batmagadanleadoff

I'd like for the Mets to build an exact size replica model of Shea Stadium over the exact same spot where the real Shea Stadium formerly stood.

="HahnSolo":3dt3qv7d]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3dt3qv7d] They probably don't want to "waste" the real estate on something that won't generate additional income. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:38 AM ="HahnSolo":2hnipag0]="Edgy DC":2hnipag0]How about here: [/quote:2hnipag0] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue.[/quote:2hnipag0] I like how Alyssa's target audience --- dyed hair, perm, tight jeans --- is walking by without turning her head, while dorkus from New Yorkus in his backward cap/ski-cap/yarmulke is wandering in to check out the insignia thongs. Hopefully, the boutique won't last the season. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 08:51 AM "WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THE BUSTS?!?!??" Are you effing kidding me, Jeff? Screw you! You built a whole goddam building and you can't find room to honor your own Hall of Fame busts? No wonder Wally Matthews hates this team. ="HahnSolo":3ngiw1aa]What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"?[/quote:3ngiw1aa] Exactly! God, I hate this shit. metirish Apr 16 2009 08:57 AM " We do have room for one bust " Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 09:09 AM This is a work in progress, and Jeff has shown himself to be a reactive manager. Why don't we give him something to react to? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 10:19 AM Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets. MFS62 Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ="G-Fafif":3129gw3s]Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets.[/quote:3129gw3s] As long as they were all a different height. Later Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ]Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? metsguyinmichigan Apr 16 2009 11:47 AM This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions. And I didn't like that it wasn't readily accessible to a lot of fans. And the writing on the display cases was ugly. I love the idea of a hall of fame, and think there absolutely needs to be one. Cleveland and Philly both have neat areas in centerfield with the kind of plaques that I imagine Jeff is talking about. Lots of people walk through the area, and each plaque tells why the person on it is important. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, [url:3o4t75mg]http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/ballpark/heritage_park.jsp[/url:3o4t75mg] then I'm OK with that. Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 11:56 AM Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 12:25 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1l6s2tnk]Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions.[/quote:1l6s2tnk] I suspect managerial indifference slowed it down, but benign neglect has perhaps been better than misguided engagement. My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:04 PM ="seawolf17":2pflv7ph]Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first.[/quote:2pflv7ph] Saw it on the YEECH pregame show and, yeah, it's a brilliant idea beautifully executed. They're even summoning family members and whoever they can find to rustle up balls for the departed MFYs. On the other hand, the Mets would appreciate it if you'd stop thinking about Brian Ostrosser while enjoying your world-class Citi Field experience. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:07 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":224d4oqf]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:224d4oqf] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:09 PM ="Edgy DC":1s2trfoy]My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field.[/quote:1s2trfoy] Since 2000, whenever they do a big event, like '06 reunion or All-Amazin' Team or Ralph Night, they move it back to the start time on the ticket. That way people are indeed in their seats. They didn't do it in '02 for Agee's induction and it was a little depressing. You might recall Seaver criticized Valentine mightily for not having his team in the dugout (they were having a meeting that saved their season, thus that 2002 pennant that flies high and proud over Citi Field). Seaver was correct. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:34 PM Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They are the only team for which a tribute to Jackie would be a perfect fit. Unfortunately, that team doesn't exist anymore. It sucks, but it's reality. Sometimes there are no good answers. The Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Mets are probably the best options left. Arguments can be given for each team, but for every argument, there is a valid argument against. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably say the Dodgers are more appropriate. But I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Which brings us to the rotunda. Does it make sense to have a Jackie Robinson tribute be the signature of the Mets new home stadium? And the answer, in my opinion, is no. Whether or not the Dodgers are a more appropriate team, a featuring a Brooklyn Dodger as the centerpiece of the new home of the New York Mets is, at best, awkward. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:37 PM ="HahnSolo":3e4tnjsm]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3e4tnjsm] Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 01:43 PM Would it make more sense for a statue of Connie Mack to be in Philadelphia or Oakland? Should Walter Johnson be honored in Washington, or in Minneapolis? My votes would go to Philadelphia and Washington. So I think it's more appropriate to honor Jackie Robinson in New York than in Los Angeles. But I think the big rotunda at the Mets ballpark is a bit much. Were it up to me, Citi Field would not look like Ebbets Field. It wouldn't be retro at all. And there would be a nice big memorial to Jackie Robinson in Brooklyn somewhere. Maybe somewhere near the anchorage of the Brooklyn Bridge, so that people could walk there from Manhattan. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2009 04:33 PM What should be noted as part of the rotunda display is that --- as good as he was at baseball, football, and track --- his best sport might have been underwear basketball. Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, that might have been my best sport also. Swan Swan H Apr 16 2009 01:52 PM Michael Jordan's Hanes ads are clearly a tribute to Jackie Robinson's underwear basketball career. Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 01:53 PM ="Centerfield"]Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. ... and he can not lie. ]Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, [underwear basketball] might have been my best sport also. TMI Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:04 PM Who farted? Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:06 PM ="G-Fafif":1e8206y9]="metsguyinmichigan":1e8206y9]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:1e8206y9] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood.[/quote:1e8206y9] I am a big fan of busts. HahnSolo Apr 17 2009 06:56 AM After my first trip to Citi and the rotunda, my feelings have somewhat changed. I was never a big fan of the entire rotunda being dedicated to Jackie. however, having seen it up close, it is done in a quite classy way, and it is completely un-intrusive. You are not clubbed over the head with Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. It's there, yes, and it is prominent, but you can just as easily avoid it. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:42 AM I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles. themetfairy Apr 17 2009 09:17 AM ="seawolf17":38irfm09]I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles.[/quote:38irfm09] But way less slimy than the MFY's version. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 11:46 AM Have you met him? Don't count out his sliminess. We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 04:53 PM ="seawolf17"]We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. A Geneseo guy? cooby Apr 17 2009 09:48 PM Funny, all of it. Kong76 Apr 17 2009 09:52 PM FK: OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? <<< I thought it was a typo too. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 10:10 PM It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel. MFS62 Apr 18 2009 06:56 AM ="G-Fafif":3jk8wpwh]It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel.[/quote:3jk8wpwh] Don't start getting all sweet on us when this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Later

="Benjamin Grimm":3fm5ql4w]Yes, the Giants and Dodgers are in California now, but Mel Ott, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw, Bill Terry, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Wilbert Robinson, Zach Wheat and all those other guys still belong to New York.[/quote:3fm5ql4w] One of the flaws in this otherwise valid point is that the NY Giant fans probably hated the B'klyn Dodgers -- even more than we might hate the MFY's, given that the old NY rivals played each other 18 times a season. Ironically, if not fittingly, I seem to be in the minority on this one, though. HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Edgy DC":3kwmr6o7]How about here: [/quote:3kwmr6o7] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:34 AM ="HahnSolo":3dt3qv7d]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3dt3qv7d] They probably don't want to "waste" the real estate on something that won't generate additional income. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:38 AM ="HahnSolo":2hnipag0]="Edgy DC":2hnipag0]How about here: [/quote:2hnipag0] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue.[/quote:2hnipag0] I like how Alyssa's target audience --- dyed hair, perm, tight jeans --- is walking by without turning her head, while dorkus from New Yorkus in his backward cap/ski-cap/yarmulke is wandering in to check out the insignia thongs. Hopefully, the boutique won't last the season. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 08:51 AM "WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THE BUSTS?!?!??" Are you effing kidding me, Jeff? Screw you! You built a whole goddam building and you can't find room to honor your own Hall of Fame busts? No wonder Wally Matthews hates this team. ="HahnSolo":3ngiw1aa]What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"?[/quote:3ngiw1aa] Exactly! God, I hate this shit. metirish Apr 16 2009 08:57 AM " We do have room for one bust " Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 09:09 AM This is a work in progress, and Jeff has shown himself to be a reactive manager. Why don't we give him something to react to? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 10:19 AM Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets. MFS62 Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ="G-Fafif":3129gw3s]Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets.[/quote:3129gw3s] As long as they were all a different height. Later Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ]Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? metsguyinmichigan Apr 16 2009 11:47 AM This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions. And I didn't like that it wasn't readily accessible to a lot of fans. And the writing on the display cases was ugly. I love the idea of a hall of fame, and think there absolutely needs to be one. Cleveland and Philly both have neat areas in centerfield with the kind of plaques that I imagine Jeff is talking about. Lots of people walk through the area, and each plaque tells why the person on it is important. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, [url:3o4t75mg]http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/ballpark/heritage_park.jsp[/url:3o4t75mg] then I'm OK with that. Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 11:56 AM Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 12:25 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1l6s2tnk]Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions.[/quote:1l6s2tnk] I suspect managerial indifference slowed it down, but benign neglect has perhaps been better than misguided engagement. My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:04 PM ="seawolf17":2pflv7ph]Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first.[/quote:2pflv7ph] Saw it on the YEECH pregame show and, yeah, it's a brilliant idea beautifully executed. They're even summoning family members and whoever they can find to rustle up balls for the departed MFYs. On the other hand, the Mets would appreciate it if you'd stop thinking about Brian Ostrosser while enjoying your world-class Citi Field experience. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:07 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":224d4oqf]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:224d4oqf] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:09 PM ="Edgy DC":1s2trfoy]My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field.[/quote:1s2trfoy] Since 2000, whenever they do a big event, like '06 reunion or All-Amazin' Team or Ralph Night, they move it back to the start time on the ticket. That way people are indeed in their seats. They didn't do it in '02 for Agee's induction and it was a little depressing. You might recall Seaver criticized Valentine mightily for not having his team in the dugout (they were having a meeting that saved their season, thus that 2002 pennant that flies high and proud over Citi Field). Seaver was correct. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:34 PM Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They are the only team for which a tribute to Jackie would be a perfect fit. Unfortunately, that team doesn't exist anymore. It sucks, but it's reality. Sometimes there are no good answers. The Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Mets are probably the best options left. Arguments can be given for each team, but for every argument, there is a valid argument against. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably say the Dodgers are more appropriate. But I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Which brings us to the rotunda. Does it make sense to have a Jackie Robinson tribute be the signature of the Mets new home stadium? And the answer, in my opinion, is no. Whether or not the Dodgers are a more appropriate team, a featuring a Brooklyn Dodger as the centerpiece of the new home of the New York Mets is, at best, awkward. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:37 PM ="HahnSolo":3e4tnjsm]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3e4tnjsm] Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 01:43 PM Would it make more sense for a statue of Connie Mack to be in Philadelphia or Oakland? Should Walter Johnson be honored in Washington, or in Minneapolis? My votes would go to Philadelphia and Washington. So I think it's more appropriate to honor Jackie Robinson in New York than in Los Angeles. But I think the big rotunda at the Mets ballpark is a bit much. Were it up to me, Citi Field would not look like Ebbets Field. It wouldn't be retro at all. And there would be a nice big memorial to Jackie Robinson in Brooklyn somewhere. Maybe somewhere near the anchorage of the Brooklyn Bridge, so that people could walk there from Manhattan. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2009 04:33 PM What should be noted as part of the rotunda display is that --- as good as he was at baseball, football, and track --- his best sport might have been underwear basketball. Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, that might have been my best sport also. Swan Swan H Apr 16 2009 01:52 PM Michael Jordan's Hanes ads are clearly a tribute to Jackie Robinson's underwear basketball career. Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 01:53 PM ="Centerfield"]Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. ... and he can not lie. ]Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, [underwear basketball] might have been my best sport also. TMI Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:04 PM Who farted? Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:06 PM ="G-Fafif":1e8206y9]="metsguyinmichigan":1e8206y9]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:1e8206y9] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood.[/quote:1e8206y9] I am a big fan of busts. HahnSolo Apr 17 2009 06:56 AM After my first trip to Citi and the rotunda, my feelings have somewhat changed. I was never a big fan of the entire rotunda being dedicated to Jackie. however, having seen it up close, it is done in a quite classy way, and it is completely un-intrusive. You are not clubbed over the head with Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. It's there, yes, and it is prominent, but you can just as easily avoid it. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:42 AM I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles. themetfairy Apr 17 2009 09:17 AM ="seawolf17":38irfm09]I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles.[/quote:38irfm09] But way less slimy than the MFY's version. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 11:46 AM Have you met him? Don't count out his sliminess. We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 04:53 PM ="seawolf17"]We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. A Geneseo guy? cooby Apr 17 2009 09:48 PM Funny, all of it. Kong76 Apr 17 2009 09:52 PM FK: OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? <<< I thought it was a typo too. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 10:10 PM It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel. MFS62 Apr 18 2009 06:56 AM ="G-Fafif":3jk8wpwh]It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel.[/quote:3jk8wpwh] Don't start getting all sweet on us when this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Later

="Frayed Knot"]] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. I thought that quote was disturbing, myself. If there's no room for busts, then there can't be much room for a Mets HOF done right. It's Hot dogs over History.

="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1aroddf7] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:1aroddf7] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:1aroddf7] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:1aroddf7] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite?[/quote:1aroddf7] There's not one single dishonest bone in my UCLA reference. It's highly likely, and thus reasonable to assume, that if this Jackie Robinson Rotunda was in Chavez-Ravine, connected to Dodger Stadium -- where it belongs, I believe -- there'd be UCLA references in the Dodgers tribute. The UCLA reference is superfluous to my opinion, not only because it wouldn't change my view, as I already stated, but also, because I wasn't editorializing for the Dodgers to build their own JR Rotunda. Frankly, I could care less what the Dodgers do. I merely opined that the Mets shouldn't honor an opponent -- not that the Dodgers should honor their own. And on that basis, my opinion is just as valid with or without the Bruin nod. I suppose that this is my old-school sensibilies surfacing -- where a baseball player in any uniform other than a Met uniform, is the enemy, and that I'd plunk JR just as easy as I might plunk Tommie Agee in a meaningless Spring Training game if they were opponents and I thought that the situation called for a plunking. I fully realize that here, you might note that JR's contributions transcended the game itself; that there is a larger point to be made by honoring JR with an eponymous Rotunda at Citi, and that the daily battles between two baseball teams are nothing more than tiny points of paint in the grand masterpiece that was JR's life. And you'd be right. Just as right as Grimm was when he noted that JR belongs to NY baseball fans as much as he belongs to anybody else. There's no right answer here, other than that Wilpon owns the Mets and he can do as he wishes. And because there's no right answer here, this discussion won't resolve itself as neatly and as irrefutably as a mathematical proof. But my POV is just as valid as yours is. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 01:51 PM I never said it wasn't. Ashie62 Apr 15 2009 05:34 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":2zuig4gl]I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium.[/quote:2zuig4gl] It sure fells that way..Makes me pine for Shea all the more Kong76 Apr 15 2009 06:56 PM This list on a certain site needs some major work after tonight ... Larry Elliot Ron Taylor Chuck Taylor Hank Webb Ron Hodges Tom Hall Ron Hodges Roger McDowell Butch Huskey Mo Vaughn G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:22 AM Tim Smith, in the Snooze, praises the Rotunda, says in essence that no, you can't have both the Jackie salute and Mets history. You get the former, stop complaining about the latter, you small-minded Mets fans. Jeff Wilpon is Viva Las Vague herein. (How do you build a new ballpark and decide "no room for busts," and I hope he means Luis Castillo.) ]Mets and Citi Field do right by saying, 'and here's to you Mr. Robinson' The day after the Mets christened Citi Field their fans decried the lack of team history in the $850 million ballpark. It had a sterile corporate feel, they said. Where was the homage to World Series victories? Where were the tributes to past Met greats? All those complaints rang hollow Wednesday as the team dedicated the Jackie Robinson Rotunda on the day that Robinson broke Major League Baseball's color barrier 62 years ago. The rotunda is a replica of the one at Ebbets Field, where Robinson played for the Dodgers, and is four times as big. Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband. Walking into the Jackie Robinson Rotunda Wednesday afternoon was a near religious experience for Mrs. Robinson. "It's kind of a spiritual thing," she said. "It's like being at St. John's Cathedral in Rome. I was so moved. I don't think everybody will feel that way." Certainly not those short-sighted fans who want monuments to past Mets glory in place pronto. The Mets are to be commended for conceiving and constructing the Jackie Robinson Rotunda, which extols the nine virtues that Robinson lived by: Justice, teamwork, determination, persistence, courage, excellence, citizenship, commitment and integrity. In the modern game, as in much of modern life, those virtues seem outdated. Director Spike Lee, who attended the dedication ceremony, said Robinson's legacy remains as significant today as it did when he stepped onto Ebbets Field 62 years ago, enduring the crushing social pressure and still succeeding. "Jackie and Branch Rickey knew if they were not successful in this so-called race experiment that this would set African-Americans back 10-15 years no matter what field we're talking about," Lee said. "We're talking about in all fields - science, politics, not just sports." It is hard for modern-day players to even imagine what Robinson endured to play baseball. "I can't believe he went through that kind of stuff (racists taunts)," said Jose Reyes. "It's just crazy to me. But it just shows how strong he was in mind to go through it and still play." Reyes said he has not visited the rotunda yet, but he said he has always drawn inspiration from Robinson. "Just to see the way that he played the game, the fact that he never gave up and he was always working hard," Reyes said. "He showed that you can never hang your head, and that you have to be strong every day." Fred Wilpon, the Mets chairman and CEO, was 16 when he played a game at Ebbets Field, and those nine virtues that Robinson espoused were alive inside the clubhouse. The Mets are the closest touchstone to Jackie Robinson (the National League replacement in New York for the departed Dodgers and Giants), so Wilpon knew he wanted to honor Robinson when they decided to build a new ballpark, particularly if the new place would include elements of Ebbets Field. Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' COO, said Mets fans who desire a more grand tribute to former Mets greats will get their wish soon. "We have some banners that will go up. We have some plaques that will go up," Jeff Wilpon said. "We have some retired numbers. We don't have room to do busts like we did before, but we're going to do some Hall of Fame plaques. We have some other things that we're going to do." Fred Wilpon said the Jackie Robinson Rotunda doesn't trump anything that the Mets will do in the future to honor their own history, but he believes the rotunda is a significant symbol in its own right. He's absolutely correct. By displaying the virtues on the walls and floor of the rotunda, baseball fans who enter Citi Field will at least be reminded that Robinson lived by them, and by smashing Major League Baseball's color barrier, he forced the sport, and America, to live by them as well. Baseball isn't such a virtuous place right now. It is still trying to come to grips with the blight of steroids and the taint of street agents and scouts skimming the signing bonuses of some Dominican players. And for the first time since 1995, there was an increase (2%) in the number of African-American players on major league rosters this season, according to a report released yesterday by Richard Lapchick, director of the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports. "I feel encouraged. It's not a huge leap, but a step forward," said Rachel Robinson. "We have to feel encouraged, also inspired by the progress." The Mets have an African-American manager, Jerry Manuel, and just one African-American player, Gary Sheffield, who was starting his first game in right field Wednesday night and was looking for his 500th home run. The Mets don't yet have an homage to their history as grand and glorious as the Yankees in their new home. But they have done them one better by creating a permanent monument to the legacy of Jackie Robinson. "By doing this, the permanence of this, this is not a traveling exhibition at a museum, this is a welcoming mat that he should have had back in the day when he came into baseball," said Jeff Wilpon. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:25 AM Jeff seems very enthusiastic about this. I can't wait to see the results. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 16 2009 07:40 AM Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:44 AM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":tzgvm407]Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type.[/quote:tzgvm407] Oh I'm with you , I was being sarcastic....you know he has season tickets in the Pepsi Porch , it reminds him of Tiger Stadium..... Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 07:45 AM ="G-Fafif":9s02mgja]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:9s02mgja] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:53 AM ="Edgy DC":uaz5b2d8]="G-Fafif":uaz5b2d8]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:uaz5b2d8] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field?[/quote:uaz5b2d8] When did Ebbets Field move to Cincinnati, St. Louis and Philadelphia? Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 07:57 AM Well, if it could move to Queens... Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 08:05 AM ] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 08:08 AM So what's happening to the busts? Is MeiGray selling them? Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:10 AM I'm planning another night raid. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:21 AM ="Frayed Knot"]] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. I thought that quote was disturbing, myself. If there's no room for busts, then there can't be much room for a Mets HOF done right. It's Hot dogs over History. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM How about here: HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"? HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:29 AM Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":3fm5ql4w]Yes, the Giants and Dodgers are in California now, but Mel Ott, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw, Bill Terry, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Wilbert Robinson, Zach Wheat and all those other guys still belong to New York.[/quote:3fm5ql4w] One of the flaws in this otherwise valid point is that the NY Giant fans probably hated the B'klyn Dodgers -- even more than we might hate the MFY's, given that the old NY rivals played each other 18 times a season. Ironically, if not fittingly, I seem to be in the minority on this one, though. HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Edgy DC":3kwmr6o7]How about here: [/quote:3kwmr6o7] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:34 AM ="HahnSolo":3dt3qv7d]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3dt3qv7d] They probably don't want to "waste" the real estate on something that won't generate additional income. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:38 AM ="HahnSolo":2hnipag0]="Edgy DC":2hnipag0]How about here: [/quote:2hnipag0] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue.[/quote:2hnipag0] I like how Alyssa's target audience --- dyed hair, perm, tight jeans --- is walking by without turning her head, while dorkus from New Yorkus in his backward cap/ski-cap/yarmulke is wandering in to check out the insignia thongs. Hopefully, the boutique won't last the season. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 08:51 AM "WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THE BUSTS?!?!??" Are you effing kidding me, Jeff? Screw you! You built a whole goddam building and you can't find room to honor your own Hall of Fame busts? No wonder Wally Matthews hates this team. ="HahnSolo":3ngiw1aa]What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"?[/quote:3ngiw1aa] Exactly! God, I hate this shit. metirish Apr 16 2009 08:57 AM " We do have room for one bust " Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 09:09 AM This is a work in progress, and Jeff has shown himself to be a reactive manager. Why don't we give him something to react to? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 10:19 AM Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets. MFS62 Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ="G-Fafif":3129gw3s]Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets.[/quote:3129gw3s] As long as they were all a different height. Later Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ]Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? metsguyinmichigan Apr 16 2009 11:47 AM This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions. And I didn't like that it wasn't readily accessible to a lot of fans. And the writing on the display cases was ugly. I love the idea of a hall of fame, and think there absolutely needs to be one. Cleveland and Philly both have neat areas in centerfield with the kind of plaques that I imagine Jeff is talking about. Lots of people walk through the area, and each plaque tells why the person on it is important. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, [url:3o4t75mg]http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/ballpark/heritage_park.jsp[/url:3o4t75mg] then I'm OK with that. Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 11:56 AM Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 12:25 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1l6s2tnk]Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions.[/quote:1l6s2tnk] I suspect managerial indifference slowed it down, but benign neglect has perhaps been better than misguided engagement. My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:04 PM ="seawolf17":2pflv7ph]Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first.[/quote:2pflv7ph] Saw it on the YEECH pregame show and, yeah, it's a brilliant idea beautifully executed. They're even summoning family members and whoever they can find to rustle up balls for the departed MFYs. On the other hand, the Mets would appreciate it if you'd stop thinking about Brian Ostrosser while enjoying your world-class Citi Field experience. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:07 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":224d4oqf]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:224d4oqf] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:09 PM ="Edgy DC":1s2trfoy]My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field.[/quote:1s2trfoy] Since 2000, whenever they do a big event, like '06 reunion or All-Amazin' Team or Ralph Night, they move it back to the start time on the ticket. That way people are indeed in their seats. They didn't do it in '02 for Agee's induction and it was a little depressing. You might recall Seaver criticized Valentine mightily for not having his team in the dugout (they were having a meeting that saved their season, thus that 2002 pennant that flies high and proud over Citi Field). Seaver was correct. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:34 PM Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They are the only team for which a tribute to Jackie would be a perfect fit. Unfortunately, that team doesn't exist anymore. It sucks, but it's reality. Sometimes there are no good answers. The Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Mets are probably the best options left. Arguments can be given for each team, but for every argument, there is a valid argument against. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably say the Dodgers are more appropriate. But I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Which brings us to the rotunda. Does it make sense to have a Jackie Robinson tribute be the signature of the Mets new home stadium? And the answer, in my opinion, is no. Whether or not the Dodgers are a more appropriate team, a featuring a Brooklyn Dodger as the centerpiece of the new home of the New York Mets is, at best, awkward. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:37 PM ="HahnSolo":3e4tnjsm]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3e4tnjsm] Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 01:43 PM Would it make more sense for a statue of Connie Mack to be in Philadelphia or Oakland? Should Walter Johnson be honored in Washington, or in Minneapolis? My votes would go to Philadelphia and Washington. So I think it's more appropriate to honor Jackie Robinson in New York than in Los Angeles. But I think the big rotunda at the Mets ballpark is a bit much. Were it up to me, Citi Field would not look like Ebbets Field. It wouldn't be retro at all. And there would be a nice big memorial to Jackie Robinson in Brooklyn somewhere. Maybe somewhere near the anchorage of the Brooklyn Bridge, so that people could walk there from Manhattan. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2009 04:33 PM What should be noted as part of the rotunda display is that --- as good as he was at baseball, football, and track --- his best sport might have been underwear basketball. Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, that might have been my best sport also. Swan Swan H Apr 16 2009 01:52 PM Michael Jordan's Hanes ads are clearly a tribute to Jackie Robinson's underwear basketball career. Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 01:53 PM ="Centerfield"]Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. ... and he can not lie. ]Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, [underwear basketball] might have been my best sport also. TMI Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:04 PM Who farted? Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:06 PM ="G-Fafif":1e8206y9]="metsguyinmichigan":1e8206y9]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:1e8206y9] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood.[/quote:1e8206y9] I am a big fan of busts. HahnSolo Apr 17 2009 06:56 AM After my first trip to Citi and the rotunda, my feelings have somewhat changed. I was never a big fan of the entire rotunda being dedicated to Jackie. however, having seen it up close, it is done in a quite classy way, and it is completely un-intrusive. You are not clubbed over the head with Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. It's there, yes, and it is prominent, but you can just as easily avoid it. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:42 AM I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles. themetfairy Apr 17 2009 09:17 AM ="seawolf17":38irfm09]I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles.[/quote:38irfm09] But way less slimy than the MFY's version. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 11:46 AM Have you met him? Don't count out his sliminess. We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 04:53 PM ="seawolf17"]We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. A Geneseo guy? cooby Apr 17 2009 09:48 PM Funny, all of it. Kong76 Apr 17 2009 09:52 PM FK: OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? <<< I thought it was a typo too. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 10:10 PM It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel. MFS62 Apr 18 2009 06:56 AM ="G-Fafif":3jk8wpwh]It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel.[/quote:3jk8wpwh] Don't start getting all sweet on us when this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Later

="Edgy DC":1whlhro2]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1whlhro2] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do. And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger. Gwreck Apr 15 2009 12:11 PM TransMonk Apr 15 2009 12:15 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":1rehx0sb]C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. [/quote:1rehx0sb] Out of context, this makes me laugh out loud. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2009 12:16 PM ="Gwreck"] That's the image I'll dig out for the game tonight if this Chick Corea guy no hits us for 4 innings Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 12:18 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]="Edgy DC":2pzqyafl]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:2pzqyafl] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:2pzqyafl] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:2pzqyafl] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:2pzqyafl] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite? LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 15 2009 12:19 PM ="TransMonk":1zk7jiuj]="batmagadanleadoff":1zk7jiuj]C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. [/quote:1zk7jiuj] Out of context, this makes me laugh out loud.[/quote:1zk7jiuj] I'm glad I'm not the only one. (Apropos of nothing, I snarfed my soda.) And hell, batmags, if you like the rotunda, just think of it as the Just Plain Rotunda, and pretend the "42" is a Douglas Adams tribute. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 12:20 PM I apologize for my huge part of this shit. metirish Apr 15 2009 12:21 PM Isn't Chick Corea a singer, I hope he's off key tonight. metirish Apr 15 2009 12:22 PM I apologize for bringing it up , it was nothing more really than a smart ass comment. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 12:31 PM I like the Rotunda, but I'd like a lot more[/url:3q9n3phx]. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 01:16 PM Fresh from the Rotunda dedication, Davidoff reports the owner of the Mets plans a Mets HOF. ]Fred Wilpon said the the team is planning on establishing a Mets Hall of Fame, most likely in the centerfield concourse with the high-end food selections and the old Home Run Apple. Also, you'll be thrilled to know, Davidoff learned the Mets got the Red Sox' OK to blast Neil Diamond at the grateful throngs. ]The Mets went so far as to get a blessing from Red Sox ownership before renewing their usage of "Sweet Caroline" as the "eighth-inning song" at Citi Field; the Neil Diamond song has long been a Fenway Park staple. But the fans' massive boos told the whole story. The Mets need to find their own song. They considered Coldplay's "Viva la Vida," which they used during their pre-game introductions Monday night, but decided against it. Remember when the only thing we asked the Red Sox' permission for was when we could borrow their champagne? John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2009 01:23 PM Let's go with Chick Corea's "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" Listen to this guy play the pianny. Just gorgeous and then, he stretches it out. Benjamin Grimm Apr 15 2009 01:26 PM I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 01:32 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 15 2009 02:30 PM ="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1aroddf7] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:1aroddf7] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:1aroddf7] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:1aroddf7] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite?[/quote:1aroddf7] There's not one single dishonest bone in my UCLA reference. It's highly likely, and thus reasonable to assume, that if this Jackie Robinson Rotunda was in Chavez-Ravine, connected to Dodger Stadium -- where it belongs, I believe -- there'd be UCLA references in the Dodgers tribute. The UCLA reference is superfluous to my opinion, not only because it wouldn't change my view, as I already stated, but also, because I wasn't editorializing for the Dodgers to build their own JR Rotunda. Frankly, I could care less what the Dodgers do. I merely opined that the Mets shouldn't honor an opponent -- not that the Dodgers should honor their own. And on that basis, my opinion is just as valid with or without the Bruin nod. I suppose that this is my old-school sensibilies surfacing -- where a baseball player in any uniform other than a Met uniform, is the enemy, and that I'd plunk JR just as easy as I might plunk Tommie Agee in a meaningless Spring Training game if they were opponents and I thought that the situation called for a plunking. I fully realize that here, you might note that JR's contributions transcended the game itself; that there is a larger point to be made by honoring JR with an eponymous Rotunda at Citi, and that the daily battles between two baseball teams are nothing more than tiny points of paint in the grand masterpiece that was JR's life. And you'd be right. Just as right as Grimm was when he noted that JR belongs to NY baseball fans as much as he belongs to anybody else. There's no right answer here, other than that Wilpon owns the Mets and he can do as he wishes. And because there's no right answer here, this discussion won't resolve itself as neatly and as irrefutably as a mathematical proof. But my POV is just as valid as yours is. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 01:51 PM I never said it wasn't. Ashie62 Apr 15 2009 05:34 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":2zuig4gl]I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium.[/quote:2zuig4gl] It sure fells that way..Makes me pine for Shea all the more Kong76 Apr 15 2009 06:56 PM This list on a certain site needs some major work after tonight ... Larry Elliot Ron Taylor Chuck Taylor Hank Webb Ron Hodges Tom Hall Ron Hodges Roger McDowell Butch Huskey Mo Vaughn G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:22 AM Tim Smith, in the Snooze, praises the Rotunda, says in essence that no, you can't have both the Jackie salute and Mets history. You get the former, stop complaining about the latter, you small-minded Mets fans. Jeff Wilpon is Viva Las Vague herein. (How do you build a new ballpark and decide "no room for busts," and I hope he means Luis Castillo.) ]Mets and Citi Field do right by saying, 'and here's to you Mr. Robinson' The day after the Mets christened Citi Field their fans decried the lack of team history in the $850 million ballpark. It had a sterile corporate feel, they said. Where was the homage to World Series victories? Where were the tributes to past Met greats? All those complaints rang hollow Wednesday as the team dedicated the Jackie Robinson Rotunda on the day that Robinson broke Major League Baseball's color barrier 62 years ago. The rotunda is a replica of the one at Ebbets Field, where Robinson played for the Dodgers, and is four times as big. Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband. Walking into the Jackie Robinson Rotunda Wednesday afternoon was a near religious experience for Mrs. Robinson. "It's kind of a spiritual thing," she said. "It's like being at St. John's Cathedral in Rome. I was so moved. I don't think everybody will feel that way." Certainly not those short-sighted fans who want monuments to past Mets glory in place pronto. The Mets are to be commended for conceiving and constructing the Jackie Robinson Rotunda, which extols the nine virtues that Robinson lived by: Justice, teamwork, determination, persistence, courage, excellence, citizenship, commitment and integrity. In the modern game, as in much of modern life, those virtues seem outdated. Director Spike Lee, who attended the dedication ceremony, said Robinson's legacy remains as significant today as it did when he stepped onto Ebbets Field 62 years ago, enduring the crushing social pressure and still succeeding. "Jackie and Branch Rickey knew if they were not successful in this so-called race experiment that this would set African-Americans back 10-15 years no matter what field we're talking about," Lee said. "We're talking about in all fields - science, politics, not just sports." It is hard for modern-day players to even imagine what Robinson endured to play baseball. "I can't believe he went through that kind of stuff (racists taunts)," said Jose Reyes. "It's just crazy to me. But it just shows how strong he was in mind to go through it and still play." Reyes said he has not visited the rotunda yet, but he said he has always drawn inspiration from Robinson. "Just to see the way that he played the game, the fact that he never gave up and he was always working hard," Reyes said. "He showed that you can never hang your head, and that you have to be strong every day." Fred Wilpon, the Mets chairman and CEO, was 16 when he played a game at Ebbets Field, and those nine virtues that Robinson espoused were alive inside the clubhouse. The Mets are the closest touchstone to Jackie Robinson (the National League replacement in New York for the departed Dodgers and Giants), so Wilpon knew he wanted to honor Robinson when they decided to build a new ballpark, particularly if the new place would include elements of Ebbets Field. Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' COO, said Mets fans who desire a more grand tribute to former Mets greats will get their wish soon. "We have some banners that will go up. We have some plaques that will go up," Jeff Wilpon said. "We have some retired numbers. We don't have room to do busts like we did before, but we're going to do some Hall of Fame plaques. We have some other things that we're going to do." Fred Wilpon said the Jackie Robinson Rotunda doesn't trump anything that the Mets will do in the future to honor their own history, but he believes the rotunda is a significant symbol in its own right. He's absolutely correct. By displaying the virtues on the walls and floor of the rotunda, baseball fans who enter Citi Field will at least be reminded that Robinson lived by them, and by smashing Major League Baseball's color barrier, he forced the sport, and America, to live by them as well. Baseball isn't such a virtuous place right now. It is still trying to come to grips with the blight of steroids and the taint of street agents and scouts skimming the signing bonuses of some Dominican players. And for the first time since 1995, there was an increase (2%) in the number of African-American players on major league rosters this season, according to a report released yesterday by Richard Lapchick, director of the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports. "I feel encouraged. It's not a huge leap, but a step forward," said Rachel Robinson. "We have to feel encouraged, also inspired by the progress." The Mets have an African-American manager, Jerry Manuel, and just one African-American player, Gary Sheffield, who was starting his first game in right field Wednesday night and was looking for his 500th home run. The Mets don't yet have an homage to their history as grand and glorious as the Yankees in their new home. But they have done them one better by creating a permanent monument to the legacy of Jackie Robinson. "By doing this, the permanence of this, this is not a traveling exhibition at a museum, this is a welcoming mat that he should have had back in the day when he came into baseball," said Jeff Wilpon. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:25 AM Jeff seems very enthusiastic about this. I can't wait to see the results. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 16 2009 07:40 AM Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:44 AM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":tzgvm407]Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type.[/quote:tzgvm407] Oh I'm with you , I was being sarcastic....you know he has season tickets in the Pepsi Porch , it reminds him of Tiger Stadium..... Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 07:45 AM ="G-Fafif":9s02mgja]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:9s02mgja] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:53 AM ="Edgy DC":uaz5b2d8]="G-Fafif":uaz5b2d8]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:uaz5b2d8] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field?[/quote:uaz5b2d8] When did Ebbets Field move to Cincinnati, St. Louis and Philadelphia? Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 07:57 AM Well, if it could move to Queens... Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 08:05 AM ] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 08:08 AM So what's happening to the busts? Is MeiGray selling them? Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:10 AM I'm planning another night raid. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:21 AM ="Frayed Knot"]] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. I thought that quote was disturbing, myself. If there's no room for busts, then there can't be much room for a Mets HOF done right. It's Hot dogs over History. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM How about here: HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"? HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:29 AM Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":3fm5ql4w]Yes, the Giants and Dodgers are in California now, but Mel Ott, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw, Bill Terry, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Wilbert Robinson, Zach Wheat and all those other guys still belong to New York.[/quote:3fm5ql4w] One of the flaws in this otherwise valid point is that the NY Giant fans probably hated the B'klyn Dodgers -- even more than we might hate the MFY's, given that the old NY rivals played each other 18 times a season. Ironically, if not fittingly, I seem to be in the minority on this one, though. HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Edgy DC":3kwmr6o7]How about here: [/quote:3kwmr6o7] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:34 AM ="HahnSolo":3dt3qv7d]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3dt3qv7d] They probably don't want to "waste" the real estate on something that won't generate additional income. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:38 AM ="HahnSolo":2hnipag0]="Edgy DC":2hnipag0]How about here: [/quote:2hnipag0] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue.[/quote:2hnipag0] I like how Alyssa's target audience --- dyed hair, perm, tight jeans --- is walking by without turning her head, while dorkus from New Yorkus in his backward cap/ski-cap/yarmulke is wandering in to check out the insignia thongs. Hopefully, the boutique won't last the season. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 08:51 AM "WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THE BUSTS?!?!??" Are you effing kidding me, Jeff? Screw you! You built a whole goddam building and you can't find room to honor your own Hall of Fame busts? No wonder Wally Matthews hates this team. ="HahnSolo":3ngiw1aa]What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"?[/quote:3ngiw1aa] Exactly! God, I hate this shit. metirish Apr 16 2009 08:57 AM " We do have room for one bust " Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 09:09 AM This is a work in progress, and Jeff has shown himself to be a reactive manager. Why don't we give him something to react to? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 10:19 AM Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets. MFS62 Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ="G-Fafif":3129gw3s]Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets.[/quote:3129gw3s] As long as they were all a different height. Later Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ]Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? metsguyinmichigan Apr 16 2009 11:47 AM This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions. And I didn't like that it wasn't readily accessible to a lot of fans. And the writing on the display cases was ugly. I love the idea of a hall of fame, and think there absolutely needs to be one. Cleveland and Philly both have neat areas in centerfield with the kind of plaques that I imagine Jeff is talking about. Lots of people walk through the area, and each plaque tells why the person on it is important. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, [url:3o4t75mg]http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/ballpark/heritage_park.jsp[/url:3o4t75mg] then I'm OK with that. Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 11:56 AM Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 12:25 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1l6s2tnk]Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions.[/quote:1l6s2tnk] I suspect managerial indifference slowed it down, but benign neglect has perhaps been better than misguided engagement. My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:04 PM ="seawolf17":2pflv7ph]Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first.[/quote:2pflv7ph] Saw it on the YEECH pregame show and, yeah, it's a brilliant idea beautifully executed. They're even summoning family members and whoever they can find to rustle up balls for the departed MFYs. On the other hand, the Mets would appreciate it if you'd stop thinking about Brian Ostrosser while enjoying your world-class Citi Field experience. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:07 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":224d4oqf]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:224d4oqf] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:09 PM ="Edgy DC":1s2trfoy]My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field.[/quote:1s2trfoy] Since 2000, whenever they do a big event, like '06 reunion or All-Amazin' Team or Ralph Night, they move it back to the start time on the ticket. That way people are indeed in their seats. They didn't do it in '02 for Agee's induction and it was a little depressing. You might recall Seaver criticized Valentine mightily for not having his team in the dugout (they were having a meeting that saved their season, thus that 2002 pennant that flies high and proud over Citi Field). Seaver was correct. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:34 PM Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They are the only team for which a tribute to Jackie would be a perfect fit. Unfortunately, that team doesn't exist anymore. It sucks, but it's reality. Sometimes there are no good answers. The Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Mets are probably the best options left. Arguments can be given for each team, but for every argument, there is a valid argument against. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably say the Dodgers are more appropriate. But I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Which brings us to the rotunda. Does it make sense to have a Jackie Robinson tribute be the signature of the Mets new home stadium? And the answer, in my opinion, is no. Whether or not the Dodgers are a more appropriate team, a featuring a Brooklyn Dodger as the centerpiece of the new home of the New York Mets is, at best, awkward. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:37 PM ="HahnSolo":3e4tnjsm]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3e4tnjsm] Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 01:43 PM Would it make more sense for a statue of Connie Mack to be in Philadelphia or Oakland? Should Walter Johnson be honored in Washington, or in Minneapolis? My votes would go to Philadelphia and Washington. So I think it's more appropriate to honor Jackie Robinson in New York than in Los Angeles. But I think the big rotunda at the Mets ballpark is a bit much. Were it up to me, Citi Field would not look like Ebbets Field. It wouldn't be retro at all. And there would be a nice big memorial to Jackie Robinson in Brooklyn somewhere. Maybe somewhere near the anchorage of the Brooklyn Bridge, so that people could walk there from Manhattan. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2009 04:33 PM What should be noted as part of the rotunda display is that --- as good as he was at baseball, football, and track --- his best sport might have been underwear basketball. Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, that might have been my best sport also. Swan Swan H Apr 16 2009 01:52 PM Michael Jordan's Hanes ads are clearly a tribute to Jackie Robinson's underwear basketball career. Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 01:53 PM ="Centerfield"]Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. ... and he can not lie. ]Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, [underwear basketball] might have been my best sport also. TMI Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:04 PM Who farted? Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:06 PM ="G-Fafif":1e8206y9]="metsguyinmichigan":1e8206y9]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:1e8206y9] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood.[/quote:1e8206y9] I am a big fan of busts. HahnSolo Apr 17 2009 06:56 AM After my first trip to Citi and the rotunda, my feelings have somewhat changed. I was never a big fan of the entire rotunda being dedicated to Jackie. however, having seen it up close, it is done in a quite classy way, and it is completely un-intrusive. You are not clubbed over the head with Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. It's there, yes, and it is prominent, but you can just as easily avoid it. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:42 AM I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles. themetfairy Apr 17 2009 09:17 AM ="seawolf17":38irfm09]I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles.[/quote:38irfm09] But way less slimy than the MFY's version. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 11:46 AM Have you met him? Don't count out his sliminess. We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 04:53 PM ="seawolf17"]We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. A Geneseo guy? cooby Apr 17 2009 09:48 PM Funny, all of it. Kong76 Apr 17 2009 09:52 PM FK: OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? <<< I thought it was a typo too. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 10:10 PM It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel. MFS62 Apr 18 2009 06:56 AM ="G-Fafif":3jk8wpwh]It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel.[/quote:3jk8wpwh] Don't start getting all sweet on us when this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Later

="Edgy DC":3h0h7ot7]Yes, I've heard. It doesn't make the UCLA assertion any less of a red herring.[/quote:3h0h7ot7] Yes, my UCLA reference was just filler. But my opinion would stay the same even if Jackie never attended UCLA, or any other California college. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 11:57 AM Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 12:05 PM ="Edgy DC":1whlhro2]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1whlhro2] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do. And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger. Gwreck Apr 15 2009 12:11 PM TransMonk Apr 15 2009 12:15 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":1rehx0sb]C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. [/quote:1rehx0sb] Out of context, this makes me laugh out loud. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2009 12:16 PM ="Gwreck"] That's the image I'll dig out for the game tonight if this Chick Corea guy no hits us for 4 innings Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 12:18 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]="Edgy DC":2pzqyafl]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:2pzqyafl] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:2pzqyafl] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:2pzqyafl] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:2pzqyafl] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite? LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 15 2009 12:19 PM ="TransMonk":1zk7jiuj]="batmagadanleadoff":1zk7jiuj]C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. [/quote:1zk7jiuj] Out of context, this makes me laugh out loud.[/quote:1zk7jiuj] I'm glad I'm not the only one. (Apropos of nothing, I snarfed my soda.) And hell, batmags, if you like the rotunda, just think of it as the Just Plain Rotunda, and pretend the "42" is a Douglas Adams tribute. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 12:20 PM I apologize for my huge part of this shit. metirish Apr 15 2009 12:21 PM Isn't Chick Corea a singer, I hope he's off key tonight. metirish Apr 15 2009 12:22 PM I apologize for bringing it up , it was nothing more really than a smart ass comment. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 12:31 PM I like the Rotunda, but I'd like a lot more[/url:3q9n3phx]. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 01:16 PM Fresh from the Rotunda dedication, Davidoff reports the owner of the Mets plans a Mets HOF. ]Fred Wilpon said the the team is planning on establishing a Mets Hall of Fame, most likely in the centerfield concourse with the high-end food selections and the old Home Run Apple. Also, you'll be thrilled to know, Davidoff learned the Mets got the Red Sox' OK to blast Neil Diamond at the grateful throngs. ]The Mets went so far as to get a blessing from Red Sox ownership before renewing their usage of "Sweet Caroline" as the "eighth-inning song" at Citi Field; the Neil Diamond song has long been a Fenway Park staple. But the fans' massive boos told the whole story. The Mets need to find their own song. They considered Coldplay's "Viva la Vida," which they used during their pre-game introductions Monday night, but decided against it. Remember when the only thing we asked the Red Sox' permission for was when we could borrow their champagne? John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2009 01:23 PM Let's go with Chick Corea's "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" Listen to this guy play the pianny. Just gorgeous and then, he stretches it out. Benjamin Grimm Apr 15 2009 01:26 PM I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 01:32 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 15 2009 02:30 PM ="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1aroddf7] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:1aroddf7] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:1aroddf7] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:1aroddf7] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite?[/quote:1aroddf7] There's not one single dishonest bone in my UCLA reference. It's highly likely, and thus reasonable to assume, that if this Jackie Robinson Rotunda was in Chavez-Ravine, connected to Dodger Stadium -- where it belongs, I believe -- there'd be UCLA references in the Dodgers tribute. The UCLA reference is superfluous to my opinion, not only because it wouldn't change my view, as I already stated, but also, because I wasn't editorializing for the Dodgers to build their own JR Rotunda. Frankly, I could care less what the Dodgers do. I merely opined that the Mets shouldn't honor an opponent -- not that the Dodgers should honor their own. And on that basis, my opinion is just as valid with or without the Bruin nod. I suppose that this is my old-school sensibilies surfacing -- where a baseball player in any uniform other than a Met uniform, is the enemy, and that I'd plunk JR just as easy as I might plunk Tommie Agee in a meaningless Spring Training game if they were opponents and I thought that the situation called for a plunking. I fully realize that here, you might note that JR's contributions transcended the game itself; that there is a larger point to be made by honoring JR with an eponymous Rotunda at Citi, and that the daily battles between two baseball teams are nothing more than tiny points of paint in the grand masterpiece that was JR's life. And you'd be right. Just as right as Grimm was when he noted that JR belongs to NY baseball fans as much as he belongs to anybody else. There's no right answer here, other than that Wilpon owns the Mets and he can do as he wishes. And because there's no right answer here, this discussion won't resolve itself as neatly and as irrefutably as a mathematical proof. But my POV is just as valid as yours is. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 01:51 PM I never said it wasn't. Ashie62 Apr 15 2009 05:34 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":2zuig4gl]I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium.[/quote:2zuig4gl] It sure fells that way..Makes me pine for Shea all the more Kong76 Apr 15 2009 06:56 PM This list on a certain site needs some major work after tonight ... Larry Elliot Ron Taylor Chuck Taylor Hank Webb Ron Hodges Tom Hall Ron Hodges Roger McDowell Butch Huskey Mo Vaughn G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:22 AM Tim Smith, in the Snooze, praises the Rotunda, says in essence that no, you can't have both the Jackie salute and Mets history. You get the former, stop complaining about the latter, you small-minded Mets fans. Jeff Wilpon is Viva Las Vague herein. (How do you build a new ballpark and decide "no room for busts," and I hope he means Luis Castillo.) ]Mets and Citi Field do right by saying, 'and here's to you Mr. Robinson' The day after the Mets christened Citi Field their fans decried the lack of team history in the $850 million ballpark. It had a sterile corporate feel, they said. Where was the homage to World Series victories? Where were the tributes to past Met greats? All those complaints rang hollow Wednesday as the team dedicated the Jackie Robinson Rotunda on the day that Robinson broke Major League Baseball's color barrier 62 years ago. The rotunda is a replica of the one at Ebbets Field, where Robinson played for the Dodgers, and is four times as big. Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband. Walking into the Jackie Robinson Rotunda Wednesday afternoon was a near religious experience for Mrs. Robinson. "It's kind of a spiritual thing," she said. "It's like being at St. John's Cathedral in Rome. I was so moved. I don't think everybody will feel that way." Certainly not those short-sighted fans who want monuments to past Mets glory in place pronto. The Mets are to be commended for conceiving and constructing the Jackie Robinson Rotunda, which extols the nine virtues that Robinson lived by: Justice, teamwork, determination, persistence, courage, excellence, citizenship, commitment and integrity. In the modern game, as in much of modern life, those virtues seem outdated. Director Spike Lee, who attended the dedication ceremony, said Robinson's legacy remains as significant today as it did when he stepped onto Ebbets Field 62 years ago, enduring the crushing social pressure and still succeeding. "Jackie and Branch Rickey knew if they were not successful in this so-called race experiment that this would set African-Americans back 10-15 years no matter what field we're talking about," Lee said. "We're talking about in all fields - science, politics, not just sports." It is hard for modern-day players to even imagine what Robinson endured to play baseball. "I can't believe he went through that kind of stuff (racists taunts)," said Jose Reyes. "It's just crazy to me. But it just shows how strong he was in mind to go through it and still play." Reyes said he has not visited the rotunda yet, but he said he has always drawn inspiration from Robinson. "Just to see the way that he played the game, the fact that he never gave up and he was always working hard," Reyes said. "He showed that you can never hang your head, and that you have to be strong every day." Fred Wilpon, the Mets chairman and CEO, was 16 when he played a game at Ebbets Field, and those nine virtues that Robinson espoused were alive inside the clubhouse. The Mets are the closest touchstone to Jackie Robinson (the National League replacement in New York for the departed Dodgers and Giants), so Wilpon knew he wanted to honor Robinson when they decided to build a new ballpark, particularly if the new place would include elements of Ebbets Field. Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' COO, said Mets fans who desire a more grand tribute to former Mets greats will get their wish soon. "We have some banners that will go up. We have some plaques that will go up," Jeff Wilpon said. "We have some retired numbers. We don't have room to do busts like we did before, but we're going to do some Hall of Fame plaques. We have some other things that we're going to do." Fred Wilpon said the Jackie Robinson Rotunda doesn't trump anything that the Mets will do in the future to honor their own history, but he believes the rotunda is a significant symbol in its own right. He's absolutely correct. By displaying the virtues on the walls and floor of the rotunda, baseball fans who enter Citi Field will at least be reminded that Robinson lived by them, and by smashing Major League Baseball's color barrier, he forced the sport, and America, to live by them as well. Baseball isn't such a virtuous place right now. It is still trying to come to grips with the blight of steroids and the taint of street agents and scouts skimming the signing bonuses of some Dominican players. And for the first time since 1995, there was an increase (2%) in the number of African-American players on major league rosters this season, according to a report released yesterday by Richard Lapchick, director of the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports. "I feel encouraged. It's not a huge leap, but a step forward," said Rachel Robinson. "We have to feel encouraged, also inspired by the progress." The Mets have an African-American manager, Jerry Manuel, and just one African-American player, Gary Sheffield, who was starting his first game in right field Wednesday night and was looking for his 500th home run. The Mets don't yet have an homage to their history as grand and glorious as the Yankees in their new home. But they have done them one better by creating a permanent monument to the legacy of Jackie Robinson. "By doing this, the permanence of this, this is not a traveling exhibition at a museum, this is a welcoming mat that he should have had back in the day when he came into baseball," said Jeff Wilpon. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:25 AM Jeff seems very enthusiastic about this. I can't wait to see the results. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 16 2009 07:40 AM Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:44 AM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":tzgvm407]Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type.[/quote:tzgvm407] Oh I'm with you , I was being sarcastic....you know he has season tickets in the Pepsi Porch , it reminds him of Tiger Stadium..... Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 07:45 AM ="G-Fafif":9s02mgja]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:9s02mgja] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:53 AM ="Edgy DC":uaz5b2d8]="G-Fafif":uaz5b2d8]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:uaz5b2d8] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field?[/quote:uaz5b2d8] When did Ebbets Field move to Cincinnati, St. Louis and Philadelphia? Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 07:57 AM Well, if it could move to Queens... Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 08:05 AM ] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 08:08 AM So what's happening to the busts? Is MeiGray selling them? Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:10 AM I'm planning another night raid. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:21 AM ="Frayed Knot"]] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. I thought that quote was disturbing, myself. If there's no room for busts, then there can't be much room for a Mets HOF done right. It's Hot dogs over History. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM How about here: HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"? HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:29 AM Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":3fm5ql4w]Yes, the Giants and Dodgers are in California now, but Mel Ott, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw, Bill Terry, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Wilbert Robinson, Zach Wheat and all those other guys still belong to New York.[/quote:3fm5ql4w] One of the flaws in this otherwise valid point is that the NY Giant fans probably hated the B'klyn Dodgers -- even more than we might hate the MFY's, given that the old NY rivals played each other 18 times a season. Ironically, if not fittingly, I seem to be in the minority on this one, though. HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Edgy DC":3kwmr6o7]How about here: [/quote:3kwmr6o7] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:34 AM ="HahnSolo":3dt3qv7d]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3dt3qv7d] They probably don't want to "waste" the real estate on something that won't generate additional income. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:38 AM ="HahnSolo":2hnipag0]="Edgy DC":2hnipag0]How about here: [/quote:2hnipag0] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue.[/quote:2hnipag0] I like how Alyssa's target audience --- dyed hair, perm, tight jeans --- is walking by without turning her head, while dorkus from New Yorkus in his backward cap/ski-cap/yarmulke is wandering in to check out the insignia thongs. Hopefully, the boutique won't last the season. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 08:51 AM "WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THE BUSTS?!?!??" Are you effing kidding me, Jeff? Screw you! You built a whole goddam building and you can't find room to honor your own Hall of Fame busts? No wonder Wally Matthews hates this team. ="HahnSolo":3ngiw1aa]What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"?[/quote:3ngiw1aa] Exactly! God, I hate this shit. metirish Apr 16 2009 08:57 AM " We do have room for one bust " Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 09:09 AM This is a work in progress, and Jeff has shown himself to be a reactive manager. Why don't we give him something to react to? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 10:19 AM Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets. MFS62 Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ="G-Fafif":3129gw3s]Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets.[/quote:3129gw3s] As long as they were all a different height. Later Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ]Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? metsguyinmichigan Apr 16 2009 11:47 AM This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions. And I didn't like that it wasn't readily accessible to a lot of fans. And the writing on the display cases was ugly. I love the idea of a hall of fame, and think there absolutely needs to be one. Cleveland and Philly both have neat areas in centerfield with the kind of plaques that I imagine Jeff is talking about. Lots of people walk through the area, and each plaque tells why the person on it is important. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, [url:3o4t75mg]http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/ballpark/heritage_park.jsp[/url:3o4t75mg] then I'm OK with that. Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 11:56 AM Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 12:25 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1l6s2tnk]Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions.[/quote:1l6s2tnk] I suspect managerial indifference slowed it down, but benign neglect has perhaps been better than misguided engagement. My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:04 PM ="seawolf17":2pflv7ph]Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first.[/quote:2pflv7ph] Saw it on the YEECH pregame show and, yeah, it's a brilliant idea beautifully executed. They're even summoning family members and whoever they can find to rustle up balls for the departed MFYs. On the other hand, the Mets would appreciate it if you'd stop thinking about Brian Ostrosser while enjoying your world-class Citi Field experience. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:07 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":224d4oqf]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:224d4oqf] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:09 PM ="Edgy DC":1s2trfoy]My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field.[/quote:1s2trfoy] Since 2000, whenever they do a big event, like '06 reunion or All-Amazin' Team or Ralph Night, they move it back to the start time on the ticket. That way people are indeed in their seats. They didn't do it in '02 for Agee's induction and it was a little depressing. You might recall Seaver criticized Valentine mightily for not having his team in the dugout (they were having a meeting that saved their season, thus that 2002 pennant that flies high and proud over Citi Field). Seaver was correct. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:34 PM Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They are the only team for which a tribute to Jackie would be a perfect fit. Unfortunately, that team doesn't exist anymore. It sucks, but it's reality. Sometimes there are no good answers. The Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Mets are probably the best options left. Arguments can be given for each team, but for every argument, there is a valid argument against. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably say the Dodgers are more appropriate. But I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Which brings us to the rotunda. Does it make sense to have a Jackie Robinson tribute be the signature of the Mets new home stadium? And the answer, in my opinion, is no. Whether or not the Dodgers are a more appropriate team, a featuring a Brooklyn Dodger as the centerpiece of the new home of the New York Mets is, at best, awkward. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:37 PM ="HahnSolo":3e4tnjsm]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3e4tnjsm] Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 01:43 PM Would it make more sense for a statue of Connie Mack to be in Philadelphia or Oakland? Should Walter Johnson be honored in Washington, or in Minneapolis? My votes would go to Philadelphia and Washington. So I think it's more appropriate to honor Jackie Robinson in New York than in Los Angeles. But I think the big rotunda at the Mets ballpark is a bit much. Were it up to me, Citi Field would not look like Ebbets Field. It wouldn't be retro at all. And there would be a nice big memorial to Jackie Robinson in Brooklyn somewhere. Maybe somewhere near the anchorage of the Brooklyn Bridge, so that people could walk there from Manhattan. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2009 04:33 PM What should be noted as part of the rotunda display is that --- as good as he was at baseball, football, and track --- his best sport might have been underwear basketball. Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, that might have been my best sport also. Swan Swan H Apr 16 2009 01:52 PM Michael Jordan's Hanes ads are clearly a tribute to Jackie Robinson's underwear basketball career. Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 01:53 PM ="Centerfield"]Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. ... and he can not lie. ]Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, [underwear basketball] might have been my best sport also. TMI Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:04 PM Who farted? Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:06 PM ="G-Fafif":1e8206y9]="metsguyinmichigan":1e8206y9]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:1e8206y9] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood.[/quote:1e8206y9] I am a big fan of busts. HahnSolo Apr 17 2009 06:56 AM After my first trip to Citi and the rotunda, my feelings have somewhat changed. I was never a big fan of the entire rotunda being dedicated to Jackie. however, having seen it up close, it is done in a quite classy way, and it is completely un-intrusive. You are not clubbed over the head with Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. It's there, yes, and it is prominent, but you can just as easily avoid it. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:42 AM I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles. themetfairy Apr 17 2009 09:17 AM ="seawolf17":38irfm09]I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles.[/quote:38irfm09] But way less slimy than the MFY's version. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 11:46 AM Have you met him? Don't count out his sliminess. We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 04:53 PM ="seawolf17"]We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. A Geneseo guy? cooby Apr 17 2009 09:48 PM Funny, all of it. Kong76 Apr 17 2009 09:52 PM FK: OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? <<< I thought it was a typo too. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 10:10 PM It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel. MFS62 Apr 18 2009 06:56 AM ="G-Fafif":3jk8wpwh]It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel.[/quote:3jk8wpwh] Don't start getting all sweet on us when this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Later

="Edgy DC":g5xoh8zj]It's not worth much. He didn't integrate the NCAA. He integrated MLB. In New York. People are getting beyond silly about this.[/quote:g5xoh8zj] As a Dodger. (Not to go around in circles on this). Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 11:47 AM Yes, I've heard. It doesn't make the UCLA assertion any less of a red herring. Benjamin Grimm Apr 15 2009 11:51 AM Yes, the Giants and Dodgers are in California now, but Mel Ott, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw, Bill Terry, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Wilbert Robinson, Zach Wheat and all those other guys still belong to New York. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 11:55 AM ="Edgy DC":3h0h7ot7]Yes, I've heard. It doesn't make the UCLA assertion any less of a red herring.[/quote:3h0h7ot7] Yes, my UCLA reference was just filler. But my opinion would stay the same even if Jackie never attended UCLA, or any other California college. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 11:57 AM Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 12:05 PM ="Edgy DC":1whlhro2]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1whlhro2] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do. And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger. Gwreck Apr 15 2009 12:11 PM TransMonk Apr 15 2009 12:15 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":1rehx0sb]C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. [/quote:1rehx0sb] Out of context, this makes me laugh out loud. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2009 12:16 PM ="Gwreck"] That's the image I'll dig out for the game tonight if this Chick Corea guy no hits us for 4 innings Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 12:18 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]="Edgy DC":2pzqyafl]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:2pzqyafl] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:2pzqyafl] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:2pzqyafl] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":2pzqyafl]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:2pzqyafl] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite? LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 15 2009 12:19 PM ="TransMonk":1zk7jiuj]="batmagadanleadoff":1zk7jiuj]C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously. [/quote:1zk7jiuj] Out of context, this makes me laugh out loud.[/quote:1zk7jiuj] I'm glad I'm not the only one. (Apropos of nothing, I snarfed my soda.) And hell, batmags, if you like the rotunda, just think of it as the Just Plain Rotunda, and pretend the "42" is a Douglas Adams tribute. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 12:20 PM I apologize for my huge part of this shit. metirish Apr 15 2009 12:21 PM Isn't Chick Corea a singer, I hope he's off key tonight. metirish Apr 15 2009 12:22 PM I apologize for bringing it up , it was nothing more really than a smart ass comment. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 12:31 PM I like the Rotunda, but I'd like a lot more[/url:3q9n3phx]. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 01:16 PM Fresh from the Rotunda dedication, Davidoff reports the owner of the Mets plans a Mets HOF. ]Fred Wilpon said the the team is planning on establishing a Mets Hall of Fame, most likely in the centerfield concourse with the high-end food selections and the old Home Run Apple. Also, you'll be thrilled to know, Davidoff learned the Mets got the Red Sox' OK to blast Neil Diamond at the grateful throngs. ]The Mets went so far as to get a blessing from Red Sox ownership before renewing their usage of "Sweet Caroline" as the "eighth-inning song" at Citi Field; the Neil Diamond song has long been a Fenway Park staple. But the fans' massive boos told the whole story. The Mets need to find their own song. They considered Coldplay's "Viva la Vida," which they used during their pre-game introductions Monday night, but decided against it. Remember when the only thing we asked the Red Sox' permission for was when we could borrow their champagne? John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 15 2009 01:23 PM Let's go with Chick Corea's "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" Listen to this guy play the pianny. Just gorgeous and then, he stretches it out. Benjamin Grimm Apr 15 2009 01:26 PM I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 01:32 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 15 2009 02:30 PM ="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]="Edgy DC":1aroddf7]Then please don't insult people by playing cards you know are nonsense. Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest.[/quote:1aroddf7] Insult people? C'mon. Get serious. You're taking this too seriously.[/quote:1aroddf7] No, honesty isn't too much to ask. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]I don't have to like this Jackie Robinson Rotunda business just because you do.[/quote:1aroddf7] As I said, "Believe what you want, but please, at least, be honest." And it has nothing to do with what I like. Except perhaps that I'd like this forum not to be papered with nonsense, which you acknowledge as such, but nonetheless advances your agenda. I'm even the one who opened up the subject of Jackie Robinson Day, and the overkill of too many uniform tributes, so it's not like I don't get it. ="batmagadanleadoff":1aroddf7]And besides, although the UCLA reference might be superfluous to my POV, it might not be to someone else. At UCLA, Jackie represented himself with the same level of class and achievement that he would later exhibit as a Dodger.[/quote:1aroddf7] Give me a break. It may be bait to draw people away from any real issue, but it's nonetheless relevant if people bite?[/quote:1aroddf7] There's not one single dishonest bone in my UCLA reference. It's highly likely, and thus reasonable to assume, that if this Jackie Robinson Rotunda was in Chavez-Ravine, connected to Dodger Stadium -- where it belongs, I believe -- there'd be UCLA references in the Dodgers tribute. The UCLA reference is superfluous to my opinion, not only because it wouldn't change my view, as I already stated, but also, because I wasn't editorializing for the Dodgers to build their own JR Rotunda. Frankly, I could care less what the Dodgers do. I merely opined that the Mets shouldn't honor an opponent -- not that the Dodgers should honor their own. And on that basis, my opinion is just as valid with or without the Bruin nod. I suppose that this is my old-school sensibilies surfacing -- where a baseball player in any uniform other than a Met uniform, is the enemy, and that I'd plunk JR just as easy as I might plunk Tommie Agee in a meaningless Spring Training game if they were opponents and I thought that the situation called for a plunking. I fully realize that here, you might note that JR's contributions transcended the game itself; that there is a larger point to be made by honoring JR with an eponymous Rotunda at Citi, and that the daily battles between two baseball teams are nothing more than tiny points of paint in the grand masterpiece that was JR's life. And you'd be right. Just as right as Grimm was when he noted that JR belongs to NY baseball fans as much as he belongs to anybody else. There's no right answer here, other than that Wilpon owns the Mets and he can do as he wishes. And because there's no right answer here, this discussion won't resolve itself as neatly and as irrefutably as a mathematical proof. But my POV is just as valid as yours is. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 01:51 PM I never said it wasn't. Ashie62 Apr 15 2009 05:34 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":2zuig4gl]I think the Mets Hall of Fame should be located in Dodger Stadium.[/quote:2zuig4gl] It sure fells that way..Makes me pine for Shea all the more Kong76 Apr 15 2009 06:56 PM This list on a certain site needs some major work after tonight ... Larry Elliot Ron Taylor Chuck Taylor Hank Webb Ron Hodges Tom Hall Ron Hodges Roger McDowell Butch Huskey Mo Vaughn G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:22 AM Tim Smith, in the Snooze, praises the Rotunda, says in essence that no, you can't have both the Jackie salute and Mets history. You get the former, stop complaining about the latter, you small-minded Mets fans. Jeff Wilpon is Viva Las Vague herein. (How do you build a new ballpark and decide "no room for busts," and I hope he means Luis Castillo.) ]Mets and Citi Field do right by saying, 'and here's to you Mr. Robinson' The day after the Mets christened Citi Field their fans decried the lack of team history in the $850 million ballpark. It had a sterile corporate feel, they said. Where was the homage to World Series victories? Where were the tributes to past Met greats? All those complaints rang hollow Wednesday as the team dedicated the Jackie Robinson Rotunda on the day that Robinson broke Major League Baseball's color barrier 62 years ago. The rotunda is a replica of the one at Ebbets Field, where Robinson played for the Dodgers, and is four times as big. Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband. Walking into the Jackie Robinson Rotunda Wednesday afternoon was a near religious experience for Mrs. Robinson. "It's kind of a spiritual thing," she said. "It's like being at St. John's Cathedral in Rome. I was so moved. I don't think everybody will feel that way." Certainly not those short-sighted fans who want monuments to past Mets glory in place pronto. The Mets are to be commended for conceiving and constructing the Jackie Robinson Rotunda, which extols the nine virtues that Robinson lived by: Justice, teamwork, determination, persistence, courage, excellence, citizenship, commitment and integrity. In the modern game, as in much of modern life, those virtues seem outdated. Director Spike Lee, who attended the dedication ceremony, said Robinson's legacy remains as significant today as it did when he stepped onto Ebbets Field 62 years ago, enduring the crushing social pressure and still succeeding. "Jackie and Branch Rickey knew if they were not successful in this so-called race experiment that this would set African-Americans back 10-15 years no matter what field we're talking about," Lee said. "We're talking about in all fields - science, politics, not just sports." It is hard for modern-day players to even imagine what Robinson endured to play baseball. "I can't believe he went through that kind of stuff (racists taunts)," said Jose Reyes. "It's just crazy to me. But it just shows how strong he was in mind to go through it and still play." Reyes said he has not visited the rotunda yet, but he said he has always drawn inspiration from Robinson. "Just to see the way that he played the game, the fact that he never gave up and he was always working hard," Reyes said. "He showed that you can never hang your head, and that you have to be strong every day." Fred Wilpon, the Mets chairman and CEO, was 16 when he played a game at Ebbets Field, and those nine virtues that Robinson espoused were alive inside the clubhouse. The Mets are the closest touchstone to Jackie Robinson (the National League replacement in New York for the departed Dodgers and Giants), so Wilpon knew he wanted to honor Robinson when they decided to build a new ballpark, particularly if the new place would include elements of Ebbets Field. Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' COO, said Mets fans who desire a more grand tribute to former Mets greats will get their wish soon. "We have some banners that will go up. We have some plaques that will go up," Jeff Wilpon said. "We have some retired numbers. We don't have room to do busts like we did before, but we're going to do some Hall of Fame plaques. We have some other things that we're going to do." Fred Wilpon said the Jackie Robinson Rotunda doesn't trump anything that the Mets will do in the future to honor their own history, but he believes the rotunda is a significant symbol in its own right. He's absolutely correct. By displaying the virtues on the walls and floor of the rotunda, baseball fans who enter Citi Field will at least be reminded that Robinson lived by them, and by smashing Major League Baseball's color barrier, he forced the sport, and America, to live by them as well. Baseball isn't such a virtuous place right now. It is still trying to come to grips with the blight of steroids and the taint of street agents and scouts skimming the signing bonuses of some Dominican players. And for the first time since 1995, there was an increase (2%) in the number of African-American players on major league rosters this season, according to a report released yesterday by Richard Lapchick, director of the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports. "I feel encouraged. It's not a huge leap, but a step forward," said Rachel Robinson. "We have to feel encouraged, also inspired by the progress." The Mets have an African-American manager, Jerry Manuel, and just one African-American player, Gary Sheffield, who was starting his first game in right field Wednesday night and was looking for his 500th home run. The Mets don't yet have an homage to their history as grand and glorious as the Yankees in their new home. But they have done them one better by creating a permanent monument to the legacy of Jackie Robinson. "By doing this, the permanence of this, this is not a traveling exhibition at a museum, this is a welcoming mat that he should have had back in the day when he came into baseball," said Jeff Wilpon. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:25 AM Jeff seems very enthusiastic about this. I can't wait to see the results. John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 16 2009 07:40 AM Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type. metirish Apr 16 2009 07:44 AM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":tzgvm407]Jeff is a complete tool. I can;t be the only one who gets that impression. I sorta see him as a Vince McMahon type.[/quote:tzgvm407] Oh I'm with you , I was being sarcastic....you know he has season tickets in the Pepsi Porch , it reminds him of Tiger Stadium..... Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 07:45 AM ="G-Fafif":9s02mgja]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:9s02mgja] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 07:53 AM ="Edgy DC":uaz5b2d8]="G-Fafif":uaz5b2d8]Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, said she didn't spend a lot of time at the Ebbets Field rotunda. It wasn't the time or place where they would hold a meet-and-greet for the Robinsons. She would go right to her seat, where she heard the worst the fans could verbally hurl at her husband.[/quote:uaz5b2d8] Was Robinson regularly abused with "the worst" at Ebbets field?[/quote:uaz5b2d8] When did Ebbets Field move to Cincinnati, St. Louis and Philadelphia? Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 07:57 AM Well, if it could move to Queens... Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 08:05 AM ] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 08:08 AM So what's happening to the busts? Is MeiGray selling them? Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:10 AM I'm planning another night raid. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:21 AM ="Frayed Knot"]] ... we don't have room to do busts like we did before Because lord knows how much room those things take up. I thought that quote was disturbing, myself. If there's no room for busts, then there can't be much room for a Mets HOF done right. It's Hot dogs over History. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM How about here: HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:27 AM What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"? HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:29 AM Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Benjamin Grimm":3fm5ql4w]Yes, the Giants and Dodgers are in California now, but Mel Ott, Christy Mathewson, John McGraw, Bill Terry, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Wilbert Robinson, Zach Wheat and all those other guys still belong to New York.[/quote:3fm5ql4w] One of the flaws in this otherwise valid point is that the NY Giant fans probably hated the B'klyn Dodgers -- even more than we might hate the MFY's, given that the old NY rivals played each other 18 times a season. Ironically, if not fittingly, I seem to be in the minority on this one, though. HahnSolo Apr 16 2009 08:31 AM ="Edgy DC":3kwmr6o7]How about here: [/quote:3kwmr6o7] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue. batmagadanleadoff Apr 16 2009 08:34 AM ="HahnSolo":3dt3qv7d]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3dt3qv7d] They probably don't want to "waste" the real estate on something that won't generate additional income. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:38 AM ="HahnSolo":2hnipag0]="Edgy DC":2hnipag0]How about here: [/quote:2hnipag0] Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? Well, at least the cord is blue.[/quote:2hnipag0] I like how Alyssa's target audience --- dyed hair, perm, tight jeans --- is walking by without turning her head, while dorkus from New Yorkus in his backward cap/ski-cap/yarmulke is wandering in to check out the insignia thongs. Hopefully, the boutique won't last the season. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 08:51 AM "WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THE BUSTS?!?!??" Are you effing kidding me, Jeff? Screw you! You built a whole goddam building and you can't find room to honor your own Hall of Fame busts? No wonder Wally Matthews hates this team. ="HahnSolo":3ngiw1aa]What makes being a Met fan who wants honors, monuments, and tributes to his team in their stadium "short-sighted"?[/quote:3ngiw1aa] Exactly! God, I hate this shit. metirish Apr 16 2009 08:57 AM " We do have room for one bust " Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 09:09 AM This is a work in progress, and Jeff has shown himself to be a reactive manager. Why don't we give him something to react to? G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 10:19 AM Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets. MFS62 Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ="G-Fafif":3129gw3s]Sometimes I'm surprised they had room for the actual Mets.[/quote:3129gw3s] As long as they were all a different height. Later Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 10:39 AM ]Are the throngs so large at Touch that they need the blue rope to keep people in line? OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? metsguyinmichigan Apr 16 2009 11:47 AM This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions. And I didn't like that it wasn't readily accessible to a lot of fans. And the writing on the display cases was ugly. I love the idea of a hall of fame, and think there absolutely needs to be one. Cleveland and Philly both have neat areas in centerfield with the kind of plaques that I imagine Jeff is talking about. Lots of people walk through the area, and each plaque tells why the person on it is important. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, [url:3o4t75mg]http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/ballpark/heritage_park.jsp[/url:3o4t75mg] then I'm OK with that. Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well. seawolf17 Apr 16 2009 11:56 AM Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 12:25 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":1l6s2tnk]Didn't like the style. And I wonder if creating a bust like that was expensive and difficult, and slowed down the number of inductions.[/quote:1l6s2tnk] I suspect managerial indifference slowed it down, but benign neglect has perhaps been better than misguided engagement. My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:04 PM ="seawolf17":2pflv7ph]Word on the street is that YSIII has a wall of autographed baseballs from as many living MFYs as they could find. I think that's a phenomenal idea, and I wish the Mets had thought of it first.[/quote:2pflv7ph] Saw it on the YEECH pregame show and, yeah, it's a brilliant idea beautifully executed. They're even summoning family members and whoever they can find to rustle up balls for the departed MFYs. On the other hand, the Mets would appreciate it if you'd stop thinking about Brian Ostrosser while enjoying your world-class Citi Field experience. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:07 PM ="metsguyinmichigan":224d4oqf]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:224d4oqf] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood. G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 01:09 PM ="Edgy DC":1s2trfoy]My main HoF problem was that, in the post-doubleheader era, ceremonies have occurred before game time with the seats scarcely populated. I distinctly remembered being embarassed by the paucity of audience for Jerry Koosman's induction, which may have been Rube Walker's last time on the field.[/quote:1s2trfoy] Since 2000, whenever they do a big event, like '06 reunion or All-Amazin' Team or Ralph Night, they move it back to the start time on the ticket. That way people are indeed in their seats. They didn't do it in '02 for Agee's induction and it was a little depressing. You might recall Seaver criticized Valentine mightily for not having his team in the dugout (they were having a meeting that saved their season, thus that 2002 pennant that flies high and proud over Citi Field). Seaver was correct. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:34 PM Jackie Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They are the only team for which a tribute to Jackie would be a perfect fit. Unfortunately, that team doesn't exist anymore. It sucks, but it's reality. Sometimes there are no good answers. The Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Mets are probably the best options left. Arguments can be given for each team, but for every argument, there is a valid argument against. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably say the Dodgers are more appropriate. But I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Which brings us to the rotunda. Does it make sense to have a Jackie Robinson tribute be the signature of the Mets new home stadium? And the answer, in my opinion, is no. Whether or not the Dodgers are a more appropriate team, a featuring a Brooklyn Dodger as the centerpiece of the new home of the New York Mets is, at best, awkward. Centerfield Apr 16 2009 01:37 PM ="HahnSolo":3e4tnjsm]Those busts at Shea fit into a display that was smaller than your average walk-in closet.[/quote:3e4tnjsm] Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. Benjamin Grimm Apr 16 2009 01:43 PM Would it make more sense for a statue of Connie Mack to be in Philadelphia or Oakland? Should Walter Johnson be honored in Washington, or in Minneapolis? My votes would go to Philadelphia and Washington. So I think it's more appropriate to honor Jackie Robinson in New York than in Los Angeles. But I think the big rotunda at the Mets ballpark is a bit much. Were it up to me, Citi Field would not look like Ebbets Field. It wouldn't be retro at all. And there would be a nice big memorial to Jackie Robinson in Brooklyn somewhere. Maybe somewhere near the anchorage of the Brooklyn Bridge, so that people could walk there from Manhattan. Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2009 04:33 PM What should be noted as part of the rotunda display is that --- as good as he was at baseball, football, and track --- his best sport might have been underwear basketball. Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, that might have been my best sport also. Swan Swan H Apr 16 2009 01:52 PM Michael Jordan's Hanes ads are clearly a tribute to Jackie Robinson's underwear basketball career. Frayed Knot Apr 16 2009 01:53 PM ="Centerfield"]Maybe that's the problem. I like bigger busts. ... and he can not lie. ]Thinking back to my days in Joe Ellner's basement, [underwear basketball] might have been my best sport also. TMI Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:04 PM Who farted? Fman99 Apr 16 2009 04:06 PM ="G-Fafif":1e8206y9]="metsguyinmichigan":1e8206y9]This might get me in a little trouble, and maybe I'm the only one. But to be totally honest, I didn't like the busts. The Mets have a chance here to start from scratch, and if they come up with something like Cleveland's Heritage Park, then I'm OK with that. [...] Ideally, they've have something like the Reds have in Cincy, which is just amazing. But I don't think any other team has done that well.[/quote:1e8206y9] I never thought the busts were optimal, but if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em. I love that, as you pointed out, Cleon the elder is portrayed whereas all the other Famers are in their prime. I like trying to figure out why; I don't necessarily need to know. Add the Baltimore museum, opened a few years ago next to Camden Yards, as something to be studied by the Mets and attended by anybody in the neighborhood.[/quote:1e8206y9] I am a big fan of busts. HahnSolo Apr 17 2009 06:56 AM After my first trip to Citi and the rotunda, my feelings have somewhat changed. I was never a big fan of the entire rotunda being dedicated to Jackie. however, having seen it up close, it is done in a quite classy way, and it is completely un-intrusive. You are not clubbed over the head with Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. It's there, yes, and it is prominent, but you can just as easily avoid it. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:42 AM I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles. themetfairy Apr 17 2009 09:17 AM ="seawolf17":38irfm09]I love fman. He's added a dynamic to the Pool that can't be quantified. He's our own Cap'n Intangibles.[/quote:38irfm09] But way less slimy than the MFY's version. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 11:46 AM Have you met him? Don't count out his sliminess. We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 04:53 PM ="seawolf17"]We did a lot of weird things in the basement of the Blake B Building. A Geneseo guy? cooby Apr 17 2009 09:48 PM Funny, all of it. Kong76 Apr 17 2009 09:52 PM FK: OK who (besides me) read that as thongs so large that they need the blue rope ... ? <<< I thought it was a typo too. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 10:10 PM It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel. MFS62 Apr 18 2009 06:56 AM ="G-Fafif":3jk8wpwh]It never stops amusing me that Fman proclaims his love of big busts and his avatar is of that little angel.[/quote:3jk8wpwh] Don't start getting all sweet on us when this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Later

I do. It makes more sense in LA than having it in the stadium of a team for which Jackie never played for. The LA Dodgers inherited the B'klyn Dodger records. Wee Willie is the all-time Dodger leader in Batting Average. Gary Sheffield had to pass Jackie on his way to becoming the all-time Dodger leader in OBP. FWIW, Jackie attended UCLA. This rotunda is a pet peeve of mine. I like the rotunda, but I believe that the Mets should not be honoring an opponent's athlete in this fashion.

At this point, does a Wally Matthews column merit thoughtful analytical review? This is a farce.

I think that everyone should play the game in rubber Jackie Robinson Halloween masks.

="Edgy DC":27rpkhft]No doubt. My only position is that the real enemy is the exclusive system MLB has set up that gives these two teams a shared monopoly to a tri-state area that has far more people than these two serve.[/quote:27rpkhft] Well ... that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Trust me. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 10:33 AM This reminds me of a column, I don't remember whose, written after Scott Kazmir made his MLB debut in Seattle. The key phrase was something about the Mets blew it, he'd be making his debut at Shea in front of 50,000 if they hadn't. And I was thinking, late in the 2004 season, there's no way Scott Kazmir or anyone short of the Pope draws 50,000 to Shea right now. Not to be statistically literal here, but the idea that if the Mets didn't trade Scott Kazmir his September recall to a lousy team would have generated mass waves of interest (as opposed to an uptick among the curious) was ludicrous. Kazmir became a cause after he was traded. Before, he was a prospect with a moderately high profile among the cognoscenti and no great recognition to the public at large, the kind of thing you'd need to attract the mythic 50,000 to a ballpark solely based on name. A little tangent there, but Matthews paints this "it should be like THIS!" picture knowing damn well it will never be the exact ideal he's decided it will be because, well, it won't. Which is fine except somebody pays him to write that crap. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 10:34 AM No doubt, as well. And probably beyond Wally. SteveJRogers Apr 15 2009 11:01 AM ="G-Fafif":6tnp5x57]The "faithful" did stay to the bitter end at Shea, but there were plenty who were faithless on a given night, skedaddling by the seventh and staying away in droves at the threat of rain. Not saying they didn't have good reasons and responsibilities, but let's not kid ourselves. Spent many an eighth and ninth inning there the last few years in relative solitude.[/quote:6tnp5x57] Excellent point Greg. Not that it excuses that kind of behavior, but it isn't like this is some brand new concept that just started with the new stadium. Hell, it says more about the type of crowd that GOES to opening day than anything to do with the stadiums themselves. I don't have it in front of me, but what did you say about the comparision between the opening day crowd and the closing day crowd? Opening Day is more for those looking to go to an "event" while the closing day is more for the baseball diehards. SteveJRogers Apr 15 2009 11:08 AM ="G-Fafif"]This reminds me of a column, I don't remember whose, written after Scott Kazmir made his MLB debut in Seattle. The key phrase was something about the Mets blew it, he'd be making his debut at Shea in front of 50,000 if they hadn't. And I was thinking, late in the 2004 season, there's no way Scott Kazmir or anyone short of the Pope draws 50,000 to Shea right now. Not to be statistically literal here, but the idea that if the Mets didn't trade Scott Kazmir his September recall to a lousy team would have generated mass waves of interest (as opposed to an uptick among the curious) was ludicrous. Kazmir became a cause after he was traded. Before, he was a prospect with a moderately high profile among the cognoscenti and no great recognition to the public at large, the kind of thing you'd need to attract the mythic 50,000 to a ballpark solely based on name. Also keep in mind, and this is very telling about Wally, the day the trade was announced, he was in full favor of the trade. Soley because he "knew" who Victor Zambrano was (and only because he was a pitcher on a big league roster, whom I think had some success against the MFYs) and "didn't" know a damn thing about Scott Kazmir. His radio partner at the time, Tom Keegan, thought that the Mets should have drafted Jered Weaver in the draft for the same reason. I sent him a spreadsheet chart of the last highly drafted Met's first season's home starts, Paul Wilson, where it showed no real difference in his starts and the rest of the season's attendance figures. Hell, even Darryl Strawberry in 1983 didn't have quite the impact on attendance that one would have thought, if anything Tom Seaver had a bigger impact in 1983. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 11:26 AM At this point, does a Wally Matthews column merit thoughtful analytical review? This is a farce. metirish Apr 15 2009 11:28 AM I thought Wally might be gone when James Dolan bought Newsday but Wally is exactly the kind of moron that Dolan would like. Farmer Ted Apr 15 2009 01:23 PM The guy is so full of optimism it's contagious. Wally Matthews, dog kicker. Ashie62 Apr 15 2009 05:35 PM It ain't Shea.. Kong76 Apr 15 2009 06:48 PM SJR: Hell, it says more about the type of crowd that GOES to opening day than anything to do with the stadiums themselves <<< This was the first opening day I've missed since like 1994 ... what kind of fan was I all those years and what type of crowd did I fall in with? And not to throw it in your face, but I do like to join in on Stevierazzin', you told me that going to opening day with tickets at your disposal was up to a coin flip and I'm guessing you lost ... or did you not want to hang with that type of crowd? I'd say we're both in the unlucky crowd if ya gotta put a type on it. SteveJRogers Apr 15 2009 07:19 PM ="Kong76"]SJR: Hell, it says more about the type of crowd that GOES to opening day than anything to do with the stadiums themselves <<< This was the first opening day I've missed since like 1994 ... what kind of fan was I all those years and what type of crowd did I fall in with? And not to throw it in your face, but I do like to join in on Stevierazzin', you told me that going to opening day with tickets at your disposal was up to a coin flip and I'm guessing you lost ... or did you not want to hang with that type of crowd? I'd say we're both in the unlucky crowd if ya gotta put a type on it. Kase, I was there Monday night, but you darn know that I wasn't talking about me and you, and that I meant the non fan or causal fan. The fan that wouldn't know your handle is a reference to Dave Kingman. The fan that wouldn't know Steve Rogers the ex-Expo from the secret identity of Captain America. Okay, those last references are way too dated, but the point still stands even if we were talking Ryan Howard or Roy Halladay. The fan that couldn't rattle off the names of 5 well known Mets through the years, or worse throw up someone who never played for the Mets (curiously, at lunch today a MFY fan was giving me a hard time about ex-Mets who played for the Yankees and listed Rusty Staub. Yeah, HUH?) The fan who is just there because its an event. It is a place to be seen. Sure there are circumstances where you HAVE to check out early for whatever reason on a weeknight (something Wally failed to mention FWIW), but more often than not, I'm sure, it is that type of "wanna be seen" fan that would leave Opening Day (or night) early. Kong76 Apr 15 2009 07:30 PM Steve with the surprise left. I thought I remembered you were posting in the IGT on Monday but I ain't gonna look. Glad you got there. Rockin' Doc Apr 15 2009 08:29 PM Wally Matthews strikes me as a self absorbed, unenlightened, Yankee shill. The more of his work I subject myself to, the more I end up regretting having done so. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 08:51 PM After two games, it's a crypt. Of course, at YSIII, that's a good thing. Frayed Knot Apr 15 2009 09:04 PM ="Rockin' Doc":15fno8yn]Wally Matthews strikes me as a self absorbed, unenlightened, Yankee shill. The more of his work I subject myself to, the more I end up regretting having done so.[/quote:15fno8yn] Not a Yanqui shill, merely a self-appointed curmudgeon. And while curmudgeon-ing certainly has a long and useful history in newspapers, as time goes on his version just seems more gimmicky and contrarian than anything else. More schtick, iow, than towards any useful purpose. Kong76 Apr 15 2009 09:11 PM He's a jilted Mets' fan. One of those Sell The Team NOW!!! guys from back in the day. (that's my opinion, I have no evidence, but I'm right) G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 05:14 AM ="SteveJRogers"]or worse throw up someone who never played for the Mets (curiously, at lunch today Whatever the original point of this message, the idea of throwing up someone who never played for the Mets, at lunch, would have to be worse. Particularly with Jerry Coleman in town and Rich Folkers having played for the Mets. metsmarathon Apr 16 2009 08:05 AM lets see... which one looks more like a mausoleum...? Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:16 AM The first step is admitting you're a tomb. Rockin' Doc Apr 16 2009 06:00 PM The Indians bury the Yankees under an avalanche of runs in the opening game of YSIII. So Wally, which NY ballpark is a tomb now? Elster88 Apr 16 2009 07:10 PM Seriously though, the house that roids built does look like a prison in that picture. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:43 AM ="Rockin' Doc":7cmgze6l]The Indians bury the Yankees under an avalanche of runs in the opening game of YSIII. So Wally, which NY ballpark is a tomb now?[/quote:7cmgze6l] No kidding. Where's his story about how the place cleared out in the seventh inning yesterday? Ass. Edgy DC Apr 17 2009 08:55 AM How about a "Yesterday sucked, but that's largely because the Yankees have set impossibly high standards" story? Steinbrenner created a monster -- and a ballpark Wallace Matthews 11:27 PM EDT, April 16, 2009 Thanks a lot, Boss. Of all George Steinbrenner's accomplishments of the past 36 years, this is probably the most remarkable. Despite his reputation as an impossible-to-please taskmaster, he has succeeded in transferring the enormous pressure of winning from his players to his sons and his son-in-law, who now inherit the unenviable chore of keeping it alive. And they must do it not just every season, but every day. The seeds of this were planted in 1975, with the signing of Catfish Hunter, his first major free agent, and a year later with Reggie Jackson. Now, with the yearly payroll having ballooned to more than $200 million dollars, the Boss' garden is overgrown. The current Yankees roster is populated with the latest version of Reggie and Catfish, play-for-high-pay guys whose abundance on this team made such a ballpark not just possible, but necessary. It is the Boss' very own Catch-22: You simply can't charge the kind of prices the Yankees do without fielding a high-end roster, and you can't afford a high-end roster unless you charge the kind of prices the Yankees do. And then, they have to win. Yesterday's 10-2 loss to the Cleveland Indians on Opening Day of the third, and by far most opulent, incarnation of Yankee Stadium did more than merely ruin what had begun as a gala occasion. It also raised the specter of something much uglier, and more unthinkable: What if the Yankees revert to the team they were before Steinbrenner, a brash, unknown shipbuilder from Cleveland, stole them out from under the noses of Mike Burke and CBS in 1973 for the now puny sum of $8.7 million? The year before Steinbrenner took over, the Yankees went 79-76 and drew 966,328 people. Now, they are expected to win more than 90 games and draw four million. In fact, they need to, just to remain profitable. If not, empty seats and empty coffers are sure to follow. The seventh inning of yesterday's game, in which the Indians scored nine runs, including a grand slam by Grady Sizemore, gave a glimpse of that very prospect. To that point, what had been a pitchers' duel turned into a total skulldragging. And what had been a large, festive Opening Day crowd turned into an angry mob as disgusted fans headed for the exits. The good news to report is that the wide concourses and many exits make for a smooth and swift exodus, and that the big ballpark is every bit as gorgeous empty as it is full. But that is where the happy talk ends. Simply put, the Yankees, and to a lesser extent, the Mets, can't afford to have too many more days like the ones they gave their fans at their openers this year. This year, the Yankees have spent a league-high $200 million on players and $1.3 billion on the Stadium, the Mets a second-highest $149 million on the roster and $850 million on the crib. (Throw in the $500 million the Wilpons reportedly lost to Bernie Madoff and their number comes pretty close to the Yankees.) That is why, while watching the game yesterday, I tried without success to come up with a sobriquet that would effectively capture this ballpark the way "The House That Ruth Built" defined the old one. I toyed with The House That Jorge Built when Posada, like the Babe 86 years before, hit the first Yankees home run in the new park, but I didn't like the sound of it. If the fill-in third baseman had emerged a hero, I would've gone with The House of Ransom, to symbolize when Steinbrenner held the city hostage in the '90s with his baseless threat to move across the river to Jersey. Had the real third baseman been around, I might have christened the new park The House That Juice Built, but unfortunately, the return of Alex Rodriguez is still several weeks away. And when the ticket prices were originally announced, I had already used my personal favorite, The House That Ruthless Built. In truth, there's only one appropriate name for this ballpark -- The House That George Built. He created it and nurtured it. Now, he leaves it to others to figure a way to keep it filled. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 02:53 PM I thought the son-in-law was bounced from management once GSS's daughter filed for divorce??? metsguyinmichigan Apr 17 2009 03:00 PM "skulldragging" What the hell is that? Frayed Knot Apr 17 2009 06:19 PM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Apr 18 2009 08:31 AM ="PiggiesTomatoes":1d5bb52o]I thought the son-in-law was bounced from management once GSS's daughter filed for divorce???[/quote:1d5bb52o] This is son-in-law #3. For years while the brothers were uninterested in having anything to do with the team, older sister's hubby (Joe Molloy) was the guy slated to run things ... then she divorced him. Then the other sister's spouse was anointed as heir-apparent (Steve Swindal) ... then they went splitsville right after he got caught DWI on Valentine's Day at about 4AM). So now this new guy in the mix (Lopez) is first daughter's second husband. Hope you got all that straight cuz there'll be a quiz later. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 06:22 PM I hear the Yankees suck and Matthews is a tool. OlerudOwned Apr 17 2009 06:53 PM http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mr_met_having_trouble_sleeping_in seawolf17 Apr 21 2009 11:07 AM Look! Wally's picking on the Yankees now! http://www.topix.net/forum/source/newsday/T6ABCQABNDESHS3O8 Well, maybe not. He's picking on Jason Giambi, blaming him exclusively for the MFY's failure to win a WS. Never mind the 209 home runs he hit, or the .900 postseason OPS, or the fact that the REAL thing that all those 2001-2008 seasons have in common are Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, and Mike Mussina, all of whom escape Wally's clutches. (Ignore Jeet's .800 OPS in the postseason since 2001, or Mussina's 5-7 postseason record as a Yankee. It's all Giambi's fault.) Dickhead. Vic Sage Apr 21 2009 11:44 AM ]In truth, there's only one appropriate name for this ballpark -- The House That George Built. In truth, when a German industrialist erects an architectural tribute to the greatness of his folk and the glory of its past, there's only one appropriate name for it -- Nuremberg. G-Fafif Apr 21 2009 12:03 PM I'm a little confused as to why Wally didn't use the occasion of Giambi's visit to blame the Mets for ruining the Yankees by being too cheap to sign him and thus preserve the integrity of the only dynasty New York had to rely on.

="Edgy DC":e41xbywi]Hve to say, he's a douche for picking only facts that suit his sour perspective, but he's right about good people being priced out of both parks.[/quote:e41xbywi] I'd bet anything that some bad people also got priced out of the new stadium. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 10:27 AM No doubt. My only position is that the real enemy is the exclusive system MLB has set up that gives these two teams a shared monopoly to a tri-state area that has far more people than these two serve. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 10:32 AM ="Edgy DC":27rpkhft]No doubt. My only position is that the real enemy is the exclusive system MLB has set up that gives these two teams a shared monopoly to a tri-state area that has far more people than these two serve.[/quote:27rpkhft] Well ... that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Trust me. G-Fafif Apr 15 2009 10:33 AM This reminds me of a column, I don't remember whose, written after Scott Kazmir made his MLB debut in Seattle. The key phrase was something about the Mets blew it, he'd be making his debut at Shea in front of 50,000 if they hadn't. And I was thinking, late in the 2004 season, there's no way Scott Kazmir or anyone short of the Pope draws 50,000 to Shea right now. Not to be statistically literal here, but the idea that if the Mets didn't trade Scott Kazmir his September recall to a lousy team would have generated mass waves of interest (as opposed to an uptick among the curious) was ludicrous. Kazmir became a cause after he was traded. Before, he was a prospect with a moderately high profile among the cognoscenti and no great recognition to the public at large, the kind of thing you'd need to attract the mythic 50,000 to a ballpark solely based on name. A little tangent there, but Matthews paints this "it should be like THIS!" picture knowing damn well it will never be the exact ideal he's decided it will be because, well, it won't. Which is fine except somebody pays him to write that crap. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 10:34 AM No doubt, as well. And probably beyond Wally. SteveJRogers Apr 15 2009 11:01 AM ="G-Fafif":6tnp5x57]The "faithful" did stay to the bitter end at Shea, but there were plenty who were faithless on a given night, skedaddling by the seventh and staying away in droves at the threat of rain. Not saying they didn't have good reasons and responsibilities, but let's not kid ourselves. Spent many an eighth and ninth inning there the last few years in relative solitude.[/quote:6tnp5x57] Excellent point Greg. Not that it excuses that kind of behavior, but it isn't like this is some brand new concept that just started with the new stadium. Hell, it says more about the type of crowd that GOES to opening day than anything to do with the stadiums themselves. I don't have it in front of me, but what did you say about the comparision between the opening day crowd and the closing day crowd? Opening Day is more for those looking to go to an "event" while the closing day is more for the baseball diehards. SteveJRogers Apr 15 2009 11:08 AM ="G-Fafif"]This reminds me of a column, I don't remember whose, written after Scott Kazmir made his MLB debut in Seattle. The key phrase was something about the Mets blew it, he'd be making his debut at Shea in front of 50,000 if they hadn't. And I was thinking, late in the 2004 season, there's no way Scott Kazmir or anyone short of the Pope draws 50,000 to Shea right now. Not to be statistically literal here, but the idea that if the Mets didn't trade Scott Kazmir his September recall to a lousy team would have generated mass waves of interest (as opposed to an uptick among the curious) was ludicrous. Kazmir became a cause after he was traded. Before, he was a prospect with a moderately high profile among the cognoscenti and no great recognition to the public at large, the kind of thing you'd need to attract the mythic 50,000 to a ballpark solely based on name. Also keep in mind, and this is very telling about Wally, the day the trade was announced, he was in full favor of the trade. Soley because he "knew" who Victor Zambrano was (and only because he was a pitcher on a big league roster, whom I think had some success against the MFYs) and "didn't" know a damn thing about Scott Kazmir. His radio partner at the time, Tom Keegan, thought that the Mets should have drafted Jered Weaver in the draft for the same reason. I sent him a spreadsheet chart of the last highly drafted Met's first season's home starts, Paul Wilson, where it showed no real difference in his starts and the rest of the season's attendance figures. Hell, even Darryl Strawberry in 1983 didn't have quite the impact on attendance that one would have thought, if anything Tom Seaver had a bigger impact in 1983. batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2009 11:26 AM At this point, does a Wally Matthews column merit thoughtful analytical review? This is a farce. metirish Apr 15 2009 11:28 AM I thought Wally might be gone when James Dolan bought Newsday but Wally is exactly the kind of moron that Dolan would like. Farmer Ted Apr 15 2009 01:23 PM The guy is so full of optimism it's contagious. Wally Matthews, dog kicker. Ashie62 Apr 15 2009 05:35 PM It ain't Shea.. Kong76 Apr 15 2009 06:48 PM SJR: Hell, it says more about the type of crowd that GOES to opening day than anything to do with the stadiums themselves <<< This was the first opening day I've missed since like 1994 ... what kind of fan was I all those years and what type of crowd did I fall in with? And not to throw it in your face, but I do like to join in on Stevierazzin', you told me that going to opening day with tickets at your disposal was up to a coin flip and I'm guessing you lost ... or did you not want to hang with that type of crowd? I'd say we're both in the unlucky crowd if ya gotta put a type on it. SteveJRogers Apr 15 2009 07:19 PM ="Kong76"]SJR: Hell, it says more about the type of crowd that GOES to opening day than anything to do with the stadiums themselves <<< This was the first opening day I've missed since like 1994 ... what kind of fan was I all those years and what type of crowd did I fall in with? And not to throw it in your face, but I do like to join in on Stevierazzin', you told me that going to opening day with tickets at your disposal was up to a coin flip and I'm guessing you lost ... or did you not want to hang with that type of crowd? I'd say we're both in the unlucky crowd if ya gotta put a type on it. Kase, I was there Monday night, but you darn know that I wasn't talking about me and you, and that I meant the non fan or causal fan. The fan that wouldn't know your handle is a reference to Dave Kingman. The fan that wouldn't know Steve Rogers the ex-Expo from the secret identity of Captain America. Okay, those last references are way too dated, but the point still stands even if we were talking Ryan Howard or Roy Halladay. The fan that couldn't rattle off the names of 5 well known Mets through the years, or worse throw up someone who never played for the Mets (curiously, at lunch today a MFY fan was giving me a hard time about ex-Mets who played for the Yankees and listed Rusty Staub. Yeah, HUH?) The fan who is just there because its an event. It is a place to be seen. Sure there are circumstances where you HAVE to check out early for whatever reason on a weeknight (something Wally failed to mention FWIW), but more often than not, I'm sure, it is that type of "wanna be seen" fan that would leave Opening Day (or night) early. Kong76 Apr 15 2009 07:30 PM Steve with the surprise left. I thought I remembered you were posting in the IGT on Monday but I ain't gonna look. Glad you got there. Rockin' Doc Apr 15 2009 08:29 PM Wally Matthews strikes me as a self absorbed, unenlightened, Yankee shill. The more of his work I subject myself to, the more I end up regretting having done so. Edgy DC Apr 15 2009 08:51 PM After two games, it's a crypt. Of course, at YSIII, that's a good thing. Frayed Knot Apr 15 2009 09:04 PM ="Rockin' Doc":15fno8yn]Wally Matthews strikes me as a self absorbed, unenlightened, Yankee shill. The more of his work I subject myself to, the more I end up regretting having done so.[/quote:15fno8yn] Not a Yanqui shill, merely a self-appointed curmudgeon. And while curmudgeon-ing certainly has a long and useful history in newspapers, as time goes on his version just seems more gimmicky and contrarian than anything else. More schtick, iow, than towards any useful purpose. Kong76 Apr 15 2009 09:11 PM He's a jilted Mets' fan. One of those Sell The Team NOW!!! guys from back in the day. (that's my opinion, I have no evidence, but I'm right) G-Fafif Apr 16 2009 05:14 AM ="SteveJRogers"]or worse throw up someone who never played for the Mets (curiously, at lunch today Whatever the original point of this message, the idea of throwing up someone who never played for the Mets, at lunch, would have to be worse. Particularly with Jerry Coleman in town and Rich Folkers having played for the Mets. metsmarathon Apr 16 2009 08:05 AM lets see... which one looks more like a mausoleum...? Edgy DC Apr 16 2009 08:16 AM The first step is admitting you're a tomb. Rockin' Doc Apr 16 2009 06:00 PM The Indians bury the Yankees under an avalanche of runs in the opening game of YSIII. So Wally, which NY ballpark is a tomb now? Elster88 Apr 16 2009 07:10 PM Seriously though, the house that roids built does look like a prison in that picture. seawolf17 Apr 17 2009 08:43 AM ="Rockin' Doc":7cmgze6l]The Indians bury the Yankees under an avalanche of runs in the opening game of YSIII. So Wally, which NY ballpark is a tomb now?[/quote:7cmgze6l] No kidding. Where's his story about how the place cleared out in the seventh inning yesterday? Ass. Edgy DC Apr 17 2009 08:55 AM How about a "Yesterday sucked, but that's largely because the Yankees have set impossibly high standards" story? Steinbrenner created a monster -- and a ballpark Wallace Matthews 11:27 PM EDT, April 16, 2009 Thanks a lot, Boss. Of all George Steinbrenner's accomplishments of the past 36 years, this is probably the most remarkable. Despite his reputation as an impossible-to-please taskmaster, he has succeeded in transferring the enormous pressure of winning from his players to his sons and his son-in-law, who now inherit the unenviable chore of keeping it alive. And they must do it not just every season, but every day. The seeds of this were planted in 1975, with the signing of Catfish Hunter, his first major free agent, and a year later with Reggie Jackson. Now, with the yearly payroll having ballooned to more than $200 million dollars, the Boss' garden is overgrown. The current Yankees roster is populated with the latest version of Reggie and Catfish, play-for-high-pay guys whose abundance on this team made such a ballpark not just possible, but necessary. It is the Boss' very own Catch-22: You simply can't charge the kind of prices the Yankees do without fielding a high-end roster, and you can't afford a high-end roster unless you charge the kind of prices the Yankees do. And then, they have to win. Yesterday's 10-2 loss to the Cleveland Indians on Opening Day of the third, and by far most opulent, incarnation of Yankee Stadium did more than merely ruin what had begun as a gala occasion. It also raised the specter of something much uglier, and more unthinkable: What if the Yankees revert to the team they were before Steinbrenner, a brash, unknown shipbuilder from Cleveland, stole them out from under the noses of Mike Burke and CBS in 1973 for the now puny sum of $8.7 million? The year before Steinbrenner took over, the Yankees went 79-76 and drew 966,328 people. Now, they are expected to win more than 90 games and draw four million. In fact, they need to, just to remain profitable. If not, empty seats and empty coffers are sure to follow. The seventh inning of yesterday's game, in which the Indians scored nine runs, including a grand slam by Grady Sizemore, gave a glimpse of that very prospect. To that point, what had been a pitchers' duel turned into a total skulldragging. And what had been a large, festive Opening Day crowd turned into an angry mob as disgusted fans headed for the exits. The good news to report is that the wide concourses and many exits make for a smooth and swift exodus, and that the big ballpark is every bit as gorgeous empty as it is full. But that is where the happy talk ends. Simply put, the Yankees, and to a lesser extent, the Mets, can't afford to have too many more days like the ones they gave their fans at their openers this year. This year, the Yankees have spent a league-high $200 million on players and $1.3 billion on the Stadium, the Mets a second-highest $149 million on the roster and $850 million on the crib. (Throw in the $500 million the Wilpons reportedly lost to Bernie Madoff and their number comes pretty close to the Yankees.) That is why, while watching the game yesterday, I tried without success to come up with a sobriquet that would effectively capture this ballpark the way "The House That Ruth Built" defined the old one. I toyed with The House That Jorge Built when Posada, like the Babe 86 years before, hit the first Yankees home run in the new park, but I didn't like the sound of it. If the fill-in third baseman had emerged a hero, I would've gone with The House of Ransom, to symbolize when Steinbrenner held the city hostage in the '90s with his baseless threat to move across the river to Jersey. Had the real third baseman been around, I might have christened the new park The House That Juice Built, but unfortunately, the return of Alex Rodriguez is still several weeks away. And when the ticket prices were originally announced, I had already used my personal favorite, The House That Ruthless Built. In truth, there's only one appropriate name for this ballpark -- The House That George Built. He created it and nurtured it. Now, he leaves it to others to figure a way to keep it filled. PiggiesTomatoes Apr 17 2009 02:53 PM I thought the son-in-law was bounced from management once GSS's daughter filed for divorce??? metsguyinmichigan Apr 17 2009 03:00 PM "skulldragging" What the hell is that? Frayed Knot Apr 17 2009 06:19 PM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Apr 18 2009 08:31 AM ="PiggiesTomatoes":1d5bb52o]I thought the son-in-law was bounced from management once GSS's daughter filed for divorce???[/quote:1d5bb52o] This is son-in-law #3. For years while the brothers were uninterested in having anything to do with the team, older sister's hubby (Joe Molloy) was the guy slated to run things ... then she divorced him. Then the other sister's spouse was anointed as heir-apparent (Steve Swindal) ... then they went splitsville right after he got caught DWI on Valentine's Day at about 4AM). So now this new guy in the mix (Lopez) is first daughter's second husband. Hope you got all that straight cuz there'll be a quiz later. G-Fafif Apr 17 2009 06:22 PM I hear the Yankees suck and Matthews is a tool. OlerudOwned Apr 17 2009 06:53 PM http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mr_met_having_trouble_sleeping_in seawolf17 Apr 21 2009 11:07 AM Look! Wally's picking on the Yankees now! http://www.topix.net/forum/source/newsday/T6ABCQABNDESHS3O8 Well, maybe not. He's picking on Jason Giambi, blaming him exclusively for the MFY's failure to win a WS. Never mind the 209 home runs he hit, or the .900 postseason OPS, or the fact that the REAL thing that all those 2001-2008 seasons have in common are Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, and Mike Mussina, all of whom escape Wally's clutches. (Ignore Jeet's .800 OPS in the postseason since 2001, or Mussina's 5-7 postseason record as a Yankee. It's all Giambi's fault.) Dickhead. Vic Sage Apr 21 2009 11:44 AM ]In truth, there's only one appropriate name for this ballpark -- The House That George Built. In truth, when a German industrialist erects an architectural tribute to the greatness of his folk and the glory of its past, there's only one appropriate name for it -- Nuremberg. G-Fafif Apr 21 2009 12:03 PM I'm a little confused as to why Wally didn't use the occasion of Giambi's visit to blame the Mets for ruining the Yankees by being too cheap to sign him and thus preserve the integrity of the only dynasty New York had to rely on.

I would like to see an outline of workers painting outlines on the new parking lot stenciled onto the new parking lot.

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The link doesn't work either but if you google-image Duffy Dyer, the 24th image is it. Here's the link (4th image) http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&q=duffy+dyer&sa=N&start=20&ndsp=20

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Ya know, you can have more than one person throw out the first ball. Line 'em up in front of the mound I' ve seen that done. I can't get the image to appear but here's a link to Duffy Dyer doing the trick. http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1769717.jpg?size=67&uid={C7F2C389-4403-46C2-B7B1-D29D2F1BA604}

seawolf17 wrote: ="G-Fafif"]="batmagadanleadoff"]The other day, I got out of a cab and left my copy of FAFIF in there. What's worse is that I didn't realize I had misplaced my book until a few hours had passed. Oh, the humanity. Why? Now he has to buy another one. You should wish that we all leave our books in the back of cabs. You stole what was going to be my response to FAFIF's response. Because I will buy that book again.

Gwreck wrote: In fairness to you, I remember Wright hitting his homer in Pittsburgh in the all-whites, and Piazza catching you-know-who in Houston in '04 in the all-whites as well. Although I still would strongly disagree with the sentiment that the all-white is the Mets "dominant" uniform. It's dominant in the sense that, at least in recent years, it's the home uniform that's worn most often. Beginning with 1998, when the Mets added the color black to their uniforms, the pinstripes (classic in '98; with black from '99 to date) were the least worn home uniform style in every single season. I'm pretty sure that your photo of Wagner depicts the only instance when the Mets All-Stars wore pinstripes at a post-'97 AS Game.

="Gwreck"]="batmagadanleadoff"]I'd like to see the pinstripes as well, but I'm not expecting them. The snow whites are the Mets dominant uniform. That's the version their All Stars wear whenever the National League hosts the contest. Not always. You got me. I should've known that because I make it a point to remember uniform details. I wonder if I'm beginning to lose my mind. It wasn't until Livan's first start two days ago that I realized that our pitching Hernandez is not El Duque. And yesterday I had to google (IMDb) a movie to recall the name of an actor that I should recognize instantly. Wanna know what else? The other day, I got out of a cab and left my copy of FAFIF in there. What's worse is that I didn't realize I had misplaced my book until a few hours had passed.

That would make sense.

Gwreck wrote: We already know it'll be the Domino's patch. I do expect to see blue hats and pinstripes, however, or else Charlie Samuels should be fired. I agree. But there were reports (with photographic proof) of the top of the line Mets authentic retail jerseys recently selling in the clubhouse shops with the Rotunda patch. I'd like to see the pinstripes as well, but I'm not expecting them. The snow whites are the Mets dominant uniform. That's the version their All Stars wear whenever the National League hosts the contest.

The Mets were blackless on their first road trip (jersey-wise). Today, we'll find out which patch they wear on their uni sleeves (The Domino' Pizza Patch or the View Through the Rotunda Patch).

I vote for Anthony Young and I'm serious.