metirish

="attgig":3g1dczwr] n. the title of the thread is pretty misleading, as it depicts him to be an a$$ which he hasn't been. [/quote:3g1dczwr] That wasn't my intention , I thought it was obvious that it was a silly play on the " if I ain't starting I ain't departing' All Star game quote form years ago. Kiner used to tell that story a lot.But maybe it was only obvious to me. Centerfield Nov 20 2008 01:11 PM ="attgig":1h6e4qxm]he's NEVER been a premadonna [/quote:1h6e4qxm] Intentional or not? Frayed Knot Nov 20 2008 01:47 PM I think Cher was a pre-Madonna. I agree that the rep Aaron has for bitching about his bullpen role is vastly overblown is some circles. The topic usually comes up each spring as a result of some scribe asking and then gets dropped almost as quickly. And, up until this year, he's gone on to pitch well despite the fact that he'd rather be starting. This "or trade him" talk from the agent is more proactive than usual as he probably figured to draw some attention to it and maybe prompt the club into action coming off the down year but it's not like he's in position to make anything happen. John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 20 2008 01:49 PM Heilman for Street. What do you say? Benjamin Grimm Nov 20 2008 01:51 PM I'd pull that trigger. Nymr83 Nov 20 2008 03:48 PM Heilman is coming off a terrible year as a reliever. He has a history of being equally terrible as a starter. Anyone can say "I want to start" but he has no credibility to say "I deserve to start." If the Mets can get anyone useful for him they should jump at it. Zvon Nov 20 2008 04:26 PM I agree with Aaron about one thing. He should get out of the bullpen, or at least the role he plays there. Why not make him long man out and a spot starter. At least that puts him in a position to crack the rotation. Personally I feel if Omar ends up short in the rotation dept. and he looks to fill that spot from within, and there is nobody better or as experienced, Heilman should be given that shot. Like Ben said, as of now: "He can't be any worse than the guy we don't have." Or grant his wish and trade him. I'd like to hear the exact reasons why the Mets don't feel like he can be a starter (and I don't mean his starting numbers- which don't exactly help his cause). I remember when I couldn't wait to run Looper out a town on a rail, and giving him an opportunity to start would have been totally insane to me. But he did get that chance with the Cards and he won 24 games over the last two seasons. Ate up 199 innings last year. If there's a spot open come spring I'll be surprised and a bit concerned. But that would be a good time to see what Aaron can do. Nymr83 Nov 20 2008 04:57 PM ]I'd like to hear the exact reasons why the Mets don't feel like he can be a starter (and I don't mean his starting numbers- which don't exactly help his cause). You can't ask for the reasons and then say "oh, but the best evidence we have I don't want to hear about." Heilman sucked as a starter, he sucked as a reliever, why give him another shot at starting? I'd rather see what Jonathan Niese can do. John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 20 2008 05:03 PM N4N, but Heilman had 3 very good years as a reliever including an excellent one in 2007. If I were any team but the Mets I'd be happy to give him a chance in a relief and/or starting role & wouldn't be at all surprised if he's good. I just don't think his brand image gives him a great chance for success here any longer. Frayed Knot Nov 20 2008 06:09 PM Heilman "bad history as a starter" consists mostly of his first year in the majors. His bad history was no more than Pelfrey's was round about 6 months ago. cooby Nov 20 2008 06:23 PM Heilman is a strike out guy and I wish he were a starter too. Frayed Knot Nov 20 2008 06:47 PM ]I'd like to hear the exact reasons why the Mets don't feel like he can be a starter There seem to be two: 1) He's only a two pitch pitcher which is fine for once around the lineup but less so the third or fourth time around 2) His "high elbow" delivery is a recipe for breakdown once you get past 100 innings or so. That was reportedly the sourece of Rick Peterson's "whoever drafted this guy should be fired" comment. I suppose one could take the cynical view that now that he's within 2 years of FA-gency why not use him as much as possible and if he breaks down ah whatthehell he's disposable anyway -- although according to the articles here no one in the heirachry has changed their minds recently. Nymr83 Nov 20 2008 06:51 PM ="Frayed Knot":2oalyv4e]Heilman "bad history as a starter" consists mostly of his first year in the majors. His bad history was no more than Pelfrey's was round about 6 months ago.[/quote:2oalyv4e] Theres no age comparison (Pelfrey stunk up the joint as age 22-23 while Heilman did so at 24-25), Pelfrey has more pitches and a superior minor league track record (despite being rushed through the minors while Heilman was coddled at AAA for 3 years) as well as being a ground-ball machine as opposed to being a homerun-prone mess. Furthermore, even if Heilman may have been suited to starting 3 or 4 years ago he has spent the last 3 years exclusively in the bullpen, including a terrible walk-fest this year, why would you want to waste valuable starts on that next year? Edgy DC Nov 20 2008 07:40 PM Heilman wasn't coddled. He spent one year mixed between AA and AAA and two years mixed between AAA and MLB because he failed to hold down a big-league job. The two track records aren't that different at all, except they gave Pelfrey a big league job to lose and made Heilman earn his. Nymr83 Nov 20 2008 07:47 PM just look at the ages, Pelfrey was forced into the majors 3 years younger and thats why he didnt succeed right away. Pelfrey had about 90 minor league innings when he was asked to make his debut, Heilman had twice that. Edgy DC Nov 20 2008 07:54 PM I don't think Heilman "sucked" in any way that Pelfrey and countless other young pitchers do. You can contextualize Pelfrey's performance, but it won't make it good. Or a-typical. That's how young pitchers trying to find themselves tend to do. You want context? How about three very effective years as a reliever without failing? You just sum that up as "he sucked as a reliever." What does one do with that? Nymr83 Nov 20 2008 07:59 PM ="Edgy DC"]I don't think Heilman "sucked" in any way that Pelfrey and countless other young pitchers do. he sucked at a more advanced age and with more minor league experience, which leads be to believe that suckitude was more indicative of what he can do than it would be with a guy who was younger and/or less exprienced (pelfrey.) ]You want context? How about three very effective years as a reliever without failing? You just sum that up as "he sucked as a reliever." What does one do with that? the most recent season isn't everything, but its more important than older ones, but more importantly my question from the beginning is why should he be given a chance to start coming off this terrible performance? what evidence is there that he would be a more effective option, as a starter, than either a FA acquisition, a trade acquisition, or a minor leaguer currently in the organization? i'd say none. Edgy DC Nov 20 2008 08:05 PM Ask his agent. Edgy DC Nov 20 2008 08:37 PM I really can't see this as anything other than Heilman's agent doing his job and maximizing his client's value. Frayed Knot Nov 20 2008 08:50 PM The point in the Pelfrey comparison is not to say that they're the same pitcher (or are going to be) but that the "failed" part of their starting careers were about the same sample size. metsmarathon Nov 20 2008 09:23 PM 7 starts into 2005, heilman had about a 4.7 era (excluding 3.1 innings of runless relief mixed in) 7 starts into 2008, mike pelfrey had a 5 era. i think we also tend to forget that heilman had a number of good outings for us this year, and turned out to have been nursing a knee injury the whole while. not for nothing, but the schaeffer results do tell us that the sum of his positive outings was greater than any other reliever. he had a number of clunkers, true, but which do you think is more the measure of his worth? the handful of true clunker outings this year, or the three prior years of good to stellar relief? all i'm sayin' is, its freakin' early and inaccurate to write off his career as "he sucked, does suck, and will always suck" we'd be fools to dump him. i hesitate, now, to put him in the rotation as more than a fifth starter, but only because i don't know that he can start having spent so many years in the pen, and i'm concerned enough about maine that i want a reliable fifth guy. but others, such as looper, have made the transition well enough. i would grant him his wish to be traded if the return were suitable to replace him in our pen. i would, hedging my bets here, also think that he could be given the chance to compete for a starting spot in spring training, and if we need to fill in for an injury, open the season with him, or allow it to be a tryout for another club. if it doesn't work out - him having the length to start - put him right back in the pen. Zvon Nov 20 2008 11:16 PM ="Nymr83"] what evidence is there that he would be a more effective option, as a starter, than either a FA acquisition, a trade acquisition, or a minor leaguer currently in the organization? I'm all for an acquisition through market or trade. If it's a proven successful starter, I'd even rather go that route. But if they don't do that and there's a spot open.... I figure Perez and Hernandez are gone, so the way things stand now I consider Niese as part of the rotation. You think they should give the open spot to Brandon Knight? Now I can see why Heilman is insulted. I know this is really not a good point business wise but Heilman has always wanted to be a starter. For this team, he has always done whats been asked of him and he has paid his dues. It's a fact he can pitch at the major league level. He should be given what he requests. A shot at a spot or a trade. If we do acquire a real starter I have no problem with Neise and Heilman trying out for that 5th spot during the spring. And if Aaron gets it Neise can be a nice fallback should he fail. Gwreck Nov 21 2008 12:07 AM I view Heilman as an extremely valuable reliever who had a bad year. His results in 2005-2007 show him to be an excellent-to-outstanding reliever, and I think the point about Heilman having many quality innings in 2008 is a valid one. It's too bad the moronic fans ruined things. Nymr83 Nov 21 2008 12:42 AM too many people to respond to... ]I really can't see this as anything other than Heilman's agent doing his job and maximizing his client's value. thats fine, but i thought we were talking about this from the perspective of what a fan who enjoys winning wants to see the team do about it. ]The point in the Pelfrey comparison is not to say that they're the same pitcher (or are going to be) but that the "failed" part of their starting careers were about the same sample size. the comparison fails because of the different ages and points into their professional careers where they were then. ]not for nothing, but the schaeffer results do tell us that the sum of his positive outings was greater than any other reliever. he had a number of clunkers, true, but which do you think is more the measure of his worth? the handful of true clunker outings this year, or the three prior years of good to stellar relief? or maybe the schaffer results tell us that he pitched well in games where nobody else deserved points while Smith, Stokes, Wagner, whoever pitched well in games where David Wright hit a homerun and John Maine went 7 innings with 1 run, schaffer is hardly a reliable anything its not at all fair to try and pull out his bad outings, they are part of who he was and he walked a hell of alot of batters, thats more indicative than anything else. why should the prior years count more? if i'm projecting a guy for 2009 i'm looking at something like 55% 2008, 30% 2007, 15% 2006 with adjustments made for age, ballpark, injuries, etc. ]I figure Perez and Hernandez are gone, so the way things stand now I consider Niese as part of the rotation. Hernandez wasn't part of the '08 team anyway so whats he got to do with anything? right now you have 1 guy (perez) who needs replacing and 1 more spot (the spot that was filled by Martinez + a managerie of spot starters) ]I know this is really not a good point business wise but Heilman has always wanted to be a starter. For this team, he has always done whats been asked of him and he has paid his dues. It's a fact he can pitch at the major league level. He should be given what he requests. A shot at a spot or a trade. thats not a good point baseball wise forgetting business. i don't believe in "paying your dues" you get "paid your money" so shutup and do as you're told. it's fact that he has never pitched succesfully as a MLB starter and its fact that he's coming off a terrible year. he shouldn't be given what he requests, he should be given precisely what is best for the New York Mets winning as many baseball games as possible in 2009. ]It's too bad the moronic fans ruined things. yeah, its the fans fault that he walks people and gives up homers. thats blaming the victims. duan Nov 21 2008 06:35 AM here's where i stand I hated the line of "he's too important to the bullpen" the fact of the matter is a bullpen arm is a lot less expensive to replace then a starting one. Ryan Dempster's getting a $52 million contract on the basis of last seasons starting stats, not on his bullpen performance of the previous 3 years or so. The best 2/3 relievers in the market will be lucky to get in the that range. So if you will, be Aaron Heillman and compare your career arcs to Mr Dempsters and see whether in two years time you'd prefer to have had a decent run at starting to see whether you could be as good a starter as you were a reliever in 06 & 07 metsmarathon Nov 21 2008 07:09 AM ]why should the prior years count more? if i'm projecting a guy for 2009 i'm looking at something like 55% 2008, 30% 2007, 15% 2006 with adjustments made for age, ballpark, injuries, etc. well, if we give him no credit whatsoever for being injured last year, the above formula gives us the following approximate line: 80.2 IP 74 H 38 ER 9 HR 36 BB 74 SO 4.26 ERA which strikes me as at least serviceable, and definitely not "sucks" Frayed Knot Nov 21 2008 07:34 AM ]the comparison fails because of the different ages and points into their professional careers where they were then It's not perfect, but also not as huge as you're making it out to be. Yes, Heilman was two years older than Pelfrey during his early days as a starter (although Pelfrey was a pro earlier on accout of being drafted as a College Jr. rather than as a Sr.) but the results as a starter over pieces of their first 3 seasons aren't all that dissimilar: AH: 135 IP, 5.85 ERA; 1.49 WHiP MP: 150 IP; 5.34 ERA; 1.71 WHiP And, again, I'm not trying to claim that they're the same pitcher or paint a rosy picture of Heilman's 2008 season (he stunk) but rather I'm against this idea of relying solely on limited data from that early in a career to show that he not only wasn't good at it but also as 'proof' that he never can be. Apply that same standard to Pelfrey or just about any other young pitcher and a big chunk of hurlers in MLB would never have been given the chance to get to where they got. I think the death of Heilman as a starter was more a product of Peterson's reaction to his pitching motion than it was due to his early career struggles. Edgy DC Nov 21 2008 08:14 AM Limited data is limited data whether you're 22 or 32. I'd like to have seen Heilman get a start or two or three last year to see if it helped him make the adjustments he needed to make. If he did modestly well, it might have made him a better releiver. If he did very well, we'd have an opportunity. As it was, he threw the most dis-spiriting ball four since Kenny Rogers.

The Mets' Daniel Murphy was batting .397 (25-for-63) with eight doubles, two home runs and 18 RBIs in 15 games in the Arizona Fall League. (Newsday / David L. Pokress) ] The Mets' second-base experiment with Daniel Murphy temporarily has been shelved now that he is scheduled to have an MRI on his right knee today at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan. Murphy, 23, left the Arizona Fall League after complaining of "discomfort" in the knee during batting practice before a game on Nov. 11. The Mets have refused to categorize the injury as either a sprain or strain until the results of the MRI and it is uncertain whether he will return to finish the AFL season. Murphy was batting .397 (25-for-63) with eight doubles, two home runs and 18 RBIs in 15 games for the Peoria Saguaros. General manager Omar Minaya insists that Murphy was not being groomed as a potential second baseman for next season despite his duties with Peoria. But with the Mets in the market for an everyday leftfielder -- perhaps free agent Raul Iba�ez -- the more positions Murphy can play, the better chance he has of contributing at the major-league level. It is highly unlikely that the Mets would try to get by with another platoon of Murphy and Fernando Tatis in leftfield, despite its success last season. Murphy, a surprise call-up in early August, batted .313 (41-for-131) with nine doubles, two home runs and 17 RBIs in 49 games for the Mets. He also hit .375 (12-for-32) with runners in scoring position and batted .462 as a pinch hitter with one homer, five RBIs and six walks.

Aaron Heilman didn't say that but....... ] Aaron Heilman wants starting role with Mets or a trade BY ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Wednesday, November 19th 2008, 10:20 PM Aaron Heilman doesn't necessarily want out of New York. He just wants out of the bullpen. But if the Mets insist he remain a reliever, Heilman wants to be traded. NEWS' HOT STOVE CENTRAL "The object the entire time has never been to get out of New York," Heilman's agent Mark Rodgers told the Daily News. "The object is to get out of the bullpen. The most success he's ever had as a pitcher has been as a starting pitcher. He was drafted by the Mets as a starting pitcher." A source with knowledge of the Mets' internal discussions suggested there's an organizational split about Heilman - with chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon wanting him to remain and other key front-office personnel favoring a trade. There isn't a shortage of teams that want Heilman as a starter, with the Rockies believed to be among at least six teams intrigued. The Mets have remained adamant that Heilman, who turned 30 last week, will not be considered for a rotation spot. A Met official Wednesday reiterated that the organization is giving no consideration to using Heilman as a starter in '09. That's the case even with Johan Santana, Mike Pelfrey and John Maine the only established starters under the team's control. Heilman made 25 starts for the Mets between 2003 and '05. He went 5-13 with a 5.93 ERA. Those statistics include the very beginning of his major-league career, when he struggled before lowering his arm angle. The Mets, fairly or unfairly, have viewed Heilman as primarily a fastball-changeup pitcher, which makes him better suited for relief work. The last time the Mets even allowed for the possibility of Heilman moving back to the rotation came during spring training in 2006. Before that, he had spent the offseason participating in winter ball in the Dominican Republic in an attempt to regain a starting role. He dominated in the Grapefruit League that year, with a 1.29 ERA and 11 strikeouts and no walks in 14 innings. The Mets instead awarded Brian Bannister that fifth starter's role, albeit after the rookie posted a 0.95 ERA in the spring. Heilman came to believe that the battle was heavily weighted against him, and that the Mets had let him go to winter ball to prepare for a starting role only to appease him. The righthander did go on to excel in a relief role in '06, combining with Duaner Sanchez and then Guillermo Mota to serve as a bridge to Billy Wagner. That was until, of course, Heilman served up that homer to Yadier Molina in Game 7 of the NLCS. Heilman's starting resume includes an April 15, 2005 one-hit shutout against the Marlins, in which Luis Castillo's fourth-inning infield single was the lone hit. Heilman has four years, 123 days of major-league service time. He is arbitration eligible, and can't be a free agent until after the 2010 season - his six-year service time threshold. Although Heilman often gets flak on talk radio because of his desire to return to starting, he is never disruptive in the clubhouse and addresses the subject only when asked. "The objective is not to be traded," Rodgers said. "The objective is to get out of the bullpen."

Going on your 20 game comment I found this interesting. ] According to the Elias Sports Bureau, he's just the fifth pitcher since 1900 to win 20 games or more in the final season of his career -- and the first since Sandy Koufax in 1967. He's the only pitcher in that group to win his 20th game in his final start.

If I remember "Moneyball" correctly Billy Beane wanted the first round to be best of seven , he called the post-season a "crapshoot". ] NEW YORK -- Lew Wolff has a way to shorten baseball's postseason: Make the first round best-of-one. "I'd make it one-game-and-you're-out for the first series," the Oakland Athletics owner said Wednesday. "It would be exciting. It would be great." Begun in 1995, the division series has been a best-of-five competition. Some people have advocated it be expanded to best-of-seven, matching the league championship series and the World Series. Baseball commissioner Bud Selig has repeatedly said he favors the current format. Wolff said he hasn't brought up his concept with Selig. "No, I'm afraid to do that," he said. Under the current format, Game 7 of the World Series wouldn't be until Nov. 5 next year. Selig said during this year's World Series that the postseason has too many off days, but shortening it appears to be impossible if Major League Baseball sticks to having the World Series start on a Wednesday, a schedule that began in 2007. On other matters, Wolff said he's inclined to keep newly acquired outfielder Matt Holliday for the entire season, even if he becomes a free agent next November and leaves the A's. "I'd rather take the two draft choices than lose him in the middle of the season," Wolff said. Holliday, obtained from Colorado, is represented by Scott Boras, who advocates that clients not sign contracts before filing for free agency. Wolff said that in preparing for an amateur draft, he noticed that certain prospective picks were on "one board with different colored cards." "What is that?" he asked his baseball operations employees. The answer, he said, was: "Scott Boras clients." I'll say right now that I don't like the one game playoff at all.

Me saying not to care about contracts in retrospect is silly.Taking contracts into account who would you want?

From Ken Davidoff ] Mets have choice of either K-Rod or Fuentes BY KEN DAVIDOFF The Mets have many goals and many choices in this baseball offseason, but as they take in the lay of the land now, they think they know this: Acquiring a closer will be first on their list of accomplishments. They will sign either Francisco Rodriguez or Brian Fuentes to be their closer. Whom they sign will depend on the contract terms. The free-agent market on closers has diminished to where the Mets, the only big-market team looking for an elite reliever, should have their pick of either K-Rod or Fuentes, the top two available options. Though clubs such as Milwaukee and Texas will be shopping for a closer, as well, the struggling economy has limited many clubs' budgets. Not caring about contracts which player do you want if what Davidoff says is true?

I really dig how threads at this place can turn informative and funny and interesting in a short time.

Not that I know much about the goings on in the AL but gun to my head I would have guessed Youkilis over Pedroia for MVP of the Sox let alone of the league.

I can see now why Schoeneweis and Feliciano are still in Minaya's plans , excellent work metbot.

I got to say that seeing those pictures excites me.

Most overused phrase in this competition It's not even close.

Die Hard

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Back to the Future. It's not a great movie, but I didn't like Blues Brothers at all. Ditto

="Benjamin Grimm":3p9ulhnh]I have no idea who Jim Boeheim is.[/quote:3p9ulhnh] I knew the name but googled to make sure, he is the basketball coach at Syracuse . G-Fafif Nov 18 2008 08:32 AM Top of the head list of Mets on "SNL" besides Tom Seaver (which I had completely forgotten about): Ed Kranepool and Steve Henderson in Spring Training Chico Escuela comeback sketch, 1979 (count ST invitee Nelson Briles, too, if you like) Todd Hundley in the Chris Kittan as kid being visited in his bedroom by succeedingly disappointing sports heroes sketch, 1997 (Not Mets at the time, but Gregg Jefferies, Todd Zeile and Cliff Floyd also appeared) Ron Darling in a faux press conference apologizing to "SNL" for allowing Game Six to go on so long, thus causing the show to tape for later showing, 1986 David Cone, albeit in his unfortuante MFY phase, in drag with David Wells when Derek Jeter hosted, 2001 (Cone, Mike Stanton and Felix Heredia also did cameos after 1998 World Series with Ben Stiller) Anybody remember any others? Willets Point Nov 18 2008 09:20 AM ="G-Fafif"] David Cone, albeit in his unfortunate MFY phase, in drag with David Wells when Derek Jeter hosted, 2001 That was a pretty hilarious sketch though. Edgy DC Nov 18 2008 10:12 AM ="G-Fafif"]Top of the head list of Mets on "SNL" besides Tom Seaver (which I had completely forgotten about): Ed Kranepool and Steve Henderson in Spring Training Chico Escuela comeback sketch, 1979 (count ST invitee Nelson Briles, too, if you like) Todd Hundley in the Chris Kittan as kid being visited in his bedroom by succeedingly disappointing sports heroes sketch, 1997 (Not Mets at the time, but Gregg Jefferies, Todd Zeile and Cliff Floyd also appeared) Ron Darling in a faux press conference apologizing to "SNL" for allowing Game Six to go on so long, thus causing the show to tape for later showing, 1986 David Cone, albeit in his unfortuante MFY phase, in drag with David Wells when Derek Jeter hosted, 2001 (Cone, Mike Stanton and Felix Heredia also did cameos after 1998 World Series with Ben Stiller) Anybody remember any others? Only Met to host: Garth Brooks. Frayed Knot Nov 18 2008 10:39 AM ="metirish":kmt911pg]="Benjamin Grimm":kmt911pg]I have no idea who Jim Boeheim is.[/quote:kmt911pg] I knew the name but googled to make sure, he is the basketball coach at Syracuse .[/quote:kmt911pg] And has been so for like the last million years. ESPN's 'PTI' program always mentions a sport or pop culture related birthday during its close and used Boeheim yesterday (not surprising that a college hoops coach trumps a Tom Seaver on the planet of ESPN). I just happened to hear about Michaels on the radio yesterday and the age coincidence struck me. Then in re-checking Michaels' age I saw DeVito's also. I suspect that 4 people as famous as them sharing a same-day/same-year b-day is rare - especially in an era with fewer births due to so many men being overseas. (So what were their fathers doing anyway?) Edgy DC Nov 18 2008 11:03 AM Charlie Seaver's war years from stanfordmensgolf.com: After Stanford, Seaver moved to Fresno, California in 1939. He worked for many years in the California food industry, and at his suggestion, raisins were first added to breakfast cereals. While in Fresno, Seaver won the Fresno City Amateur Championship six times, winning four consecutive titles from 1945 through 1948, and again in 1950 and 1954. In 1949, he started what would extend to 39 consecutive appearances in the Bing Crosby (now AT & T) National Pro-Am tournament. Teaming with professional Mike Fetchik (winner of the Western Open) in 1964, Seaver won the pro/am division by one stroke over Tony Lema and John Durkin. Seaver served on the Board of Directors of the NCGA and he was elected its president in 1980.He was born in 1911, so he would have been 30 when Pearl Harbor hit. They were drafting up to 45, but I'm guessing the draft boards were looking for men under 30 first. With a Princeton/Stanford education and leadership in a crucial industry --- dried food --- he was probably seen as more valuable on the home front. John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 18 2008 11:25 AM Two scoops of interesting stuff. Frayed Knot Nov 18 2008 11:39 AM - So Seaver's father was tied up in industry. - DeVito's father may have been too short to serve. - And who knows what the rules were in Canada that allowed Lorne Michaels father to be lazing around the house in early 1944 Now we just need to figure out what Boeheim's father was up to that contributed to this pre-baby boomlet. Willets Point Nov 18 2008 12:55 PM Lorne Michael's father probably had already been serving for 5 years and came home on leave. soupcan Nov 18 2008 01:23 PM Boeheim's dad was a leader in another crucial industry - amusement park shilling. metirish Nov 18 2008 01:27 PM I really dig how threads at this place can turn informative and funny and interesting in a short time.

Happy birthday Mr. Seaver.

From David Lennon ] The Mets had no interest in Jeremy Affeldt, who signed yesterday with the Giants for a reported two-year, $8-million deal, and they have not yet focused much attention on upgrading the rest of the their bullpen. As for Affeldt, one team official explained that the Mets already have two lefthanders in the pen, which suggests that Pedro Feliciano and Scott Schoeneweis are still considered part of that mix.

="Nymr83":11odcgmx]I haven't been reading as religiously since the season ended, what did Steve Jeter Rogers say that prompted this poll? i dislike him because he's a yankee.[/quote:11odcgmx] I urge you to read this. http://cranepoolforum.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10587 Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 08:28 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 17 2008 09:12 PM I think he's a guy who did something foolish. He signed with the Yankees. I think he did something more foolish. He put a deathtrap on his property or trusted someone else to do it. I think I did something foolish by stating that neither of those things is hateful. Because Steve seems so certain what's going down in my head. Rockin' Doc Nov 17 2008 08:39 PM I don't really like the word hate and don't use it lightly with regard to people. However, I used it in this poll since Steve in another thread offers the opinion that we all collectively a bunch of irrational Mariano Rivera haters. Personally, I don't know Mariano Rivera well enough to form an opinion of him as a man. Unlike Steve, I have not spent time reading up on his life. However, I do admire his talent and accomplishments as a baseball player, though I dislike the team that employs him. I do believe that he exercised poor judgement when he electrified his home swimming pool. Willets Point Nov 17 2008 08:45 PM ="Rockin' Doc":x646ax5a] Personally, I don't know Mariano Rivera well enough to form an opinion of him as a man. Unlike Steve, I have not spent time reading up on his life. However, I do admire his talent and accomplishments as a baseball player, though I dislike the team that employs him. I do believe that he exercised poor judgement when he electrified his home swimming pool.[/quote:x646ax5a] That about sums it up for me too. Centerfield Nov 17 2008 08:55 PM All kidding aside, my feelings don't really fit into one of those categories. I dislike Mariano Rivera because I hate the Yankees and because he did something unspeakably reckless. I also get annoyed at how there is a double-standard in the media for "good guys" versus "bad guys". If you guys remember, the reports of the pool incident indicated that Rivera had electrified the pool because he was sick of trespassing from neighborhood dogs. The nephew wasn't aware that the pool was still electrified and jumped in to his death. His father died trying to save him. It's amazing how many articles glossed over this fact, or neglected to mention it altogether. First of all, electrifying a pool doesn't seem like a measure aimed at keeping dogs out. It seems like a good way of frying them once they're in, so they don't visit again and the owners learn a lesson. I say this because, why is Michael Vick in jail again? Secondly, intentionally electrifying a pool when you have kids around is so reckless, I can't imagine a jury here wouldn't convict the owner of negligent homicide. I grew up around a neighborhood pool. The owners wouldn't let us into the pool within a half hour after eating...not even in the shallow end. I can't imagine anyone having such a disregard for human life that they would ever think to electrify a pool anywhere near kids. You just have to wonder what he was thinking. In his defense, this incident seems completely out of character. And you wonder if it was his call or if he even knew about the pool. Everything he does on the field is done with class (none of the K-Rod like hysterics), he is supposedly a good family man and I've never heard him say a bad word about anyone. I just think that even if good people do something this dumb, they should be called on it. Imagine how different the media would have treated this if the kid had died in Ron Artest's pool. Valadius Nov 17 2008 09:00 PM I dislike Mariano Rivera because he's a Yankee and because he's overrated. The pool incident is irrelevant to me. metsguyinmichigan Nov 17 2008 09:33 PM I think he showed bad judgment. A fence keeps out dogs and nephews, and has to be less expensive, unless its a really big fence. I'm glad he didn't start the All-Star Game. Fman99 Nov 18 2008 05:07 AM Fuck him and his pool filled with electric eels. The guy's a menace and he's stupid looking. Wait, who are we talking about? HahnSolo Nov 18 2008 07:13 AM Where's the "I hate Rivera because of Rogers" choice? holychicken Nov 18 2008 07:25 AM Where is the choice for hating him because he stole Wagner's entrance music? metsguyinmichigan Nov 18 2008 08:20 AM ="holychicken":2tzg0576]Where is the choice for hating him because he stole Wagner's entrance music?[/quote:2tzg0576] Badass! G-Fafif Nov 18 2008 08:42 AM ="metsguyinmichigan":1u1s036d]I'm glad he didn't start the All-Star Game.[/quote:1u1s036d] It didn't really count as a result.

Neyer thinks a wider net should be cast , talks about Beltran. ] Cast a wider net for MVP award Monday, November 17, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry In the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Joe Strauss sets up today's National League MVP results: Does a player often described as his league's most dominant hitter win this year's award for leading in several significant categories for an overachieving but ultimately fourth-place team? Or does the honor go to a lefthanded slugger who led the league in home runs and RBIs by a wide margin and helped push his team to a division title while striking out a whisk shy of 200 times? Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols versus Philadelphia Phillies first baseman Ryan Howard: the 2005 NL MVP versus the 2006 NL MVP. Does remarkable consistency for a team that unexpectedly remained in playoff contention for most of the season trump a streak hitter whose late-season tear coincided with his club's push to the postseason? Well, now we know. We know that the MVP did wind up coming down to Pujols versus Howard, and we know the former trumped the latter. As he should have. Pujols destroyed Howard in baseball's two more important statistics, on-base percentage (.462 to .339) and slugging percentage (.653 to .543). There are other statistics, and Howard did quite well in some of them. Howard scored more runs, and drove in more (in fact, he drove in more than anyone else). He hit more home runs (more than anyone else). His team won more games (and the World Series, but that doesn't count). The problem for Howard's viability as an MVP candidate is that the things he did more of were utterly dwarfed by the things Pujols did more of. In Howard's defense, he did exceptionally well -- .320/.439/.589 -- with runners in scoring position. Unfortunately (again) for Howard's viability, Pujols did significantly better: .339/.523/.678. What's more, Howard is easily neutralized; in late-and-close situations -- when the enemy manager can usually summon a lefty reliever from the bullpen -- he batted just .158/.306/.337 this year. Meanwhile, Pujols was his usual awesome self in those same situations. The question this year shouldn't have been, "Pujols or Howard?" The question should have been, "Who else deserves serious consideration?" Pujols' statistics are so impressive that he was always going to be the most popular choice from a non-playoff team. But must he be the only popular choice? Lance Berkman's totals weren't as impressive as Pujols', but Berkman's clutch performance was even more impressive. When games were late and close -- in the seventh inning or later, with his team tied, ahead by one, or with the tying run at least on deck -- Berkman batted .354/.447/.823, with 10 homers in only 79 at-bats. Those numbers are what push Berkman slightly ahead of Pujols in Win Probability Added, which is about as good a measure of value as you'll find. At least purely in terms of hitting. In past years, Pujols has been justifiably considered an outstanding fielder and baserunner. This year, Berkman was the better baserunner and quite possibly the better fielder (according to the numbers at hand). Pujols played in 148 games this year; Berkman played in 159. Albert Pujols enjoyed an incredible season, right in line with the incredible seasons that characterize his career. Meanwhile, Berkman's was just as incredible, the best of his fine career. I wouldn't want to choose between them, because I'm absolutely sure the choice isn't nearly as easy as the MVP balloting would suggest. And Berkman's not the only other worthy candidate. Carlos Beltran doesn't hit like Pujols or Berkman, but he's a Gold Glove center fielder and one of the five or six best baserunners in the National League. Did anyone even notice that Hanley Ramirez -- a poor shortstop but still, it should be said, a shortstop -- upped his walks from 52 to 92 and led the National League with 125 runs? And finally, there's Chase Utley, who played Gold Glove-quality defense (but didn't win) and hit like the dickens. If MVP stood for Most Valuable Phillie and the correct answer wasn't Brad Lidge, it might well be Utley. Berkman finished fifth. Lidge finished eighth. Ramirez finished 11th. Utley finished 15th. Beltran finished 22nd.And I can't help but wonder if the voters might want to consider casting their nets a bit wider next year. There's more to baseball than just hitting, you know.

Jeremy Affeldt signs with the San Francisco Giants for two years.

From Buster Olney ] Mets looking for strikeouts in bullpen Monday, November 17, 2008 There are no perfect stats, but in an era when 100 pitches has become a threshold for starting pitchers, and when bullpens are often left to for account for the last nine to 12 outs even when they assume leads, here's a number which carries some meaning: the strikeout ratio for bullpens. You can find the eight teams that made the playoffs among the top 10 ranked teams in strikeout ratio in 2008. The year before, five playoff teams ranked among the top 10 in bullpen strikeout ratio. Some years the number has been lower, but in general, it's a quality that leads to quality, because of the impact of a strikeout -- fewer balls are put into play and this reduces the chance for mistakes, fewer inherited runners score, and the strikeouts are indicative of dominance. All of this is why the Mets are focusing on relievers who generate missed swings, who get strikeouts, as they reshape their bullpen. They don't intend to settle on a high-wire closer; they want a couple of relievers who come in and control innings. The Mets' relievers finished the 2008 season ranked 17th in the ratio of strikeouts-per-nine-innings, at 7.48, but that standing dipped after Billy Wagner was hurt at midseason. Wagner had whiffed 52 in 47 innings before he was hurt, and if you take him out of the equation -- and he is not expected to pitch in 2009 -- then the Mets' K-per-9 ratio for the rest of the relievers was 7.22, a ratio that would've placed them 23rd among 30 teams in 2008. With that in mind: � In 2008, Francisco Rodriguez struck out 77 hitters in 68.1 innings, and in his career, his strikeout ratio has been staggering -- 587 punchouts in 451.2 innings. But there is a concern among scouts, generally, that K-Rod's growing reliance on his breaking ball might eventually lead to a breakdown, and they wonder if we're already seeing signs of wear: His WHIP of 1.288 was the highest in his career. � Brian Fuentes racked up a whopping 82 strikeouts in 62.2 innings, confounding hitters with his unusual delivery. In his career, he has averaged more than a punchout per inning (480 in 422 innings). He is naturally more potent against left-handed hitters (20 strikeouts in 53 at-bats in '08), but he gets a lot of missed swings against righties, as well (62 in 203 at-bats). Each time a player from a small market comes under consideration from a Boston, Philly or New York team, there are the inevitable questions about whether the player can survive in that atmosphere -- but sources say that the Mets are confident that Fuentes would thrive pitching in New York. � Kerry Wood did what Kerry Wood usually does when he pitches: He struck out a lot of guys, and compiled 84 in 66.1 innings. The concern with Wood, as always, is about his durability. � Trevor Hoffman had 30 saves in 34 chances for the Padres in 2008. But given the Mets' preference for power relievers this winter, Hoffman -- whose fastball is now in the low-80s -- would not seem to be a fit. � Brandon Lyon is going to get some play as a possible closer in the market, after picking up 26 saves in 2008, but he allowed 75 hits and struck out 44 in 59.1 innings; he's not really a match for New York. � The Mets won't consider Juan Cruz for closer, but they will undoubtedly be attracted to him as a possible middle reliever, after a season in which he struck out 71 in 51.2 innings, while allowing just 34 hits and holding opposing hitters to a .192 batting average. I hadn't read that before about Minaya and his staff looking for swing and miss pitchers.

Congrats to Albert , he's a remarkable player.

Jeez thanks , lump me in with Rogers.

How is my position similar to Steve's?,

="Edgy DC":3rnp96ob]Steve Rogers talks shit about the Crane Pool on another forum: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84643[/quote:3rnp96ob] omg Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 11:10 AM Goodness, Steve. I challenged you to find one such statement from me. Stop with the sweeping generalizations. You're making 'em here. You're making 'em at sites that couldn't care less about us. seawolf17 Nov 17 2008 11:16 AM /throws some popcorn in the microwave /sits back and watches train wreck Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 11:17 AM Glad I could help your day along. Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 11:25 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 17 2008 11:26 AM Steve tries to get support for his viewpoint at a Yankee forum --- while endorsing "hate" as long as it remains baseless --- and annoys them into closing the thread: http://forums.nyyfans.com/archive/index.php/t-97459.html Willets Point Nov 17 2008 11:25 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":10a3hs2z]This is becoming one of those threads, isn't it?[/quote:10a3hs2z] I guess I provoked this by asking where MLB is promoting David Wright as the "Face of Baseball". Three pages later, evidence of that contention is still lacking. SteveJRogers Nov 17 2008 11:32 AM ="Willets Point":37j7vkjm]="Benjamin Grimm":37j7vkjm]This is becoming one of those threads, isn't it?[/quote:37j7vkjm] I guess I provoked this by asking where MLB is promoting David Wright as the "Face of Baseball". Three pages later, evidence of that contention is still lacking.[/quote:37j7vkjm] Who is on covers of MLB games? Who is the Met usually featured on TV ads and marketing tools of MLB? seawolf17 Nov 17 2008 11:34 AM ="SteveJRogers"]="Willets Point"]="Benjamin Grimm"]This is becoming one of those threads, isn't it? I guess I provoked this by asking where MLB is promoting David Wright as the "Face of Baseball". Three pages later, evidence of that contention is still lacking. Who is on covers of MLB games? Who is the Met usually featured on TV ads and marketing tools of MLB? Willets Point Nov 17 2008 11:38 AM ="SteveJRogers"]Who is on covers of MLB games? A Phillie. ="SteveJRogers"] Who is the Met usually featured on TV ads and marketing tools of MLB? That would make him the face of the Mets not MLB. Here in Boston, I'd wager most baseball fans wouldn't know who David Wright is whereas they'd be familiar with Albert Pujols or Ryan Howard or even other Mets like Delgado & Beltran. Wright is a great player but hasn't gained national attention by winning an MVP or some type of batting title or appearing in a lot of postseason games. I doubt people around the nation are gnashing their teeth about how much overexposure that Wright guy gets SteveJRogers Nov 17 2008 12:03 PM Okay fine, I'll ammend the argument to suggest that he WILL be attaining the heights of the Rose/Ripken/Jeter level of hate because his image is everywhere. And don't for a second think it won't. Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 12:07 PM And then people will hate justifiably. Got it. The silly thing is, Steve, irish's position and yours seem to be similar. If you weren't so fast to choose his as a leaping off point to push your agenda against the rest of us, you'd see that. metirish Nov 17 2008 12:29 PM How is my position similar to Steve's?, Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 12:31 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 18 2008 07:27 PM Well, you seem to imply that there's an unfortuate amount of hatred flying around. Where Steve breaks from you with his his apparent belief that everybody's exercising it but him. metirish Nov 17 2008 12:33 PM Jeez thanks , lump me in with Rogers. Edgy DC Nov 17 2008 12:42 PM Not at all. It would be an unattractive lump. Centerfield Nov 17 2008 01:46 PM I called Mariano Rivera a murderer. You may direct all correspondence on that subject to me. Thanks. metsmarathon Nov 17 2008 06:25 PM wait... who hates cal ripken? i mean, fine, the holiday inn commercials are insufferable and all, but that aside, does anybody really hate him? Willets Point Nov 17 2008 06:27 PM ="metsmarathon"]wait... who hates cal ripken? i mean, fine, the holiday inn commercials are insufferable and all, but that aside, does anybody really hate him? Millions of people hate Cal Ripken. Rogers has lists of all their names! cooby Nov 17 2008 07:37 PM Hey. What does blovating mean? Fman99 Nov 17 2008 07:42 PM ="cooby":1yvq0p7i]Hey. What does blovating mean?[/quote:1yvq0p7i] I don't know. But there is a 100% chance I work it into my CPF song parody challenge play-in game. cooby Nov 17 2008 07:47 PM Fman, if you do, I promise to vote for you HahnSolo Nov 17 2008 08:04 PM ="Edgy DC":3dmxgmap]Steve tries to get support for his viewpoint at a Yankee forum --- while endorsing "hate" as long as it remains baseless --- and annoys them into closing the thread: http://forums.nyyfans.com/archive/index.php/t-97459.html[/quote:3dmxgmap] He's an equal opportunity annoyer. John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 17 2008 08:40 PM Jeezziz. Valadius Nov 17 2008 08:56 PM Steve, I don't like the fact that you bad-mouthed me on another board. Nymr83 Nov 17 2008 09:12 PM wow board-drama. and steve can't even keep it on the board. hey steve, if this place is so bad that you have to complain about it elsewhere, why are you still here? metsguyinmichigan Nov 17 2008 09:29 PM Damn, stuck in a school board meeting all day and I missed this. 1) I hate Derek Jeter. He's Mr. Yankee 2) I like David Wright. A lot. He's Mr. Met, at least the non-costumed one. 3) Mariano Rivera is a soul-less cyborg with a dangerous pool. 4) Steve needs to keeps his beefs about the 'Pool family within the 'Pool family. All caught up. metsmarathon Nov 18 2008 07:37 AM i so wish i had seen this thread earlier yesterday... i still haven't gotten an answer on what evidence there is showing cal ripken's hatedness. and i still don't know how david wright parallels derek jeter. i also would think that the whole point of this thread, initially, was to point out what i would call special hate, not just the generic 'waah i hate XXX 'cos they're our rival and they suck and blah blah blah, and i hate YYY cos he's their best player and he sucks too!' the instances stevie seems to be pulling out about fans of other teams whining over wrights accomplishments and cheering his misaccomplishments seems more like hating on, than hating. "david wright doesn't deserve to win the mvp because YYY was a muuch better player and he didnt come through when they needed him anyways" isn't hating, its hating on, or deliberately (and perhaps intellectually dishonestly) minimizing his accomplishments and value. and of course, using sound logic and reasoning in a fact-based argument against the gross overrating of a player, well, that's not hating. that's called analyzing derek jeter. and he does a terrifically poor job of relaying the conversations of this board to other boards. i mean, jeez! Benjamin Grimm Nov 18 2008 07:51 AM ="metsmarathon":3by8ybm2]and he does a terrifically poor job of relaying the conversations of this board to other boards. i mean, jeez![/quote:3by8ybm2] Is that at all surprising? It's amazing how tenaciously he's held on to this issue, even going to other boards to try to get validation for his point of view. It's appropriate that his link back to us contained the phrase "getalifealready" Centerfield Nov 18 2008 07:56 AM For the record, I have no problem with him talking badly about us on other boards. In fact, I wish he would post on those other boards more often. Like all the time. Steve, don't go away mad... themetfairy Nov 18 2008 08:47 AM There was also the great leap of logic (if you can call it that) that Steve made. He asked, "How can you not like Mario Rivera?" I answered that I found the electrified pool to be a reason not to like him. He then extrapolated that I was blinded by irrational hatred, and posted about my obsessiveness all over the Internet. Yeah, I was the obsessed one here.... G-Fafif Nov 18 2008 09:10 AM I have to confess I barely remember the Mariano Rivera pool story and don't remember, at all, the conversation here about it. That said, fuck Mariano Rivera and fuck the Yankees. I mean, geez... soupcan Nov 18 2008 09:19 AM I didn't get much of a chance to get here yesterday and read most of this thread on my BlackBerry on the train home. "It's gold Jerry, pure gold!" Seriously, I was cracking up all the way home. Edgy DC Nov 18 2008 10:03 AM I keep Metro North moving. Kong76 Nov 18 2008 07:21 PM SJR: I'm clarifing it for you by holding up a fucking mirror <=== EDC: Don't fucking mirror me. <===