The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculation)

[Vic Sage]

they don't deserve Bobby.
Idiots.

[Edgy MD]

metirish wrote: Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2011/11/five_thoughts_on_bobby_valenti.html

That's some awful work organized kind of awfully.

[metirish]

Edgy DC wrote: Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2011/11/five_thoughts_on_bobby_valenti.html That's some awful work organized kind of awfully.

yes, it's awful

Is Bobby V. the right choice? 2. If he manages a team or two that ends its season with a collage of champagne celebrations and duck boat rides, the answer will have to be in the affirmative

a few lines later

Again: Is he the right choice? I doubt even Lucchino and Cherington are certain of that now, particularly the latter, who knew what he was getting into when he accepted the Red Sox' GM job but probably didn't expect to be overruled publicly on his first major decision.

Jesus, I suppose if he wins he's the right choice.

[Edgy MD]

Number two seemed like a re-write of number one.

[Frayed Knot]

Just awaiting the details & confirmation on the Bobby BoSox deal - and on the details of Ventura's contract.
Just five new managers this off-season: two "retreads" (BV & Ozzie), two "newbies" Ventura & Matheny), plus Sveum who is really a newbie although had previously managed briefly as an interim.

TEAM	2011 Mgr	STATUS	2012 Mgr
RED SOX	Terry Francona - since 2004	Option not picked up	=#FF0000]Bobby Valentine - Details TBA
YANX	Joe Girardi - since 2008	Signed thru 2013	Same
ORIOLES	Buck Showalter - since 2010	Signed thru 2013	Same
RAYS	Joe Maddon - Since 2006	Signed thru 2012	Same
BLUE JAYS	John Farrell - Hired Oct �10	Signed thru 2013	Same
TIGERS	Jim Leyland - Since 2006	Signed thru 2012	Same
WHITE SOX	Ozzie Guillen - since 2004	Contract terminated via mutual consent	Robin Ventura - "multi-year" contract
TWINS	Ron Gardenhire - Since 2002	Signed thru 2013	Same
ROYALS	Ned Yost - Since May �10	Signed thru 2012	Same
INDIANS	Manny Acta - Since 2010	Signed thru 2012 + 2013 option	Same
RANGERS	Ron Washington - Since 2007	Signed thru 2012	Same
MARINERS	Eric Wedge - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
A�s	Bob Melvin - hired June �11	Signed thru 2014	Same
ANGELS	Mike Scioscia - since 2000	Signed thru 2018	Same
METS	Terry Collins - first season	Option picked up thru 2013	Same
BRAVES	Fredi Gonzalez - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
MARLINS	Jack McKeon - since 6/20/11	Not re-hired for 2012	Ozzie Guillen - signed thru 2015
NATIONALS	Davey Johnson - took over 6/26/11	Signed w/org but not as manager	Option picked up for 2012
PHILLIES	Charlie Manual - since 2005	Signed thru 2013	Same
CUBS	Mike Quadde - since 2010	Signed thru 1012 - Fired	=#FF0000]Dale Sveum - Signed thru 2014
BREWERS	Ron Roenicke - first season	Signed thru 2012 + �13 option	Same
PIRATES	Clint Hurdle - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
CARDINALS	Tony LaRussa - since 1996	Retired	=#FF0000]Mike Matheny - 2 yrs + 2014 option
REDS	Dusty Baker - since 2008	Signed thru 2012	Same
ASTROS	Brad Mills - since 2010	Signed thru 2012 w/option for �13	Same
DODGERS	Don Mattingly - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
DIAMONDBACKS	Kirk Gibson - hired Aug �10	Signed thru 2012 + �13 option	New deal thru '14 w/options for '15 & '16
GIANTS	Bruce Bochy - since 2007	Signed thru 2012	Extended thru 2013
PADRES	Bud Black - since 2007	Signed thru 2013 + options for �14 & �15	Same
ROCKIES	Jim Tracy - since May �09	Signed thru 2013	Same

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy DC wrote: Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2011/11/five_thoughts_on_bobby_valenti.html That's some awful work organized kind of awfully.

The thing about that piece is that he's reluctant to come right out and say that this will turn out to be a bad choice probably because he, like the non-believer who still attends church regularly, wants to hedge his bets just in case he's wrong. Instead he seems like one of the many who claims to know what Bobby is like by selected anecdotes he has read about from afar so, absent any real evidence of his unfitness, he'll throw those out so as to stake his claim early on.
Glass & mustache reference? - Check.
Compare an off-field marijuana story with recent in-dugout beer problems? - Hey, it kinda fits so I'll run with it.
Smartest guy in the room stories? - Always easy to use plus has the added bonus of not having to prove it.

[metirish]

A valentine for Bobby




http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/dec/01/bobby-valentine-boston-red-sox-mets

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England.

[metirish]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England.

Ha!


must say I am surprised that the Boston fan it seems would rather a paper cut out like Lamont(insert any baseball lifer) over Valentine. With their passion for the game I thought they would latch on to Bobby.

[Vic Sage]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England.

welcome back, WP.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Vic Sage wrote: Mets � Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England. welcome back, WP.

Thanks. But it's MWP now.

[metirish]

[Guest themetfairy]

My Dinner With Bobby

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Mets � Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England. welcome back, WP. Thanks. But it's MWP now.

Do you have, like additional parts now? (But, yeah, seconded.)

[MFS62]

My Dinner With Bobby

Did you serve wraps?
He invented them, y'know.

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201112/new-red-sox-manager-bobby-valentines-odd-food-invention

Later

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Sports coverage from The Nation. As far as I know, Valentine's position in Stamford was mostly ceremonial so I'll take some of this with a grain of salt. Also, Republicans are lousy public servants but great baseball managers.

[Edgy MD]

Even if the job was ceremonial, nothing is merely ceremonial when it comes to Bobby V., as my avatar photo suggests.

Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series.

Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy.

A more level-headed look comes from Matthew Callan at Amazin' Avenue.

[metirish]

Not surprised with Keith Olberman, last night on twitter he seemed to be siding with Chass, like they are buddies or something.

[Edgy MD]

Sawx fans shouldn't be linking to these columns as examples of why their team went wrong, but to celebrate that the move has provoked a wave in the ocean of YLDBs. Let 'em hate.

[Frayed Knot]

Bobby gets a two-year deal with the Sawx plus club options for 2014 & 2015 (making the odds of a Joe Maddon hiring next season not as easy as some Hub fans would like to believe).
Also has chosen to wear #25 for his "friend and old roommate" Tony Conigliaro (sez the NYTimes) although it's not clear exactly where their careers crossed paths.

TEAM	2011 Mgr	STATUS	2012 Mgr
RED SOX	Terry Francona - since 2004	Option not picked up	=#FF0000]Bobby Valentine - Signed thru 2013 + club options for '14 & '15
YANX	Joe Girardi - since 2008	Signed thru 2013	Same
ORIOLES	Buck Showalter - since 2010	Signed thru 2013	Same
RAYS	Joe Maddon - Since 2006	Signed thru 2012	Same
BLUE JAYS	John Farrell - Hired Oct �10	Signed thru 2013	Same
TIGERS	Jim Leyland - Since 2006	Signed thru 2012	Same
WHITE SOX	Ozzie Guillen - since 2004	Contract terminated via mutual consent	Robin Ventura - "multi-year" contract
TWINS	Ron Gardenhire - Since 2002	Signed thru 2013	Same
ROYALS	Ned Yost - Since May �10	Signed thru 2012	Same
INDIANS	Manny Acta - Since 2010	Signed thru 2012 + 2013 option	Same
RANGERS	Ron Washington - Since 2007	Signed thru 2012	Same
MARINERS	Eric Wedge - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
A�s	Bob Melvin - hired June �11	Signed thru 2014	Same
ANGELS	Mike Scioscia - since 2000	Signed thru 2018	Same
METS	Terry Collins - first season	Option picked up thru 2013	Same
BRAVES	Fredi Gonzalez - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
MARLINS	Jack McKeon - since 6/20/11	Not re-hired for 2012	Ozzie Guillen - signed thru 2015
NATIONALS	Davey Johnson - took over 6/26/11	Signed w/org but not as manager	Option picked up for 2012
PHILLIES	Charlie Manual - since 2005	Signed thru 2013	Same
CUBS	Mike Quadde - since 2010	Signed thru 1012 - Fired	=#FF0000]Dale Sveum - Signed thru 2014
BREWERS	Ron Roenicke - first season	Signed thru 2012 + �13 option	Same
PIRATES	Clint Hurdle - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
CARDINALS	Tony LaRussa - since 1996	Retired	=#FF0000]Mike Matheny - 2 yrs + 2014 option
REDS	Dusty Baker - since 2008	Signed thru 2012	Same
ASTROS	Brad Mills - since 2010	Signed thru 2012 w/option for �13	Same
DODGERS	Don Mattingly - first season	Signed thru 2013	Same
DIAMONDBACKS	Kirk Gibson - hired Aug �10	Signed thru 2012 + �13 option	New deal thru '14 w/options for '15 & '16
GIANTS	Bruce Bochy - since 2007	Signed thru 2012	Extended thru 2013
PADRES	Bud Black - since 2007	Signed thru 2013 + options for �14 & �15	Same
ROCKIES	Jim Tracy - since May �09	Signed thru 2013	Same

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: Also has chosen to wear #25 for his "friend and old roommate" Tony Conigliaro (sez the NYTimes) although it's not clear exactly where their careers crossed paths.

Apparently during an abortive comeback with the '76 Pads.

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy DC wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Also has chosen to wear #25 for his "friend and old roommate" Tony Conigliaro (sez the NYTimes) although it's not clear exactly where their careers crossed paths. Apparently during an abortive comeback with the '76 Pads.

Probably a ST deal because Tony C isn't listed as playing in '76
In fact, he had almost no minor league time at all. Dude played one season at Class A as an 18 y/o (in Wellsville, NY?? in 1963) and was in Fenway the next year hitting .290 w/45 XBHs
He continued sailing along (minus that whole missed season and a half thing) knocking 160 HRs by age 25 before his career ended abruptly in the middle of 1971 following an off-season trade to the Angels.
He doesn't re-surface again until four years later back with the BoSox, splitting time between Boston & Pawtucket which represented his only other official minor league service. He was 30 at that point and he never played again.

15 years after that he was dead.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Guest

[metirish]

There's speculation that Buckner might join the staff , he and Bobby are close and have been for years.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy DC wrote: Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series. Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy.

Didn't Abbott tag Rivera in the Timo game the night before?

[Edgy MD]

So he did.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Olberman seems to overlook that Valentine managed the team of back-ups and scrubs into the World Series in the first place.

[HahnSolo]

Edgy DC wrote: So he did.

I was thinking that as I read it.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series. Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy. Didn't Abbott tag Rivera in the Timo game the night before?

Geez, Olbermann is a tool sometimes.

[Guest themetfairy]

My Dinner With Bobby Did you serve wraps? He invented them, y'know. http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201112/new-red-sox-manager-bobby-valentines-odd-food-invention Later

I know. We discussed it in the interview.

[Edgy MD]

My real disappointment that day in Valentine wasn't so much his failure of tactics, but rather his failure in gamesmanship --- a talent that had come to appear to be an asset but on this night he was outgamed by a troll like Clemens.

Clemens had to be ejected, but the umps were too stunned and confused to throw the switch instantly and after that were in recovery mode. Valentine needed to find some way --- with six umps to appeal to and Dean of Discipline Frank Robinson in the box seats near the (I think) first base dugout --- to get Clemens (justifiably) tossed. Whether that meant going apeshit crazy, whether that meant taking your argument individually to each of the six umps, forcing them to eventually confab and make the decision together, whether that meant an unprecedented appeal to Robinson, whether that meant pulling his team off the field and risking a forfeit, he needed to press the point to the brink.

Valentine's priority was keeping Piazza in the game and (sadly and vainly, I think) keeping himself in. And in such, he backed down from Clemens' brinkmanship. Clemens was eventually fined well beyond a level of folks who actually are thrown out of games, so all of baseball officialdom knew they were wrong. Bobby needed to force them to acknowledge it then and there.

Bobby wasn't willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn't willing to sacrifice NLCS MVP Mike Hampton, and so Clemens had him over a barrel and so was rewarded for his villainy.

And so, yeah, I was disappointed in Valentine, but I'm not sure which manager would have done better. The real failure there was the umps, and maybe Robinson not making the bold stroke of superseding them and ordering an ejection.