Frayed Knot

Well of course it's all moot now -- but let's speculate for a moment as to how this might have played out ift Santana did NOT have a no-trade clause: - he could still make an 'extend me NOW!!!! or I'm going FA next year' demand to Minni mgmt, which is what got the ball rolling in the first place - Said mgmt would, once he rejected their 5 x $20 attempt at getting him to stay, decide that they preferred dealing him to going play out the string and taking draft picks route - they'd also still realize that they can get more for him if they grant the trading partner a negotiating window ... particularly since Johan himself made it known that he wanted a L-T contract now rather than later - once that's all done, he effectively has N-T power simply by being able to reject any contract offer from a team he doesn't want. The process is slightly different than having a veto stamp but the result would be essentially the same. Yeah the Mets could have kept him against his will without the veto power, but once they emptied the farm system for him they weren't going to finalize the deal unless they could keep him past the one year and he had the ability to make or break that whether he had veto power or not. The only thing that N-T clause gave him was the ability to "pre-reject" teams by telling Minni, in advance, not to even bother talking to them. Reportedly he didn't want to go west which is why Seattle is neck-deep in Bedard talks but never even sniffed around Santana. Maybe Arizona went for Haren early (and gave up even more) for the same reason, although I suspect money probably had a lot to do with that too.

Feb 1, 2008 will go down as one of the grea days in NYM history. Just imagine, it was the day we were able to avoid arbitration with Pedro Feliciano!!!!

WFAN (via Jon Heyman): MLB "likely to grant an extension" if no agreement reached by the deadline.

RealityChuck wrote: Technically, the only thing they need to agree on is that Santana waive his no-trade clause. If he didn't have one, there wouldn't be an issue. Santana would be in orange and blue. The N-T clause is pretty much irrelevent by this point. The Twins wouldn't get much back unless they agreed to allow this "window" for contract talks, the Mets weren't going to give up all that talent without getting him to sign long-term, and Santa Anna himself (by all reports) also wanted this to be a permanent move rather than one-year stopover. Once those parameters were in the mix, virtually any player has himself a no-trade deal since he can just kill the trade by making demands he know can't/won't be met. Supposedly Andrew Marchand on ESPN-1050 is saying that the Santana camp is willing to make concessions off their initial demand of 7 years because he "really wants to be a Met". One Hour.

Hey, either side can back out for any reason at any time - including using the deadline as a way to kill it while trying to make it look like the other side didn't want to "do what it takes". I just don't know that Mini-soda wants to re-jump through all those hoops again just to make one of the deals they've already rejected. It's not like someone's going to UP their offer at this point and THEN pay the ransom that the rich and desperate Mets found too steep.

You wonder if [u:3c5a383df4]either side[/u:3c5a383df4] is willing not only take things to that last minute but also to walk away if they don't get what they want. I suspect not, both ways. There's also some mechanism - requiring league approval and such - for extending the deadline. If it came to that they'd probably have to show MLB brass that they're within reach and just need more time to work out the details, as opposed to being hopelessly stuck in the mud and want more time only so they can try to out-bluff the other side.

From Goldstein's chat (at BP): Q: What caused Fernando Martinez's ranking to drop so much from last year? (18th down to 51st) I realize he didn't light the world on fire in Double-A, but doesn't he get some credit for holding his own there at such a young age? Goldstein: ... ranking Martinez as the No. 51 prospect in all of baseball DOES give him credit for doing so. Lack of power and the fact that he's going to move to left field is what hurt him significantly in my eyes.

That Keith Law (espn.com) and Kevin Goldstein (BP) can rank him so far apart (10th vs 51st) shows how fickle these things can be, especially so for a player so young and with such a limited track record. Law still mentions him as a legit CF candidate. Others are much more down on his fielding instincts and knock him down a few pegs as his bat would need to be better still if he's destined to be a corner guy. ]He's been rushed a bit, but there's a good chance Minaya will want Martinez starting 2008 in New Orleans. I hope not. Not only was he jumped past A+ to get to AA but then his AA season was cut short by hsi wrist injury. I'd start him there and not move him until he tore up the league for an extended time and maybe not even then. ]He'd have to mature awfully quickly for me to think he'll be ready to patrol left field in the first CitiField game, but it appears as though that option is still being treated as a serious possibility 2010 is plenty optimistic IMO.

ESPN is reporting that they're still apart on years, structure & money. Jon Heyman (SI.com/WFAN) says they're closer; agreement on years (the one remaining plus 6 more) but still haggling over the total amount of dollars and how they're to be distributed. 22 Hours

Baseball Prospectus 2008 Prospect List: Fernando Martinez = #51 Carlos Gomez = #65 Deolis Geurra = #79 http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7092

There is *ALWAYS* a price at which you should walk away. There may be a disagreement over where that line is, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The 'just give him a blank check' attitude is the same one that would have willingly coughed up the existing package along with Martinez & Pelfrey and maybe Reyes. I still can't imagine that this isn't going to get done. Santa Anna's incentive for not making insane demands is the one where he gives up mega-money now in exchange for maybe making more a year from now ... if he doesn't get hurt ... and if the market doesn't change. 30 hours.

31 hours Someone should check in near the top of every hour and keep this current. You west coast guys have the 3AM EST shift.

KC wrote: I heard Friday at 5 pm somewhere today. That's what I've heard as well. So we're just under 32 hours and counting ... tick .. tick .. tick

Anyone know the exact deadline - or do these things tend to be a bit flexible? We need like a count-down clock up top or something. tick .. tick .. tick ..

Was anyone aware that Willie's younger (by a year) brother played in the NFL? Apparently just that one year as a DB for Green Bay, although I've also seen references to him as a Jet. The NYJ stint sounds like he may have been cut during camp or only appreared as a practice squad player and never in the reg season.

Pre-season prospect rankings from last year: Baseball Prospectus: Fernando Martinez = 18th (on their top-100 list) Carlos Gomez = 34th Baseball America: FM = 22; CG = 60 John Sickels: FM = 27; CG = 62 Hardball Times: FM = 23; CG = not in top 50 Fox Sports: FM = 8th; CG = 79th

Sure, mainly because Martinez was a teenager w/not much more than a partial season of Low-A ball on his resume at this point last year. Too raw and too far away for most to even consider where his station in the pecking order should be. What changed is that Martinez held his own at AA despite being young, being injured, and skipping a grade to get there. Prior to that it wasn't really a case of: Gomez better / Martinez worse. More like: Gomez = promising; Martinez = ummm, not sure yet so let's stick him down the list until we see more

="Benjamin Grimm"]Very pleased! (Not as pleased as Elster, but very pleased nonetheless!) Of course, it's not clear that Elster was talking about the trade when he made that announcement. He may have just been commenting for general purposes. ]This is about the only thing that would be able to knock the Giants off the back pages four days before the Super Bowl. It may even give sports talk radio listeners a brief reprieve over the next 24 hours from more in-depth anlysis of whether the Giants Monday arrival in Phoenix is an advantage or disadvantage as compared to the Patriots' Sunday touchdown.

AG/DC wrote: Seems like the broad agreement of neutral observers had Gomez as the better prospect for the last two years. What has happened that has changed that, if only in the Mets' eyes? I don't think Gomez was really ever rated all that highly by the baseball world in general (40s - 60s on most prospect lists last winter). Only Met fans seemed to conjure up an image of him as a top prospect and even then only briefly early last summer. What he had going for him was the raw speed/tools and a "projectable" body. Martinez, being younger/further from the majors, simply did have enough of a track record to go on at this point last year. Current consensus (like any such thing really exists) sees Gomez as the better OFer long-term but holds out a lot more hope for Fernando's bat.

AG/DC wrote: I sure wish MLB had a mechanism where these contingent-on-an-extension trades could be kept on the down-low until the signing was complete. That's on the list of things to do right after making the White House & Congress leak-proof.

="Nymr83":1y7bcicq]they should make the game between teams who would actually be happy to be there- college teams.[/quote:1y7bcicq] Tough to find college teams ready to play in July G-Fafif Jan 29 2008 03:01 PM Mets played in HOF Game in both '76 and '78. White Sox were the opponent in '78. Don't remember who it was two years earlier but I do remember that coach Willie Mays suited up and played. Mets were also a contestant in 1992 and, to honor their Fresno-raised Hall of Famer, called up Fresno-raised prospect Bobby Jones to start. Agree with the Bucket that it was weird seeing these sorts of games on the sked and discovering there was no media coverage. The Mets were still playing an annual game at West Point, even, into the '70s. Zvon Jan 29 2008 03:06 PM I for one, will miss this game. I went to a few over the years. Don't know if you can stuff do this these days, but you used to be able to just go on out onto Doubleday field and play ball. One trip up there, when I was a teen (many moons ago) the whole family went. My dad was hitting fungos to us ( me and three brothers) out on the field and one of my brothers and I collided trying to snag a shallow pop up into left (he was in left, me at short). Dislocated my collarbone. Ahhhh, good times. G-Fafif Jan 31 2008 04:29 PM Mets in the Hall of Fame Game, 1-2-2 lifetime, according to HOF site: Casey's Crew Falls to the Senators, 6-4, July 27, 1964 Casey Stengel brought his New York Mets to Cooperstown for the first time in team history, but the appearance would be Stengel's last. In hoping for a farewell victory for their manager, the Mets instead would fall to the Washington Senators, 6-4. Gil Hodges skippered the Senators, his second season as a manager and first after stepping off the playing field. Washington totaled 14 hits in the game, building a 5-1 lead after four. Joe Cunningham had three hits for the Senators, scoring twice. Chuck Cottier also collected an RBI double. The Mets rallied for two scores in the ninth inning on Larry Elliot's two-run home run before Don Loun recorded the final out. Don Rudolph earned the victory and Pete Craig worked three innings in relief. Brewers Power Socks Mets, 9-3, August 9, 1976 Hank Aaron and Willie Mays were no doubt Hall of Famers in 1976, when Willie's New York Mets traveled to Cooperstown to play Hank's Milwaukee Brewers. For the already-retired Mays, the Game gave the outfielder an opportunity to test his skills one final time. While neither player impacted the outcome, the Brewers, led by four home runs, beat the Mets, 9-3. Mays, who coached for the Mets from 1974-79, entertained early in the game at second base, dancing off the bag, much to the delight of the capacity crowd at Doubleday Field. The Brewers, though, would be the top entertainment, with Sixto Lezcano blasting two home runs and driving in five runs. Lezcano's first blast, a three-run shot in the first inning, gave Milwaukee a 3-2 lead. In the third, his two-run shot extended the margin to 5-2. Mike Hegan's three-run blast in the sixth and Bernie Carbo's solo shot in the seventh concluding the Brewers parade. Larry Sorenson pitched seven innings for the Brewers, allowing all three runs, to earn the win. Robin Yount made his lone Hall of Fame Game appearance. Rain Knots Tigers and Mets at 4-4, Aug. 7, 1978 Milt May made the most of the six frames the Detroit Tigers and New York Mets would play in the 1978 Game, belting two solo home runs and driving in three runs for Detroit before rain ended the game in a 4-4 tie in the top of the seventh inning. Lenny Randle's three-run blast gave New York a 4-3 lead entering the bottom of the fifth inning, before May's second clout evened the score. May would hit a first-inning home run, and later doubled in Tigers rookie Alan Trammell in the third-inning to give the club a 2-1 lead. Tom Grieve homered for New York to even the score at 1-1 in the second. Rain Ends New York's Comeback, 4-4, August 2, 1982 Appearing for the second time in three years, the Tony LaRussa-led Chicago White Sox were determined to collect a Hall of Fame Game win. With the "Clown Prince of Baseball" Max Patkin in attendance, a victory for the Pale Hose appeared in hand. Rusty Staub, the New York Mets, and a heavy rain storm changed the landscape quickly, however. Trailing 4-2, the Mets added a run in the seventh to close to 4-3. As the rains began to fall in the eighth inning for the third time during the game, Staub launched a solo home run in the bottom of the frame to even the score at 4-4. The game would be called at the end of the inning. Hubie Brooks also homered for the Mets, with George Foster, Bob Bailor and Dave Kingman all reaching base for New York. Marc Hill homered for the White Sox. One Hit Wonders: White Sox Blanked By Mets, 3-0, August 3, 1992 The New York Mets made their fifth Hall of Fame Game appearance a winning one, after losing two and tying two in four previous visits, beating the Chicago White Sox by a 3-0 margin. Three Mets pitchers combined on the only one-hitter in Hall of Fame Game history. The second best-pitched game came in 1960 when the Cubs two-hit the Indians. Gene Lamont of Chicago and Jeff Torborg of New York were both appearing for the first time as managers at Doubleday Field. Fresno, California's Bobby Jones, the Mets' first round pick in the 1991 draft, was brought in to Cooperstown to pitch, and he proved to be spectacular. He was perfect through six frames and pitched seven innings overall, allowing a hit in his final inning of work - a bad-hop single to center to minor leaguer Byron Matthews. The game was scoreless through seven innings, as Jason Bere (five hitless innings) and Scott Ruffcorn worked magic for the Pale Hose. In the last half of the eighth inning, Chico Walker led off with a home run to left field to provide the only run Mets pitchers would need. Jeff McKnight and Mackey Sasser both singled in the inning and scored on a two-run double by Daryl Boston. Tony Freitas pitched the eighth inning and was credited with the win, with Mark Dewey pitching a hitless ninth for the save. Charlie O'Brien caught the entire game for the Mets. Robin Ventura won the home run derby before the start of the game by blasting four dingers for the Cooperstown fans. Future Hall of Famer Eddie Murray made his second appearance in Cooperstown, as he played in the contest. Fman99 Jan 31 2008 06:40 PM I've never been to a HOF game, though I've been to the HOF many times. It's about a two hour drive from my home... I think this year I'm going to take the day off to attend the game. My last chance to do so and all. Mex17 Feb 03 2008 05:45 AM Making that game count (as opposed to killing it) would have been an EXCELLENT idea!!!! Surely a better one than playing in Japan! I would love to see the best players in the world playing in that little intimate park. SteveJRogers Feb 10 2008 07:56 AM An effort and petition to save the HOF game.[/url:3539uxa1] HahnSolo Feb 18 2008 10:49 AM I was in Cooperstown this weekend. Save the Hall of fame Game is a big theme of many of the local merchants. One thing they griped to me about is the timing of this year's game (the last few as well): In May, kids are still in school, it's the day after Fathers Day, and you have much fewer people in town. But they'd rather have it that day than not at all. My thought? Put lights on Doubleday Field and get a NY-Penn league team. They'd have a natural rivalry with Oneonta, and the summer crowds in town would have somewhere to go at night. Benjamin Grimm Nov 18 2008 02:00 PM It's back, sort of. I think I like this format better than the one they've been using. Better to see stars of the past than Triple-A fill-ins of the present. It's more in the spirit of the event this way. Even if most of the players involved aren't enshrinees. ="Associated Press"] Hall of Fame schedules replacement game for 2009 COOPERSTOWN, N.Y. (AP)-Baseball�s legends and old-timers will play in a new Hall of Fame Classic, a creation deemed insufficient by the group opposed to the elimination of the annual exhibition between major league teams. The inaugural Hall of Fame Classic will be held on June 21-Father�s Day and the first day of summer. It will replace the Hall of Fame game, discontinued this season after 68 years because of scheduling problems. We�re honored to be a part of this, said Hall of Famer Brooks Robinson, president of the Major League Baseball Players Alumni Association, which is working with the Hall of Fame to put on the Hall of Fame Classic. There�s a lot we can do to promote the game of baseball. This will be a great success and hit here in Cooperstown. It will be a lot of fun-autographs, family entertainment. That�s what it�s all about, he added. Next June�s game at Doubleday Field will feature four Hall of Famers and more than 20 other retired major leaguers, although the decision on who will play will not be made until later, Hall of Fame spokesman Craig Muder said. We are extremely excited to start a new Cooperstown tradition for multigenerational families everywhere, Hall of Fame president Jeff Idelson said. Given that Cooperstown is steeped in nostalgia, a legends-style baseball game is a natural fit. Idelson said the game will be part of a weekend of activities and programs, including a skills clinic featuring former major leaguers, a hitting contest and autograph sessions. Major League Baseball announced in late January that the Hall of Fame game was ending because of scheduling problems. Although U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York and other members of Congress objected, baseball commissioner Bud Selig defended the move, explaining that major league teams play 162 games in 183 days and that the addition of interleague play and interdivision matchups made scheduling two teams for a game in Cooperstown exceedingly difficult. The last game was scheduled for June 16 between the Chicago Cubs and San Diego Padres but it was rained out. Eliminating the game was unpopular with many fans, including Cooperstown native Kristian Connolly, who started a Web-based crusade to save the annual game. No longer should Cooperstown be known as the `Home of Baseball,� but instead it should be known as `The Tomb of Baseball,� she said in a statement. For 68 years, kids have been able to enjoy connecting with their modern heroes of the diamond, but now they�ll be replaced by kids who will watch old men whose playing careers they did not witness, ghosts whom they know nothing about. Connolly had sent letters to Selig, players� union leader Donald Fehr, a select group of major leaguers from all 30 clubs, and the owners and front office leaders. In July, Connolly met with Major League Baseball president Bob DuPuy during the Hall�s annual induction weekend to urge him to bring back the annual game, but was unsuccessful. Valadius Nov 18 2008 02:20 PM Hey, I like it better too. It allows kids to see the players their parents used to watch play. metsguyinmichigan Nov 18 2008 03:04 PM Good idea! Vic Sage Nov 18 2008 03:51 PM they should do the All-star game there, to celebrate the connection between the past and present that is quintessentially baseballian. Logistics would be tough, but if Cooperstown knew it was getting that game every year, it would build the infrastructure to support it, cuz it would make sick money for that little town. Nymr83 Nov 18 2008 04:25 PM the owners would never go for moving their cash cow to rural upstate NY every year A Boy Named Seo Nov 18 2008 05:52 PM It's a softball game, right? Or all the oldies playin' hardball? SteveJRogers Nov 18 2008 07:24 PM In every known version of an Old Timers Game, they do play hard ball. Only when celebs are involved is it softball. Benjamin Grimm Nov 18 2008 07:46 PM I'm sure the players won't be real old-timers. They'll probably all be under 50. SteveJRogers Nov 18 2008 08:28 PM Luke Appling hit a homer in one during the 1980s at quite an advanced age: From baseball-almanac.com ] In 1982, at the age of 75, he electrified the crowd at a Cracker Jack Old Timer's game, in Washington DocTee Nov 18 2008 08:32 PM I remember that. It was the first game associated with the All Star festivities, I think. The walls were brought in, but I think it still cleared 275'.

Still the negotiating part to go through - but a good deal if accurate as reported: Gomez Guerra Humber Mulvey

... and others http://cranepoolforum.qwknetllc.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7886&highlight=pitchers

Not that there's any specific reason to think that the one career arc having anything to do with the other - but the biggest cautionary note in this comparison is the part about Frankie V being essentially washed up after age 33. If Johan gets the loooong-term contract he's apparently looking for it could take him to age 36 or so at rates which haven't been approached by pitchers up to this point. That's a lotta lettuce to chomp on if he's lame or just becomes a shell of his current self by the time those later years roll around.

What it most likely means is that he thinks he can get a 6th (or 7th) year elsewhere. A scary proposition for whichever team trades for him.