 2007, at age 23. Over the last 5 years, he had negative WARs each season from 2009-2011 and didn't even pitch in the majors in 2012 (he pitched poorly for an independent league team that year). Yeah, he had a nice season for Cleveland last year (not great, but good), but he still only gave them 150 IP and had the highest ERA on the staff. That he finished well last year is no more predictive of this year's performance (and that of 2015 too) than a strong finish by Ike Davis in 2012 was predictive of a strong start for him in 2013. So no, I don't think it's irrational to think that investing 2yr/$22m on such a guy is high risk, to say the least. But, given his limited resources, Billy boy has to make high risk moves if he wants the As to stay competitive.

i'm just joshin' ya. I don't know about this Ray fellow, but as a 10th round pick with a bad year behind him, with a fastball/change mix and no 3rd pitch, i think Matz is worth more than him as a prospect, and so DeGrom is probably a closer comp. Ray is a 22-year old LHer, so that makes him more valuable perhaps, but with 2 pitches, he's likely to end up in the bullpen as a LOOGY, if he ever makes it at all.

I'm fine with all these moves. Jordanny, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. Turner will get more in arb than he's worth. Hef? His roster spot will be more valuable than he is. If they want to take a flyer on him later, when he's showed he's recovered from serious arm surgery, he could still be available. If not, not. there's more where he came from.

20TH CENTURY TEAM These are guys who played relatively full seasons last year and are in a position to play regularly next year: OF - TORI HUNTER 2B - MICHAEL YOUNG OF - CARLOS BELTRAN DH - DAVID ORTIZ 3B - ADRIAN BELTRE OF - ALFONSO SORIANO C - AJ PIERZINSKI 1B - PAUL KONERKO SS - JIMMY ROLLINS SP - BARTOLO COLON SP - TIM HUDSON SP - BRONSON ARROYO SP - AJ BURNETT SP - BRUCE CHEN RP - JOE NATHAN RP - LaTROY HAWKINS RP - JASON GRILLI RP - JAMEY WRIGHT RP - SCOTT DOWNS RP - RANDY CHOATE BENCH: PLACIDO POLANCO, MARK DeROSA, JUAN PIERRE, RAUL IBANEZ, RAMON HERNANDEZ No speed, limited defensive range, and thin at SP, but a ton of power. This could be said of a lot of pretty good teams over the years.

keep your hands off Matz. Not only does he have a high ceiling, he's from the town of Stony Brook!

Lefty Specialist wrote: Boy, I don't want to think about paying Cano $20 million or so when he's 37 or 38. That can only end badly. Someone else will jump in and force the Yanx to overpay. I'd rather it wasn't the Mets. this. preeecisely this. Cano strikes me as the kind of guy who will age badly. his doughy body and suspect work ethic make me think a long-term huge$$ contract for him is going to end up in the A-Rod/Pujols level of mistakes. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... but soon and for the rest of our lives.

[u:1r5bywlo]My ballot (10):[/u:1r5bywlo] Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Barry Bonds Roger Clemens T#m Gl@v!ne Greg Maddux Edgar Martinez Mike Piazza Tim Raines Frank Thomas [u:1r5bywlo]i could also see myself voting for one or all of these guys at some point:[/u:1r5bywlo] Jeff Kent Curt Schilling Alan Trammell Larry Walker [u:1r5bywlo]These guys will continue to get some votes, but not mine:[/u:1r5bywlo] Don Mattingly Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Jack Morris Mike Mussina Rafael Palmeiro Lee Smith Sammy Sosa And whatever FK says about HOF voting, ditto.

St.L got a very good CFer, 26, with some power and some speed, who put up good numbers in his 1 full-time season. Freese will be 31, whose 1 good year was not as good as Bourjos'. St.L wins.

I'm not averse to the signing. I've had my eye on this guy for years, because of his tools. And he's still only 30. But so far in his career, he's been mostly tools and not so much production. 2 decent years out of 8 is not something that makes one hopeful. But the upside on Young (without over-projecting) is a line of .250 /20hr /20sb /80r /80rbi, with a CF-caliber glove. Which, you know, doesn't suck. Of course, his downside is suckitude followed by the DL. I think he could end up playing well enough to be worth something to somebody by the end of the season, but you generally don't want to spend this much when you're just taking a flyer on a guy. Still, he's better than what we have, with the talent to be MUCH better.

duh. sorry. RMPL.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Braun and, say, $60-70M? So, Braun for the annual price of, say, Marlon Byrd for the next 8 years? Oh, I'd give up Syndergaard and an enchanted hammer for that. Agreed, and the enchanted hammer, too... but not Mjolnir! I'll never give up Mjolnir!

Edgy MD wrote: So, let's scratch that itch --- how much better is Ian Kinsler (105, 97, and 118 OPS+ the past three seasons) than Daniel Murphy (108, 103, 126)? How much more/less should the Mets have offered? Would you have blown 100% of your hard-won Metly financial flexibility on the bloated slugger's bloated contract? Kinsler is better. Murphy's OPS+ is not 126... It's 105 for his career, and was 126 only in 2011 (when he missed 1/3 of a season), and then he put up a 103 (2012) and a 108 (2013) over a full seasons [and a 96 in 2009]. He'll be 29 at the start of next season, and will only be under team control for 2 arb years (2014-2015) before FAgency. Kinsler will be 32 next year, and is tied up for 4-5 years/$15m per (avg). He's a much better fielder, and a somewhat better hitter, with more power than Murph, though his SBs are trending down (age, perhaps). I can see why a win-now team like Detroit would prefer Kinsler overall. Even though Murph is cheaper and younger, they wouldn't be able to control him as long, or at a good price. Fielder will be 30 next year, and his down 2013 season still resulted in a 120 OPS+. Before that, he played every day for 8 years and averaged over 140 during that time. Now, if you think he's starting to decline, rather than 2013 being simply a standard deviation, then no, you don't want his 7yrs/under $19M avg (incl $30m payment from Detroit) on the books, particularly a team with such a short leash, cash-wise. But Texas may feel a new start in a hitter's park will revive him as the 35-40hr/100r-120rbi/100bb machine he'd been before. Personally, i would trade Murphy for Fielder +$30m in a heartbeat.